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What do I do now that I got internship........
Old 24th August 2012
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by AyA View Post
If you can produce one adult with two testicles that is willing to forfeit one of them to learn your wisdom I will do two things. Have you arrested and seriously counsel the poor man...


You are a ****ing bigot. No personal offense intended I'm just making an observation in the kind of tone you write to others. Your attitude is professional when the profession is killing and raping. Go **** yourself in a dark room somewhere where no body else can be harmed by your foul ways.

Thanks for the opportunity to express myself. I hope you have a wonderful day. Aim for my stomach.
I don't understand your attitude - a guy gets what could easily the the career break of his lifetime and asks for advice on how to make the best of it. A few of us with some experience of being around professional recording studios (and other sections of the professional music business) give him some advice on what to do and what not to do so he doesn't blow it.

So why do you guys have to jump in with the negativity, hate, and personal attacks? If you can't be constructive what's your reason for posting at all?

How am I a bigot? I'm encouraging the OP and trying to help him. I'm not slagging his opportunity or the studio business like some people around here are.
Old 24th August 2012
  #32
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Joe Haze's Avatar
 

Keep your eyes open and your mouth shut! You could always do what one of our interns did... First week at the studio, first session with major producer says "hey I think those vocals are out of tune", this clown now has a nice job in a studio. (somehow)
Old 24th August 2012
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRJanuary View Post
A lot of the types of "internships" you guys are talking about are now considered illegal in the US.

The US Dept. of Labor is cracking down. Check out their website.
You cannot legally get people to clean toilets anymore for their "internship."
(unless cleaning toilets is your company's trade)

Of course, consenting adults can make whatever backroom "unpaid employment" agreements they want with each other, but it can no longer legally be called an "internship"

U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Fact Sheet
Yeah, I've been aware of that. It's unfortunate that those guidelines actually work against prospective interns more than they work for them.

The "for credit" provision means that many studios will not consider an intern who is not enrolled in a "recording school", greatly fostering the recording school racket and denying internship opportunities to many otherwise qualified people.

The "job entitlement" clause makes if far LESS likely that an intern will be offered employment at the end of his internship.

A really bad deal for the student.
Old 24th August 2012
  #34
AyA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
How am I a bigot?

The how is easy.

You push your bigotry out with your words.

The why I don't understand.
Old 24th August 2012
  #35
I like these dudes answers friggin hilarious. Don't eat there ass. Speak your mind smoke a b and lay some **** down. That one response was having you do everything but rub em off. F that.
Old 24th August 2012
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AyA View Post
The how is easy.

You push your bigotry out with your words.

The why I don't understand.
Explain that, please?

I have no bigotry, unlike some around here. I do oppose those who would destroy the industry I have spent my life in and love.

Why do you expend all this hate and bile toward those who only want to help someone who is excited about getting his first break in the business?

Why the crazy, blind attacks?

It appears to me that the only real bigot here is you, with your bigotry towards anybody with real experience in the music industry.

Credits, please? If you don't wish to name drop in public, I understand. A PM will be fine.
Old 24th August 2012
  #37
AyA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Explain that, please?

I have no bigotry, unlike some around here. I do oppose those who would destroy the industry I have spent my life in and love.

Why do you expend all this hate and bile toward those who only want to help someone who is excited about getting his first break in the business?

Why the crazy, blind attacks?

It appears to me that the only real bigot here is you, with your bigotry towards anybody with real experience in the music industry.

Credits, please? If you don't wish to name drop in public, I understand. A PM will be fine.

My name is Tim.

My credits are a life time of talking to and listening to other people.

I have lived 28 years.


I have seen people like you before many times. Bigots in disguise.

Offering a helping hand yet the other unseen hand is reaching around for an unwanted feel...


You may not understand why it is you're a bigot, and I will try to help you but it's very difficult. Every time someone argues with you and makes a valid point which you should learn from you don't. You continue on with your own brand of bigotry.

