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Billy Corgan - No Money In Music Now
Old 27th June 2012
  #1651
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Tashez's Avatar
 

True ! now you have to make it by Playing music . Just like thary did in the 70s
Old 28th June 2012
  #1652
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I think the Smashing Pumpkins is a pretty good band. I also think he has some good points...

Last edited by Wolf LeProducer; 28th June 2012 at 04:52 AM.. Reason: well you know.. rockin and rollin and tokin and ballin and smokin and falling and walkin and crawlin
Old 28th June 2012
  #1653
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Well, as he said himself, "The world is a vampire". I think the idea that his music was only relevant to a given audience at a given period is something he can't allow himself to beleive and that the people around him, who profit from his ventures, certainly can't be expected to help him on that front.

So I guess it's all aboard the Billy Train!
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Billy Corgan - No Money In Music Now-billychu.gif  
Old 29th June 2012
  #1654
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Oceania is by fair their best album since Siamese in my opinion, there are a few howlers (as on every Pumpkins album), but there are some good songs on it, the same with what's been released on Teargarden so far. Oceania is the album they should have come back with in 2007, instead of Zeitgeist.
Old 30th June 2012
  #1655
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Playing piano at Glenn Gould's level, or cello like YoYo Ma is easily comparable to brain surgery. IMO, probably more skilled.

Plenty of average surgeons around who can't fix a bone right, and someone ends up with an inferior arm or leg for their whole life; or guys who regularly don't remove a tumor properly...even though they've been doing it for years...they get away it by "oh well we're working with natural phenomena, sometimes it just doesn't work out"...I wish I could've used that line in my diploma exams when I ****ed up a phrase...

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking surgeons, I know someone who's life was saved just because he had an aneurism from a tumor in a city where one of the top brain surgeons happened to be in. He was on holiday there...operation cost 100s of thousands of dollars. They told him if it had happened anywhere else he probably would've died.
I'm just saying that qualifying as a general surgeon isn't much more than a piano player with a BA...difference is, one will walk out of college with a career.)
Old 9th July 2012
  #1656
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I've been a Smashing Pumpkins fan for a long time and I enjoy most of Corgan's material. I admire his ability and willingness to cover a lot of ground musically, from heavy to light, rock, pop, electronica, etc... It's interesting to note that on an internet pole a large majority of voters considered the Smashing Pumpkins as the best band of the nineties, and I can't say that I disagree. Butch Vig, Alan Moulder, and countless others can attest to Billy's musicianship, focus, and work ethic and I don't doubt those things. Having said that, I do think that Corgan was very fortunate to have the pinnacle of his musical creativity coincide with the social context of the 90's. The planets were in alignment for Corgan and he was able to achieve astronomical success with the Pumpkins. I don't care much for his new material, and although I think Corgan is extemely talented, I don't think the new stuff would have been well recieved in 93'. I do agree with Corgan in regards to the unwillingness of people to pay for music. Unfortunately, we now live in a world in which people expect to be instantly entertained for free with the click of a button. I really do believe that the internet, and all things related, has changed the way people think and function. Some important values (patience and privacy come to mind) are dwindling, and having the world at our fingertips has made many spoiled and jaded. Having said that, I do become irritated by Corgan's pessimistic "poor me, poor us" mentality and would like to see him acknowledge the fact that he is very fortunate to have made a successful career doing what he loves. There is a large majority of people out there working 9-5 jobs which they absolutely hate to support their musical endeavors. These people could work their 9-5 jobs for a hundred years and never make one tenth of the money Billy has made. That's all.
Old 9th July 2012
  #1657
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Billy is still just mad about high school.

Its just a different group taking his lunch money now...
Old 9th July 2012
  #1658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psufilm View Post
These people could work their 9-5 jobs for a hundred years and never make one tenth of the money Billy has made. That's all.
I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Corgan has his own set of money problems. Its easy to mismanage those large amounts, and wind up just as poor as when you started.

I guess royalties.. From the publishing rights.


Still, I very much agree with your post; sentiments on the web, and people in general. I guess they don't feel like supporting music, but perhaps music is just so easy to listen to, and get for free.

Given the option, of walking off with a Porsche and having no consequence for these actions; the same people not paying for music would drive away.

IMO... That's a lot of people
Old 9th July 2012
  #1659
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Whether Billy's speaking the truth or a load of codswallop, at least he's getting people out there talking.
Old 9th July 2012
  #1660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf LeProducer View Post

Given the option, of walking off with a Porsche and having no consequence for these actions; the same people not paying for music would drive away.

