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Billy Corgan - No Money In Music Now
Old 6th June 2012
  #1591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm often disagreeing because I've been a professional musician all my adult life, and a drummer too. I find myself most often disagreeing with hobbyists and the vaguely interested who as a collective seem to think being in a band is 'easy', writing a hit song is 'easy', making lots of money as a musician while mostly partying is 'easy'.
If so many, with so little real experience, but so much to say, would stop posting these myths, I;'d stop disagreeing with them.
Postscript: drumming as a we know it in popular music, not as parroted by soccer moms - is NOT easy.
And yet when I posted the very same thing regarding playing drums professionally you stated that it wasn't true. Here's my emoticon:
Old 6th June 2012
  #1592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Podgorny View Post
Judging by Lenny's taste in drummers, it will be one of the aforementioned soccer moms.
You don't think Cindy Blackman is good?
Old 6th June 2012
  #1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
You don't think Cindy Blackman is good?
You're having a bad day.
I think he was talking about female drummers being favoured by Kravitz (hence soccer moms).
Old 6th June 2012
  #1594
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
And yet when I posted the very same thing regarding playing drums professionally you stated that it wasn't true.
Wrong.
I posted that it wasn't true that 'only a few' were talented enough to drum at a professional level.
If someone will pay you, you can drum at a professional level whatever your talent and skill (sadly).
Let's just say, being an accomplished kit drummer is very hard work, at either hobbyist or professional level.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust Creep View Post
Billy looks like Uncle Fester on crack and can't sing.. he can't make millions because his 15 are up.
Exactly.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Wrong.
I posted that it wasn't true that 'only a few' were talented enough to drum at a professional level.
If someone will pay you, you can drum at a professional level whatever your talent and skill (sadly).
Let's just say, being an accomplished kit drummer is very hard work, at either hobbyist or professional level.
If we're going to parse words to that degree let's not edit my post. I said "relatively few." Again I return to the number of kids in middle school, junior high, and high school who pick up sticks and hit drums. How many of them will ever be good enough to do it for a living? I'd say relatively few is a good description. What descriptor would you use instead?
Old 6th June 2012
  #1597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
You're having a bad day.
I think he was talking about female drummers being favoured by Kravitz (hence soccer moms).
I think he could be talking about that also. But since to my knowledge Blackman is the only female drummer to play with Lenny and he has had a few male drummers, he could also mean something else. That's why I asked him for clarification. Thanks for inserting yourself, though.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1598
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doorknocker's Avatar
About 4 weeks ago I set up a Spotify Premium account. Frankly, I'm totally amazed how quickly it changed my CD purchase habits.Up till now I bought tons of CDs, often clearly spending more than I really should, of course I will hold on to these CDs.

But Spotify so far has been a fantastic experience for me: Constant discoveries and in fact I concentrate more on really listening to stuff as opposed to multi-tasking. I listen through my studio setup with UA 2192 converters and then there's also the offline mode which works great on the iPad when I'm away from home.

Example: BeBop Deluxe is a band that I vaguely heard and read about pretty much for decades. Time to check it out now, sure it's there on Spotify and I'm blown away how great they were, amazing guitar work too!

But while my conscience is clear by paying the monthly fee for the Premium account I also wonder how you can make money with it. Most of the new albums are there right away and I found many older albums that are not easily available on CD anymore.

So far, my reasoning is that it's a kind of glorified radio where YOU are in charge of the playlist. It's certainly also a great way to reach out and promote new music. But it's also clear - and that's where I 100% agree with Billy Corgan - that you need to find new ways to sell your 'product' and I think it's about packaging in a way that makes your fans reach for the wallets.

I will continue to buy CDs (as long that they're still around) but in a WAY more selective way. Since I really care for audio quality I found hooking up my iPad to my active speakers in the living room or other places sonically lacking. So I much prefer listening on my Studer CD player with its superior DA.