Well, **** you. Please stop it before I feel forced to make you stop.
Old 24th August 2012
  #38
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Quote:
but if they're not paying you and just using you for cleaning & gofer services then letting you go for the next rube...er..'intern'... then they can go fukk themselves.
You a Fullsail grad? That statement reminds me of this Fullsnail grad (intern) who came in to the studio, he wanted us to kick down time in the SSL room "(1k) a day" so he could work on his music.

There was this concept in the ages of old where young Padawan's had to earn their place amongst the Jedi.


I would say give the studio 3 months (free time), you are NOT a slave and just being around sessions you will learn. If you are not moving up the ladder after the three months, either talk to the studio manager or bail.

Or you could tell those slave drivers to **** off open your own studio and....work for free to gain experience...
Old 24th August 2012
  #39
Eat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Haze View Post
You a Fullsail grad? That statement reminds me of this Fullsnail grad (intern) who came in to the studio, he wanted us to kick down time in the SSL room "(1k) a day" so he could work on his music.

There was this concept in the ages of old where young Padawan's had to earn their place amongst the Jedi.


I would say give the studio 3 months (free time), you are NOT a slave and just being around sessions you will learn. If you are not moving up the ladder after the three months, either talk to the studio manager or bail.

Or you could tell those slave drivers to **** off open your own studio and....work for free to gain experience...
It's a bit difficult understanding that first sentence. I think you're saying the intern was asking to use the SSL during down times which is worth 1k in revenue from paying clients.

If that's the case, I'm still gonna say BS. When I was a photography assistant, not only was I paid well.... as a total neophyte in the world of commercial photography.... to be of total service while simultaneously learning to be a good assistant and learning the trade itself.

The only photography experience I had was my love of photography and my own photographing experience. No schools... no fancy degree's.

I was also always given carte blanche over all the use of studio equipment, film, processing and supplies in order to further my own commercial experience and portfolio.

So cut the crap with the phony rationale of 'padawan jedi nonsense'. The fact is that employers all learned to be exploitative cheapskates using this 'they should pay us for the privilege of working here' excuse as a way to justify it.

Facepalm INDEED
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Old 24th August 2012
  #40
AyA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat View Post
The fact is that employers all learned to be exploitative cheapskates using this 'they should pay us for the privilege of working here' excuse as a way to justify it
Employers generally are sociopaths... Employees generally aren't.


The system is rewarding sociopaths too much, sure we need "movers and shakers" or twitchy arseholes to make things happen but they shouldn't get to own everything...
Old 24th August 2012
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat View Post
It's a bit difficult understanding that first sentence. I think you're saying the intern was asking to use the SSL during down times which is worth 1k in revenue from paying clients.

If that's the case, I'm still gonna say BS. When I was a photography assistant, not only was I paid well.... as a total neophyte in the world of commercial photography.... to be of total service while simultaneously learning to be a good assistant and learning the trade itself.

The only photography experience I had was my love of photography and my own photographing experience. No schools... no fancy degree's.

I was also always given carte blanche over all the use of studio equipment, film, processing and supplies in order to further my own commercial experience and portfolio.

So cut the crap with the phony rationale of 'padawan jedi nonsense'. The fact is that employers all learned to be exploitative cheapskates using this 'they should pay us for the privilege of working here' excuse as a way to justify it.

Facepalm INDEED
I don't understand why you're attempting to poison the OP's attitude toward an opportunity that he has been given that most young people starting in the industry would do almost anything to get.

Your experience in photography has nothing at all to do with the situation in recording. There is a huge difference between being trusted with a camera worth a couple of thousand and a console or recorder worth a hundred times that. There's an even bigger difference in the human relations department - a large part of working in a studio successfully is maintaining a professional attitude around clients, something that simply isn't a factor in the photo world and can have huge negative repercussions on a studio's business if something goes wrong with a temperamental high profile client.