IMO... That's a lot of people
That analogy is way off the mark man; besides the huge monetary difference, and the whole question of means/desire, the psychological context is completely different. Many people download stuff to listen to it once and delete it or leave it there and never listen to it again...this is stuff they otherwise would never have bought, nor desired to own...a better one might be, take it for a spin around the block and leave it back afterwards, and then moan to their mates that the gearbox was a bit stiff; the nerve!
Old 9th July 2012
  #1661
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Besides, these kind of "let's get to the bottom of this, and tell the people what it's really like" talks by these established musicians are always just attention seeking. He's just trying to pick up a few more Twitter followers...meh.
Old 10th July 2012
  #1662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
...Many people download stuff to listen to it once and delete it or leave it there and never listen to it again...
and that's exactly why music has been reduced to not much more than a background soundtrack today, that most people experience while actually doing something else. (instead of the having the respect and reverence they once had for it.) the value of the art form itself has been reduced to the equivalent of a condiment.

things that have monetary value are treated as such; they're respected and/or cherished.

things that are free become automatically disposable and unimportant.
Old 10th July 2012
  #1663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sound_music View Post
and that's exactly why music has been reduced to not much more than a background soundtrack today
I think it's more that the quality of A LOT music around these days isn't much better than a background soundtrack...

Don't forget they had music radios throughout the last century: this was music obtained for free, and was experienced mostly "in the background"...
Old 10th July 2012
  #1664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
I think it's more that the quality of A LOT music around these days isn't much better than a background soundtrack...
in your personal opinion.

i happen to think there's more great music being produced today than ever; the good stuff's just a lot harder to find under the mountain of free garbage, which is also being produced in greater quantity than ever before. (you see where i'm going with this... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
Don't forget they had music radios throughout the last century: this was music obtained for free, and was experienced mostly "in the background"...
except you left out 2 uber important differences: radio was in the moment, listeners didn't have repeatable and unlimited access to the music like they do with free mp3s and streaming: unless they bought the records they liked. radio used to drive transactional sales. that's no longer the case unfortunately for artists and labels.

for many, that means their life's work has been reduced to a playlist on some soccer mom's ipod that she'll listen to maybe once while playing tennis, and never really appreciate: and certainly will never pay for. a lofty aspiration for the art form (and artist) indeed!
Old 10th July 2012
  #1665
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Sorta; problem is the money isn't there for the kind of studio time of yesteryear...that's what I meant though, saturation, quantity, and lower quality...

They're not uber, let's not forget the 90s was a massive blip in the history of the record industry; boom time, not a normal model...

Not that many people bought that much music in the 60s/70s/80s, probably not much more than is bought now...just that it's more diffuse.

The big problem, in terms of monetization, is that the conduit that you receive free music through, doesn't pay licensing for it.

People will reduce your music to whatever they want, regardless of whether they paid for it or not...
Old 10th July 2012
  #1666
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
Sorta; problem is the money isn't there for the kind of studio time of yesteryear...that's what I meant though, saturation, quantity, and lower quality...

They're not uber, let's not forget the 90s was a massive blip in the history of the record industry; boom time, not a normal model...
I disagree... here's 1973 - 2008...



the years correspond to excel row numbers, the graph represents 36 years of data 1973 - 2008.

Excel graphed the years as follows:

1973 is plot point "1"

1979 is plot point "7"

1999 is plot point "27"

2008 is plot point "36"



data source: http://musicbusinessresearch.files.w...obal-sales.jpg

so it looks like the economy and consumer competition really isn't that big of a factor after all, again, looking at 36 years of data... the 90's may have been the peak, but that's only because of the illegal exploitation of content without compensation that began at the turn of the century.

remember that each decade saw it's own added consumer competition...

the 70s saw the initial release of VCRs and Video Cassettes as well as video game consoles and cartridges,

the 80s
saw home video boom as VHS matured, cable tv boomed, new types of youth sports took hold,

the 90s saw the introduction of DVDs, home computers became household items, people started paying for internet service, and cell phones began to be common place...

and yet through each one of those decades (without rampant online piracy) sales grew steadily until broadband reaches ubiquity at the turn of the century...

then, the sales plummet.
Old 10th July 2012
  #1667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
let's not forget the 90s was a massive blip in the history of the record industry; boom time, not a normal model...
that's a common misconception. (often regurgitated by piracy advocates. *not accusing you, just pointing out the fact!) the 90s was more likely the tail end of the steady growth of the industry up until broadband internet access became commonplace, and it became a socially acceptable norm to steal music.