Like it or not, things have changed drastically and bemoaning the 'good old times' is a complete waste of time and energy.

With bandwith going up and the immense catalogue of legal streaming services like Spotify, the situation for the consumer is actually better than ever. I miss the artwork and liner notes but that's only a matter of time till that will be fully integrated as well I guess.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1599
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
Like it or not, things have changed drastically and bemoaning the 'good old times' is a complete waste of time and energy.
It's not a waste of time and energy to push for better rates from Spotify.
If enough artists pushed, Spotify might be shamed into raising their rates of remuneration.
These are big companies. Spotify is CEO'ed by an ex-Google employee in Australia, and I'm sure she's remunerated handsomely.
It's never good to sit back and let companies kick you in the guts.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1600
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
What descriptor would you use instead?
We were talking about whether musicians worked hard when you entered the discussion.
Someone posted a video of Buddy Rich working hard, so I made a sarcastic comment that drumming is easy.

Then you tried to make a seemingly serious point that drumming is easy.
I'm interested in discussing how average musicians work hard, hard enough to get paid properly when people consume their work.
I'm not interested in discussing how easy it is to bang something in a vague rhythm. Therefore I continued the sarcastic tone with you.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1601
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's not a waste of time and energy to push for better rates from Spotify.
If enough artists pushed, Spotify might be shamed into raising their rates of remuneration.
These are big companies. Spotify is CEO'ed by an ex-Google employee in Australia, and I'm sure she's remunerated handsomely.
It's never good to sit back and let companies kick you in the guts.
That's not what I meant. Of course 'we' should push for higher rates but you need to realize that difference between streaming and selling physical products.Of course they can't pay even 20 cents per play because otherwise everybody would have folks sitting at their computers adding up clicks.

I hardly ever bought even single songs from iTunes because IMO it's too expensive fro what you get. I rather buy a CD that is in most cases cheaper and of course so much more flexible and informative even given the fact that CDs are very poor in that regard compared to vinyl albums.

'Legal Downloads' are the next step down, no wonder folks aren't willing to spend money on it! I don't know why this is so hard to understand for most people. A product needs packaging and a 'frame' - VALUE to most of us and if you whine about the 'purity' of music now well then realize that pop/rock music was never 'pure' to begin with and why should you NOT expect the sort of 'packaging' that is common for most any product you buy whether it's a candy bar or an art book.

Streaming is just a fundamentally different way of distributing music and that's where we really are clueless. Or do YOU have the solution? What is clear to me is that the real money for an artist has to come from elsewhere and the only way I see at the moment is a kind of 'super album' that would combine a physical playback medium like a CD with access to streaming and the whole artwork, visual content.

What I mean is something that goes way beyond the CD format, whatever that would be......

And even though I have zero reason or interest in defending Spotify, you don't have to be there. There are still many artists that don't license their music there but I have a feeling that most will do eventually. And if you DO pay for it (like I did with the Premium Account') its really the first modest step to improve the situation because the money to distribute has to come from SOMEWHERE.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1602
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Then you tried to make a seemingly serious point that drumming is easy.
I'm interested in discussing how average musicians work hard, hard enough to get paid properly when people consume their work.
I'm not interested in discussing how easy it is to bang something in a vague rhythm. Therefore I continued the sarcastic tone with you.
Though not aimed at me, your answer above is directly related to what I tried to say in my last post:

You seem to imply that 'working hard' at say drums makes one deserve getting paid. While we could have a very long discussion now about what makes great drumming in popular music that's not my point.

Fact is that you judge 'value' and may think 'This guy is technically great and obviously did practice a lot so he deserves getting paid'. But the exactly same thing happens in the mind of the people downloading songs: 'It's just a file so how can it have value?'.

Spotify is a way of making you feel like you get 'value' by sheer volume, either by paying a monthly fee or enduring lesser resolution and annoying ads with a free account. It's clearly a step above illegeal downloading but it can't solve the problem per se of artists not gettin paid because it is really not possible to make serious money off it even if you're on top of the charts.