The two situations simply don't equate.
Old 24th August 2012
  #42
Eat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
There's an even bigger difference in the human relations department - a large part of working in a studio successfully is maintaining a professional attitude around clients, something that simply isn't a factor in the photo world and can have huge negative repercussions on a studio's business if something goes wrong with a temperamental high profile client.
The two situations simply don't equate.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??? Reeeeeeeeeaaaaaally??

who do you think our clients are/were?? lol

anyway.. no ones trying to poison the op.....

well...any more than slave owners would think their chattel be poisoned by thoughts of emancipation.. heh
Old 24th August 2012
  #43
Eat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Your experience in photography has nothing at all to do with the situation in recording. There is a huge difference between being trusted with a camera worth a couple of thousand and a console or recorder worth a hundred times that.

oh.. one udder ting..

pro equipment ain't cheap. did you know that there is a certain brand of a 10' octagonal umbrella reflector that they use that costs 10K? yes, 10K for a frikken lighting umbrella!! i crapped my pants as well!

back to the point. I notice a lot of comments are all one sided towards all the responsibility of being responsible being shifted onto the intern and none on the studio owner

where's the responsibility of the employer that would even be hiring some numbnuts of the street in the first place. I mean, there is going to be somewhat of a 'gatekeeper' in that who would even be applying for a job like that unless they were schooled nowadays or motivated?

Secondly... what does the price of a console or a camera have to do with anything? Do you think this assistant is going to take a sledgehammer to the thing?? (In which case, refer above to responsible employer not hiring a numbnut in the first place)

What you may be failing to see, is the issue of mutual trust and respect... after a probationary period when the intern has shown themselves to be trustworthy and respectful of equipment, then BY ALL MEANS RETURN THAT TRUST AND RESPECT BY ALLOWING THEM TO USE whatever they want in that it would mean furthering their own portfolio of experience.

oh yeah... AND PAY THEM

Capisce???
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Old 24th August 2012
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat View Post
oh.. one udder ting..

pro equipment ain't cheap. did you know that there is a certain brand of a 10' octagonal umbrella reflector that they use that costs 10K? yes, 10K for a frikken lighting umbrella!! i crapped my pants as well!

back to the point. I notice a lot of comments are all one sided towards all the responsibility of being responsible being shifted onto the intern and none on the studio owner
Wait a minute - the topic was a guy who just got an internship asking what to do to best take advantage of the opportunity. Some of us with industry experience offered him some advice in answer to his question. Then you and others hijacked the thread with your anti-studio, anti-industry diatribes.

You want to talk about how studios are unfairly ripping off the poor little lambs, start your own thread. You're not helping the OP and you're just cluttering up the thread with useless wrangling, bickering, and personal attacks.

Quote:
where's the responsibility of the employer that would even be hiring some numbnuts of the street in the first place. I mean, there is going to be somewhat of a 'gatekeeper' in that who would even be applying for a job like that unless they were schooled nowadays or motivated?
A numbnuts off the street like, oh, a young Ken Scott? Or Bob Ohlssen? or just about any of the "old guard" of great engineers and producers? Those "numbnuts"?

Frankly, most of what gets turned out by many "recording schools" these days are worse than motivated people who have never had the dubious "benefits" of a formal curriculum.

Quote:
Secondly... what does the price of a console or a camera have to do with anything? Do you think this assistant is going to take a sledgehammer to the thing?? (In which case, refer above to responsible employer not hiring a numbnut in the first place)
I'd be more concerned about a Coke or a cuppa coffee. Or dropping a U-47.

Quote:
What you may be failing to see, is the issue of mutual trust and respect... after a probationary period when the intern has shown themselves to be trustworthy and respectful of equipment, then BY ALL MEANS RETURN THAT TRUST AND RESPECT BY ALLOWING THEM TO USE whatever they want in that it would mean furthering their own portfolio of experience.
Well, yeah, that's the general idea. That's the way it's been at most of the major studios I've been around. Glad you agree with me.

Quote:
oh yeah... AND PAY THEM

Capisce???
Well, unfortunately the way US law is currently worded it discourages "graduating" interns to paid employee positions. Kinda screwed up if you ask me.
Old 24th August 2012
  #45
Eat
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

A numbnuts off the street like, oh, a young Ken Scott? Or Bob Ohlssen? or just about any of the "old guard" of great engineers and producers? Those "numbnuts"?
now now... you know that's not what i meant at all... unless, these guys were criminals off the street and were reformed by a kind and generous recording engineer mentor?