(have a look at the numbers provided by rack gear above; correlate them with data that shows broadband penetration over the same timeframe and they tell most of the story.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
The big problem, in terms of monetization, is that the conduit that you receive free music through, doesn't pay licensing for it.
sure, that's a big problem. agreed.

but the whole sales thing is kind of a big problem too, don't you think?
Old 10th July 2012
  #1668
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Interesting graph, thanks.

It pretty much correlates to what I said...OK, the peak isn't quite as massive as I had imagined...but note that it had already leveled off by the mid-90s, that's not internet piracy causing that. Even consumer CD burners weren't commonplace by then either...

OK, you can see where Napster hits. But there's already a plateau before, part of that decline is to do with other factors (consider all the 'consumer competition' you just mentioned, that was concurrently reaching new heights; also that mid-90s was peak-MTV...record sales had other adversaries). And, like I said, it's not THAT far off the the mid-80s now...now, obviously there's a population increase that's not being taken into account.
I still think the reason artists aren't making the money they used to is less to do with record sales, and more to do with the decline of radio/MTV and a host of other factors (like an increasing number of artists in general and access to free-music etc)...

Anyway, I'm not going to pretend I know the answers. But I think the record sales point is exaggerated, and I certainly don't like when I hear it used as a reason to justify mass-censorship on the internet.

Yeah of course it's a big problem, but that's just a massive change in society...the internet is undermining/changing everything else in retail too.
Old 10th July 2012
  #1669
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
Interesting graph, thanks.

It pretty much correlates to what I said...OK, the peak isn't quite as massive as I had imagined...but note that it had already leveled off by the mid-90s, that's not internet piracy causing that. Even consumer CD burners weren't commonplace by then either...
there was no leveling off... I'm not sure where you are getting that from... there was a slow, consistent build over 36 years...

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
OK, you can see where Napster hits. But there's already a plateau before, part of that decline is probably to do with other factors (consider all the 'consumer competition' you just mentioned,that was concurrently reaching new heights...also mid 90s was peak-MTV). And, like I said, it's not THAT far off the the mid-80s...and obviously there's a population increase that's not being taken into account. I still think the reason artists aren't making the money they used to is less to do with record sales, and more to do with the decline of Radio/MTV and a host of other factors like an increasing number of artists in general and access to free-music etc...

Anyway, I'm not going to pretend I know the answers. But I think the record sales point is exaggerated, and I certainly don't like when I hear it used as a reason to justify mass-censorship on the internet.
1) the sales point is not exaggerated losing 8 billion dollars (50% of the Industry) in less than 10 years and

2) there is no mass-censorship on the internet that has ever been proposed so I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

you appear to be confused between the difference of the freedom of expression and the illegal exploitation of that express for profit, they are not the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
Yeah of course it's a big problem, but that's just a massive change in society...the internet is undermining/changing everything else in retail too.
sorta, maybe... if best buy is closing stores because people are buying electronics from amazon... than amazon is making the money and the value chain for everyone other than the retailer is preserved.

when music is distributed illegally ONLY the distributor of that illegal distribution is being compensated and no one else in the value chain is.

there are no lost sales, every illegal download is paid for, either in subscriptions at file lockers, or in advertising revenue, or both... but none of that revenue is being distributed to the creators, and that's the difference.

this will give you more insight...

Artists, Know Thy Enemy – Who’s Ripping You Off and How… | The Trichordist

If the Internet is working for Musicians, Why aren’t more Musicians Working Professionally? | The Trichordist
Old 10th July 2012
  #1670
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post

I think the big labels have been hit the least, and they're blaming it on this and that, and using it as an excuse to pay their artists less, who in turn go on to moan about it because they have to tour more now to support their lifestyle...Jimi spent most of his life on the road...
Every post you write is centered on your own theory and virtually nothing on actual experience.
Are you running an indie label? Do you have something you created pirated? Have you spent most of your life 'on the road'?
Old 10th July 2012
  #1671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sound_music View Post
the 90s was more likely the tail end of the steady growth of the industry up until broadband internet access became commonplace, and it became a socially acceptable norm to steal music.
It's probably a whole other discussion, but it'd be interesting to know what would have happened in the early 2000s if broadband was still five years away say.
Old 10th July 2012
  #1672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Every post you write is centered on your own theory and virtually nothing on actual experience.
Are you running an indie label? Do you have something you created pirated? Have you spent most of your life 'on the road'?
Hence, prefaced w/ "I think"...this is a discussion; not an academic paper, right?

