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This is what real CENSORSHIP and Oppression Looks Like...
Old 27th August 2012
  #211
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No matter what the geo-political positions one can take in arguing for or against this issue, I think we can agree that its fun seeing stuffy news anchors say "Pussy Riot" out loud on TV. I rather enjoyed watching Erin Burnett say it over and over again as I kept hitting the rewind on my DVR.
Old 27th August 2012
  #212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flux Capacitor View Post
No matter what the geo-political positions one can take in arguing for or against this issue, I think we can agree that its fun seeing stuffy news anchors say "Pussy Riot" out loud on TV. I rather enjoyed watching Erin Burnett say it over and over again as I kept hitting the rewind on my DVR.
if only google, wikipedia and the other "black out" sites would do the same on their homepages... don't worry, I won't be holding my breath...
Old 27th August 2012
  #213
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.....um ok.
Old 27th August 2012
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's just funny how it's a burning global issue when it comes to NOT helping musicians against filesharing, but it's NOT a burning global issue when young people are censored by being slapped in prison for releasing a song.
If one considers that "helping musicians against filesharing" was the sole purpose and the entirety of the effect of the proposed SOPA/PIPA bills, then I can see how one could find it strange that Google and Wikipedia would black out their homepages in an effort to raise awareness against this legislation, but would not do so in response to a two-year prison sentence for three Russian political activists. In reality, that was not the sole purpose of those bills, nor would that have been the entirety of their effect, and the scope of these two matters is leagues apart despite a facile similarity of free speech or censorship.
We aren't talking about individual laws here. ...
Some certainly are, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt in asking what then you meant by the "burning global issue not to help musicians" characterization if I am to take that it was not a [distortedly dogmatic] reference to the SOPA/PIPA awareness blackout movement.

With that clarification now requested, I'd say the Pussy Riot reaction has been what could reasonably be described as a burning global issue; news of it has been everywhere (if this is disputed, I'd challenge the disputer to provide any general news site, podcast, program, or newspaper whose mention Pussy Riot has escaped -- basically any news source whose purview could sensibly contain word of Pussy Riot), and the Western reaction has been one of uniform condemnation. If the bar for something to be a big deal is that Google and Wikipedia black out their homepages to raise awareness of it, well -- then I guess there's only been one big deal in the history of humanity. Or maybe it's just not a sensible way to gauge a "burning global issue."
Old 27th August 2012
  #215
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
If one considers that "helping musicians against filesharing" was the sole purpose and the entirety of the effect of the proposed SOPA/PIPA bills, then I can see how one could find it strange that Google and Wikipedia would black out their homepages in an effort to raise awareness against this legislation, but would not do so in response to a two-year prison sentence for three Russian political activists. In reality, that was not the sole purpose of those bills, nor would that have been the entirety of their effect, and the scope of these two matters is leagues apart despite a facile similarity of free speech or censorship.
Well, no. It wasn't just "helping musicians against filesharing". It was also helping movie producers, authors, and all other owners of intellectual property.

And it wasn't just filesharing - it was all types of copyright infringement/IP theft, most notably Google's desire to be able to grab any IP they wanted and put it out for free on Google Books, Google Music, Google Whatever.

The file sharers are just the shock troops. Expendable in Google's long range plan.

OTOH, Google's long range plan has no place for Pussy Riot, or any other real issues of free speech/human rights.

Why don't you guys just admit that you've been on the wrong side and join us?
Old 27th August 2012
  #216
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
I am to take that it was not a [distortedly dogmatic] reference to the SOPA/PIPA awareness blackout movement.
I'm including that, but that's only one incident in a history or ignoring the requests of the creative community, while screaming at anyone who would listen about freedom of speech and people's rights.
Based on previous form, you'd half expect Jimmy Wales to turn up in Moscow and hold a news conference...... but I guess he's on summer vacation.
Old 27th August 2012
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Based on previous form, you'd half expect Jimmy Wales to turn up in Moscow and hold a news conference...... but I guess he's on summer vacation.
Does Jimmy Wales have a strong history of non-internet-related activism? I don't follow him closely, so I honestly don't know -- can you show me some instances of his non-internet activism? My point, after all, is that it's only reasonable to have these expectations described in the quote above above if the expected actors are either relevant to the situation in question, or have a history of activism related to the situation in question.
Old 27th August 2012
  #218
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I personally find it totally hypocritical to see western politicians and media spokesmen condemn Russia over their sentencing of Pussy Riot whilst calling for Julian Assange to be deported to the US to face possible execution for exposing US political and military corruption.

If you really want freedom of speech, which I do, you need to be completely tolerant of everyone's point of view no matter how extreme or offensive it may be and I don't believe most people in this world are anywhere near ready for that.