(cuz i don't know who these guys are or their biographies.... so sue me) lol


oh year... the other other thing...

threads don't have to go down a narrow hole
Old 24th August 2012
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat View Post
now now... you know that's not what i meant at all... unless, these guys were criminals off the street and were reformed by a kind and generous recording engineer mentor?
Actually it's kinda difficult to determine what you do really mean.

Quote:
(cuz i don't know who these guys are or their biographies.... so sue me) lol
Really? You don't know Ken Scott or Bob Ohlssen (who is a contributor to this very forum)

I guess that explains quite a bit.
Old 24th August 2012
  #47
Eat
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Actually it's kinda difficult to determine what you do really mean.
there ya go... the answer to 42



Quote:
I guess that explains quite a bit.
it doesn't. there is nothing going on specific to your business that isn't just a teensy weensy subset of overall culture and economics.

Seinfeld to George: "I live and breath my friend... I live and breath"
Old 24th August 2012
  #48
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Well, I guess you don't work in the studio business, do you? Or understand anything about it.

What do you think of people paying $81,000 to Full Sail for a "music production course" that only graduates 15% of students and places none of them (although they promise to.)

Don't you think working for free for a year or so where you can actually LEARN something about your craft is better than incurring a lifelong debt for a worthless piece of paper?



Obviously. It's pretty clear you've never spent much time in a real studio.

Let me spell it out to you - it's a test. Somebody who can't be trusted with a simple job like making coffee does not have what it takes mentally to work on an album. Somebody who cannot maintain a positive, attentive attitude when making coffee (or sweeping the floor, etc.) is almost certainly not going to be able to keep it together under the kind of stress that often occurs over the course of a project.

Not to mention the fact that if you do work your way up to being an assistant engineer an awful lot of what you do consists of boring, menial tasks like documenting sessions and aligning tape decks.

And somebody who cannot maintain a PROFESSIONAL ATTITUDE when doing simple, menial jobs in the studio does not understand what it means to have a professional attitude when dealing with clients.

One of the most important things you need in this business is a PROFESSIONAL ATTITUDE. Without that you're nothing.

And believe me, bitching about being taken advantage of when you're being offered an opportunity that hundreds, if not thousands of other people would give their left nut for is a dead certain indication that not only do you not have a professional attitude, the very concept of it is so foreign to you that you wouldn't know it if it sat on your head.

And frankly, the same thing carries over into most businesses - if you have that precious "oh, the young are so exploited" attitude it will stand in your way every time.
Actually I DO work in the studio business so the attempt to discredit me on those grounds without actually responding to the points that I presented isn't going to work.

I agree with you about Full Sail and all these other for profit schools that offer degrees in audio- they are a huge scam. I feel that they really need to be shut down or at least regulated. They can sell you a degree regardless of whether or not there is any demand for this degree in the real world (and it seems that many of them don't even do a good job of teaching the basics that are necessary to work in a studio). But as of now what they are doing is still legal. The unpaid internships are illegal.

In regards to a "professional attitude" I agree that this is an essential quality to have. I disagree that a professional attitude is something that you gain/learn through doing menial work for no pay. In fact the very definition of professional is that you get paid do to something; so therefore doing menial work for no pay is the opposite of professional.

If I were going to make the argument for the value of making coffee, cleaning bathrooms, etc; I would say that they help teach dependability and attention to detail - essential traits for working in a studio. I don't have a problem with boring/menial jobs but again, these skills won't get developed properly if the intern is not paid because there is no value involved for either party - the intern or the employer!

It's no wonder studio owners often complain about crappy interns - you get what you pay for! This culture of "free" seems like it is destroying everything. The kid who has 100,000 stolen songs but doesn't even know what half of them are has the same mentality as the studio owner who doesn't pay his interns for any of the menial labor at the studio because there are thousands of kids willing to jump on the opportunity for free. In both situations there is no value for the hard work of others. Sad really.
Old 24th August 2012
  #49
Eat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
if you don't exhibit a positive attitude and show attention to detail in your menial tasks why should they ever trust you with something important? If you can't even clean a toilet why would they trust you to clean a $100,000 tape machine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh P View Post
If I were going to make the argument for the value of making coffee, cleaning bathrooms, etc; I would say that they help teach dependability and attention to detail - essential traits for working in a studio. I don't have a problem with boring/menial jobs but again, these skills won't get developed properly if the intern is not paid because there is no value involved
wax on... wax off, my friends.... wax on, wax off
Old 24th August 2012
  #50
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Haze View Post
Or you could tell those slave drivers to **** off open your own studio and....work for free to gain experience...
which is exactly what a lot of young graduates end up doing and in the process they undercut and take business away from studios that have been open for years...Everyone is an "engineer" these days right?