And, most of my posts were replies...as opposed to statements, do you reference all your replies?
Old 11th July 2012
  #1673
Yeah, but you are making all kinds of assumptions about independent labels, and what musicians should be doing.

So, you aren't running an indie label, you haven't produced anything that has been shared against your wishes, you haven't extensively toured over several years?

You didn't say "I think Jimi spent most of his life on the road".
Old 11th July 2012
  #1674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
I disagree... here's 1973 - 2008...



the years correspond to excel row numbers, the graph represents 36 years of data 1973 - 2008.

Excel graphed the years as follows:

1973 is plot point "1"

1979 is plot point "7"

1999 is plot point "27"

2008 is plot point "36"



data source: http://musicbusinessresearch.files.w...obal-sales.jpg

so it looks like the economy and consumer competition really isn't that big of a factor after all, again, looking at 36 years of data... the 90's may have been the peak, but that's only because of the illegal exploitation of content without compensation that began at the turn of the century.

remember that each decade saw it's own added consumer competition...

the 70s saw the initial release of VCRs and Video Cassettes as well as video game consoles and cartridges,

the 80s
saw home video boom as VHS matured, cable tv boomed, new types of youth sports took hold,

the 90s saw the introduction of DVDs, home computers became household items, people started paying for internet service, and cell phones began to be common place...

and yet through each one of those decades (without rampant online piracy) sales grew steadily until broadband reaches ubiquity at the turn of the century...

then, the sales plummet.
I remember seeing this graph earlier in this thread.

Has anybody done a study measuring the degree of statistical association between broadband penetration and retail sales of music among various age groups? Or is there some publically data that would show the amount of increased website activity for piracy sites that could be measured against decling record sales?
Old 11th July 2012
  #1675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yeah, but you are making all kinds of assumptions about independent labels, and what musicians should be doing.

So, you aren't running an indie label, you haven't produced anything that has been shared against your wishes, you haven't extensively toured over several years?

You didn't say "I think Jimi spent most of his life on the road".
Maybe the truth hurts or something man, but I haven't said anything that has not been said before...why not just take me up on a point you disagree with in discussion rather than trying to discredit my opinion because "I haven't lived it"...from what I've read you're a studio drummer/session musician (or is that another Chris Whitten?), that's not exactly at the forefront of the music scene either, no offence...do you actually have many royalties on the projects you've worked on?

FWIW, my uncle worked around the music industry most of his life...I never said something like "my record was stolen, poor me", so I'm not sure what your problem is.

Read that; never met the fellow unfortunately...do you disagree?
Old 11th July 2012
  #1676
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sound_music's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Poet View Post
It's probably a whole other discussion, but it'd be interesting to know what would have happened in the early 2000s if broadband was still five years away say.
for sure... unfortunately we'll never know. (but i'd hazard an educated guess the growth trend would have continued--population increase alone would have more or less guaranteed that...)
Old 11th July 2012
  #1677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sound_music View Post
for sure... unfortunately we'll never know. (but i'd hazard an educated guess the growth trend would have continued--population increase alone would have more or less guaranteed that...)
Are you all just living in denial or are you basing your assumptions on another graph? The growth trend plateaus and begins to decline at 96...pre-Napster...
Old 11th July 2012
  #1678
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...I would like to mention, I think, some great art (many of my favorite albums in fact) came out of the big labels/big studio paradigm that just couldn't of happened independently; same goes for (even more so) cinema...so I'm not against the whole thing.
Old 11th July 2012
  #1679
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
2) SOPA.

No confusion at all.
no, you are confused. there was nothing about censorship. you are confusing the right to expression with WANTING to illegally exploit that expression for profit. those are two very different things...
Old 11th July 2012
  #1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
I don't agree with companies like Rapidshare (Megaupload and all that stuff), or YouTube making money out of stolen goods; but I don't like when some student or individual is prosecuted for sharing a few dozen MP3s.
two people... TWO have been prosecuted for "sharing." and BOTH could have settled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilision View Post
Yeah of course, but it's kinda complicated, because, for example, you have small local shops/craftmakers etc. that have been wiped out by the internet; that's the same (worse in some cases) as how the independent labels/bands have been hit etc.

I totally agree with your whole stance on Tunecore and all that. Parasites.

I think the big labels have been hit the least, and they're blaming it on this and that, and using it as an excuse to pay their artists less, who in turn go on to moan about it because they have to tour more now to support their lifestyle...Jimi spent most of his life on the road...
respectfully, I'd like to know what you base these opinions on... you don't lose 50% of an industry in a decade and have it not effecting everyone...
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