People, institutions and nations retaliate when they are criticised, insulted or threatened. First we need to understand what causes fear and neuroticism in cultures before attempting to educate people in how to deal with those type of attacks.
Old 27th August 2012
  #219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm including that, but that's only one incident in a history or ignoring the requests of the creative community, while screaming at anyone who would listen about freedom of speech and people's rights.
Based on previous form, you'd half expect Jimmy Wales to turn up in Moscow and hold a news conference...... but I guess he's on summer vacation.
Old 28th August 2012
  #220
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
Does Jimmy Wales have a strong history of non-internet-related activism? I don't follow him closely, so I honestly don't know -- can you show me some instances of his non-internet activism?
He's stated a passion for free information, which arises from his upbringing.
In reality he supports many individuals and causes that he sees as championing freedom of information over control of information.
Also, your suggestion we remove 'the internet' from this debate is rather silly. The internet is a major part of our lives now, so it's quite understandable that activism will take place on the internet, and thru the internet, rather than in newsprint or on tv alone.
Old 28th August 2012
  #221
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Funny, anytime someone says something really bad about Obama, they are automatically labeled a "racist". Two sides to every pancake...

Quote:
He's stated a passion for free information, which arises from his upbringing.
In reality he supports many individuals and causes that he sees as championing freedom of information over control of information.
Also, your suggestion we remove 'the internet' from this debate is rather silly. The internet is a major part of our lives now, so it's quite understandable that activism will take place on the internet, and thru the internet, rather than in newsprint or on tv alone.
It's called treason, stealing a countries classified documents and distributing them.

Chris, Australia would lock you up in heartbeat if you stole your countries secrets too...
Old 28th August 2012
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levelgain View Post
I personally find it totally hypocritical to see western politicians and media spokesmen condemn Russia over their sentencing of Pussy Riot whilst calling for Julian Assange to be deported to the US to face possible execution for exposing US political and military corruption.

If you really want freedom of speech, which I do, you need to be completely tolerant of everyone's point of view no matter how extreme or offensive it may be and I don't believe most people in this world are anywhere near ready for that.

People, institutions and nations retaliate when they are criticised, insulted or threatened. First we need to understand what causes fear and neuroticism in cultures before attempting to educate people in how to deal with those type of attacks.
Assange wont be executed if he's extradited here. No European nation would extradite him if there was even a slim possibility of the death penalty. Anyway I have little sympathy for Assange. Manning yes, he and the ones who take the risk and do the actual work for Wikileaks are far more deserving of support than Assange. Assange is only interested in promoting himself.
Old 28th August 2012
  #223
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everyone tailor freedom of speech to suit him,its sad.finnish freedom speech is not the usa one the same as russia censorship is not the syrian one or Saudi Arabia.i mean pussy riot com'on,kids are getting egorged like sheep in syria with russia help and the world is watching.there a reason why russia never succeded to be the first power.she's too evil,over the tolerated level.
Old 28th August 2012
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
Does Jimmy Wales have a strong history of non-internet-related activism? I don't follow him closely, so I honestly don't know -- can you show me some instances of his non-internet activism? My point, after all, is that it's only reasonable to have these expectations described in the quote above above if the expected actors are either relevant to the situation in question, or have a history of activism related to the situation in question.
He's stated a passion for free information, which arises from his upbringing.
In reality he supports many individuals and causes that he sees as championing freedom of information over control of information.
Okay, so I ask again: can you show me some instances where he acts as an activist for an issue unrelated to the internet? My contention -- based on my likely incomplete view of his activity -- is that all his causes are related to the internet and internet-based communications. As I say in the above quote: if he hasn't spoken out of behalf of Pussy Riot, I wouldn't be surprised, because Pussy Riot's oppression is unrelated to internet issues. If you can show me some instances of his championing some causes unrelated to the internet, I will cede to your view that there could be an expectation that he would speak publicly on behalf of Pussy Riot (I'm sure he is privately sympathetic with them, regardless, but this discussion is over public actions).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Also, your suggestion we remove 'the internet' from this debate is rather silly. The internet is a major part of our lives now, so it's quite understandable that activism will take place on the internet, and thru the internet, rather than in newsprint or on tv alone.
I can't even begin to understand what this passage means: "suggestion to remove 'the internet' from this debate"? I have a hard time coming up with any interpretation of my remarks in this thread that could lead to this kind of summation. My entire point throughout this thread has been that it's delusional to think that Google or Wikipedia is hypocritical for blacking out their homepages to raise awareness for SOPA/PIPA but not for Pussy Riot, as has been so repeatedly suggested:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
can anyone tell what day the internet censorship protest is going to be on to heighten awareness of actual censorship as opposed the google imagined kind?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
so where's the great internet protest and black out for solidarity in response to this censorship?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
agreed. but do let me know when the big internet/google sponsored protest is going to be, I want to make sure I'm ready with all those google and wikipedia approved anti-censorship logos and graphics...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
just let me know when that big internet protest is going to take place in opposition to ACTUAL censorship and oppression as opposed to the imagined Google variety...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
just let me know when that big internet protest is going to take place in opposition to ACTUAL censorship and oppression as opposed to the imagined Google variety...
still waiting...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
just let me know when that big internet protest is going to take place in opposition to ACTUAL censorship and oppression as opposed to the imagined Google variety...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
sorry... when is that big internet protest is going to take place in opposition to ACTUAL censorship and oppression as opposed to the imagined Google variety... so funny... actual censorship... nadda... imagined (fabricated) censorship... hire lobbyists and have a web black out to illustrate what censorship and oppression looks like...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
no, the point of this thread is to highlight the fact that the very people who claimed to have had an overwhelming interest in censorship in January ... don't seem to have the same level of interest in actual censorship when it really does happen. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
nothing fallacious about it... just me know know when they are blacking out their homepage in support of the bands situation ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
if only google, wikipedia and the other "black out" sites would do the same on their homepages... don't worry, I won't be holding my breath...
Now, I know you said you were "slightly sympathetic" to this delusion, so it may be that my rationality in making this point is wasted on you. I have cleanly made my case several times now, so if you are confused I may simply recommend re-reading my body of posts throughout this thread.
Old 28th August 2012
  #225
Again, there is virtually nothing in modern society regarding freedom of speech and censorship that does NOT have an element of the internet.
What is it you are not getting when i say Wales states he is passionate about free information and it's sharing (regardless of whether it's on the net or not)?
Quote:
So just to sort of address the big one, which is Google is in China, Yahoo! is in China, so what do we say about that? Well, what I say about that is going in and dealing with information in China right now is very similar to doing business in apartheid in South Africa. There’s something really wrong. There’re human rights violations going on. And people used to argue back and forth about whether it was better to boycott or to constructively engage. In other words, to be there, but operate under a certain set of principles that would encourage change and positive things to happen. I think that both sides of that argument can be made by reasonable people. I tend more to the boycott side of things, but I accept and understand that, of course, there are legitimate points on the other side, and it actually can help in a lot of cases. So Google basically makes that constructive engagement argument. To say, “Well, look. The Chinese people are better off with us being there trying to be a positive force for change than if we simply boycotted the country.” Okay, I accept that, right? That’s a legitimate thing to say. But I think what we should do is hold Google’s feet to the fire and say, “Well, what are you doing there? What’re you doing to help?” And Google has some answers for that. I mean, one of the things that they do is they don’t store any user data within China. They keep all user data. They don’t have Gmail servers in China, things like that. That’s so that they can’t be compelled to cough up people’s information in China. Well, that’s very important. There’re people in jail in China because Yahoo! has coughed up information about them. Yahoo!’s answer is, “Well, we have to follow the law in China.” My answer is, “Yeah. Sorry, that doesn’t cut it with me.
http://bigthink.com/ideas/1067