It sucks because one of the great benefits of working at a pro studio is that you're surrounded by engineers and producers with years and years of experience who you can learn a lot from.

But if you're just getting started in the industry you have the option of

A.) Moving to a large city with a good studio scene and blowing through whatever savings you have because you don't get paid to make coffee and clean toilets. It's also hard to get a separate job on the side because there is pressure to put in as many hours as possible at the studio to show you are valuable, hard working and worthy of employment; even though in most cases the internship does not turn into a paying gig.
B.) Setting up your own studio and trying to find clients. One of the downsides to this as I mentioned above is that you are isolated and you don't have experienced engineers to learn from since they are your competition. But on the other hand you will be learning THE most essential skills for any engineer or producer these days - finding clients, developing relationships with clients, and maintaining clients.

I'm am not try to specifically discourage the original poster here, however I do want to make the whole situation clear for what it is.
Old 24th August 2012
  #51
Eat
Lives for gear
 

hopefully you're meeting people in the biz as well.... not what you know, who you know, eh
Old 24th August 2012
  #52
Smile

.

This thread title reminds me of a sound designer here who took his 2011 Emmy to the unemployment office a month later.

.
Old 25th August 2012
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh P View Post
Actually I DO work in the studio business so the attempt to discredit me on those grounds without actually responding to the points that I presented isn't going to work.

I agree with you about Full Sail and all these other for profit schools that offer degrees in audio- they are a huge scam. I feel that they really need to be shut down or at least regulated. They can sell you a degree regardless of whether or not there is any demand for this degree in the real world (and it seems that many of them don't even do a good job of teaching the basics that are necessary to work in a studio). But as of now what they are doing is still legal. The unpaid internships are illegal.

In regards to a "professional attitude" I agree that this is an essential quality to have. I disagree that a professional attitude is something that you gain/learn through doing menial work for no pay. In fact the very definition of professional is that you get paid do to something; so therefore doing menial work for no pay is the opposite of professional.

If I were going to make the argument for the value of making coffee, cleaning bathrooms, etc; I would say that they help teach dependability and attention to detail - essential traits for working in a studio. I don't have a problem with boring/menial jobs but again, these skills won't get developed properly if the intern is not paid because there is no value involved for either party - the intern or the employer!

It's no wonder studio owners often complain about crappy interns - you get what you pay for! This culture of "free" seems like it is destroying everything. The kid who has 100,000 stolen songs but doesn't even know what half of them are has the same mentality as the studio owner who doesn't pay his interns for any of the menial labor at the studio because there are thousands of kids willing to jump on the opportunity for free. In both situations there is no value for the hard work of others. Sad really.
Well, it used to be in the old days that you'd hang around, get coffee and sweep floors for a few months and get elevated to better jobs, usually with some compensation. However now that the government has stepped in with their "standards" it actually discourages that natural progression by formalizing the relationship and setting conditions that actually impede advancement. They want the period of internship defined up front, and while that's ostensibly to prevent "perpetual internship" it actually means that the intern is locked into a fixed term as an unpaid intern. And the clause where is says that the internship shouldn't be regarded as a stepping stone to a job means that many studios won't offer an intern a paid position even if they want to. Again, the clause is intended as protection against exploitation but what it actually does is eliminate opportunities for the very people in was intended to protect.

The way it used to be was that a kid who was interested in recording would simply be allowed to hang around the studio on a more or less informal but regular basis "helping out" until he'd get offered a job. Formalizing things has done away with that.

The thing is, what studio owner in his right mind would want to keep some incompetent around just to get free labor and what intern in his right mind would work for an extended period of time in a position that's obviously going nowhere?