So what does he think about doing business in Russia?
Old 28th August 2012
  #226
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around the world says:
endless quotes from Rack Gear

*yawn*
Old 28th August 2012
  #227
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Just an update. Two Pussy Riot members escaped Russia, and plan to spread their message globally. I wish them the absolute best! But to continue with the thread theme...

I feel this is more of a human issue than a political issue, although it's a fuzzy area to wade around in.

Being put in jail for 2 years for what they did seems UNJUST for anyone in the world. Also, this type of justice seems obviously very corrupt and non-impartial.

Political Issue: Even though I don't agree with the government that cuts off the hand of a thief, I can see that there's a certain amount of fairness there, and I can understand a group of citizens being okay with that. I will disagree, and fight to keep it out of my country, but I will mostly stay out of that countries affair regarding that issue.

Human Issue: On the other hand (no pun intended), is a government that would mutilate the female genitalia so that the girl grows to never feel pleasure. This is something I find to be absolutely barbaric and not right for anyone in the world. This is an issue where I wish to reach out and help my fellow human being, who is in a situation where they are powerless.
Old 28th August 2012
  #228
Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundtheworld View Post
Now, I know you said you were "slightly sympathetic" to this delusion, so it may be that my rationality in making this point is wasted on you. I have cleanly made my case several times now, so if you are confused I may simply recommend re-reading my body of posts throughout this thread.
I'm just waiting for the great internet blackout to protest against censorship when it's actually about censorship and not corporate profits... which is the point of this thread. I'm also trying to keep in on topic. Thanks.
Old 28th August 2012
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flux Capacitor View Post
Assange wont be executed if he's extradited here. No European nation would extradite him if there was even a slim possibility of the death penalty. Anyway I have little sympathy for Assange. Manning yes, he and the ones who take the risk and do the actual work for Wikileaks are far more deserving of support than Assange. Assange is only interested in promoting himself.
I agree mostly, but regardless of whether you sympathise with him, Assange is culpable under US law and would receive at very least a lengthy prison sentence for his involvement in the distribution of the material, which is an example of US censorship law to protect its own interest (and I can think of many other examples of unjust oppression).

Anyway, I'm just trying to demonstrate that in the grand scheme of things there really isn't that much difference between Russia and any other nation. I mean, how difficult would it be to get arrested and thrown in jail for offensive behaviour in any city?
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