It's another shining example of what happens when well meaning government regulators stick their noses into an area in which they are totally ignorant.

Here's a link to an interview where Bob talks about how he got started.
Old 25th August 2012
  #54
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Eat, I agree that employers DO take advantage of interns, that is why setting boundaries as an intern is important. Unless you have a valuable skill don't expect to walk in as an intern and get paid. (I think in California they recently passed a law that says inters must get at least minim wage).

The case with the SSL, the guy expected stdio time during business hours. If the studios were not booked interns were encourages to practice, most never did (pot, drinking, ****ing)...
The issue with the SSL was the fact that mixes would be up overnight. This clown wanted up to just let him have the room at his leisure..



RANT ALERT….


I think audio schools like Fullsail are doing their part to ruin the studio business. I won’t share all of my Fullsail intern horror stories, but it’s what you would expect…(Rich kids with egos and a massive entitlement!).

I know of this one school that charges nearly 30k to teach you how to DJ and sound like Skrillex. They make bank and are ****ing cheesy! Most of the time I am embarrassed to call myself a mixer or producer.
Old 25th August 2012
  #55
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Well, it used to be in the old days that you'd hang around, get coffee and sweep floors for a few months and get elevated to better jobs, usually with some compensation. However now that the government has stepped in with their "standards" it actually discourages that natural progression by formalizing the relationship and setting conditions that actually impede advancement. They want the period of internship defined up front, and while that's ostensibly to prevent "perpetual internship" it actually means that the intern is locked into a fixed term as an unpaid intern. And the clause where is says that the internship shouldn't be regarded as a stepping stone to a job means that many studios won't offer an intern a paid position even if they want to. Again, the clause is intended as protection against exploitation but what it actually does is eliminate opportunities for the very people in was intended to protect.

The way it used to be was that a kid who was interested in recording would simply be allowed to hang around the studio on a more or less informal but regular basis "helping out" until he'd get offered a job. Formalizing things has done away with that.

The thing is, what studio owner in his right mind would want to keep some incompetent around just to get free labor and what intern in his right mind would work for an extended period of time in a position that's obviously going nowhere?

It's another shining example of what happens when well meaning government regulators stick their noses into an area in which they are totally ignorant.

Here's a link to an interview where Bob talks about how he got started.
.

Just to be fair - even in the "good, old days", history is LITTERED with people who hung out in studios and never got ANYWHERE (!)

Hanging out sweeping floors in studios was NEVER any kind of career guarantee.

.
Old 25th August 2012
  #56
Eat
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Haze View Post
Eat, I agree that employers DO take advantage of interns, that is why setting boundaries as an intern is important. Unless you have a valuable skill don't expect to walk in as an intern and get paid. (I think in California they recently passed a law that says inters must get at least minim wage).

The case with the SSL, the guy expected stdio time during business hours. If the studios were not booked interns were encourages to practice, most never did (pot, drinking, ****ing)...
The issue with the SSL was the fact that mixes would be up overnight. This clown wanted up to just let him have the room at his leisure..
Oh Ok... that clarifies the story. No problem. I agree. I was always trustworthy and responsible. I've done jobs out of state at clients company's who've given me the keys and the alarm codes so I can keep working after hours and on weekends.

Not that I necessarily wanted to... I just wanted to get back home faster!
Old 25th August 2012
  #57
Eat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
.Hanging out sweeping floors in studios was NEVER any kind of career guarantee.
funny... that's how a photographer I worked for got his foot in the door.
Old 25th August 2012
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
.

Just to be fair - even in the "good, old days", history is LITTERED with people who hung out in studios and never got ANYWHERE (!)

Hanging out sweeping floors in studios was NEVER any kind of career guarantee.

.
History's littered with millions of people who never got anywhere doing all manner of things.

And there are no guarantees.

Anybody who claims there are is lying.
Old 25th August 2012
  #59
Things would not be such a mess if more people used History's trash can!
Old 26th August 2012
  #60
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Bloody hell. After all that I'm terrified to make any kind of suggestion. Sorry.
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