You need to realize the difference to traditional radio broadcasts or mechnical licenses where more money is being paid because the process is selective: A radio station is in control of what they play (or the corporation behind it is...) so the 'roster' is very limited vs. the millions of songs on Spotify.

So trying to raise the fees, money being paid is laudable but doesn't solve the situation in the least. IMO we need NEW ways of selling music and I only see that in the sense of putting across a 'package' of sorts and it certainly involves performing in most cases.

Basically what Billy Corgan said and what I agree with despite NOT being a fan of the man's music.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1603
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
We were talking about whether musicians worked hard when you entered the discussion.
Someone posted a video of Buddy Rich working hard, so I made a sarcastic comment that drumming is easy.

Then you tried to make a seemingly serious point that drumming is easy.
I'm interested in discussing how average musicians work hard, hard enough to get paid properly when people consume their work.
I'm not interested in discussing how easy it is to bang something in a vague rhythm. Therefore I continued the sarcastic tone with you.
See, here's the thing...no matter how you interpret the conversation (serious, light, whatever) it's kind of impossible to reasonably make the case that my statements did anything but agree with what you were saying. Citing Buddy Rich only deepens the agreement—how many people can do what he did? Unless you are saying that your statement that both of the things I asserted were untrue was sarcasm...if that is what you are saying, then I misinterpreted and I accept the fault.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's not a waste of time and energy to push for better rates from Spotify.
If enough artists pushed, Spotify might be shamed into raising their rates of remuneration.
These are big companies. Spotify is CEO'ed by an ex-Google employee in Australia, and I'm sure she's remunerated handsomely.
It's never good to sit back and let companies kick you in the guts.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1605
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toneguru's Avatar
How bout a similar platform to Spotify, but partially owned by artists. Kind of like United Artists did back in 1919.

I know it is easier said than done but if the heavyweight artists got together the cache and PR would be wind in the sails.

Somethings got to give if we are to revive record sales and artists compensation.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1606
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Some do.

Others don't go to school at all and spend 15 or 20 years mastering their instrument.
And others spend more time and treasure learning audio engineering than a medical doctor does only to get a job that pays no more than the manager at Jack In The Box.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1607
Quote:
Originally Posted by toneguru View Post
How bout a similar platform to Spotify, but partially owned by artists. Kind of like United Artists did back in 1919.

I know it is easier said than done but if the heavyweight artists got together the cache and PR would be wind in the sails.

Somethings got to give if we are to revive record sales and artists compensation.
there are people working on this as we speak...
Old 6th June 2012
  #1608
Quote:
Originally Posted by toneguru View Post
How bout a similar platform to Spotify, but partially owned by artists. Kind of like United Artists did back in 1919.
I couldn't agree more.
I think many of the major media companies are selling creative workers down the river.
Unfortunately, many leading artists are on long term contracts, and it's always uncomfortable being the first to do anything. So it's going to be a slow evolution I think. But yes, I think you are right, it would be great to see an independent distribution network with the welfare of artists centre stage.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
Room and board is free?
You have to pay room and board no matter what you're doing. It's not an expense specific to college. You think musicians get room and board for free?

College students often get room and board subsidized with inexpensive dorms and cafeterias. Musicians don't. Unless they're at college, of course.

If you freakin' live at home with your parents your room and board still cost money - it's just not you who's paying for it.

If you don't want to pay room and board go live in a cave in the woods and hunt your food with a bow and arrow!
Old 7th June 2012
  #1610
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
Then be a doctor. I never claimed it was bad to be a doctor. Doctors at least the USA end up being quite wealthy even with all the debt. But it's not a slum dunk either. Medical schools are selective, and you have to work your ass off to get into one. It's not a given even if you manage to successfully survive pre-med (and that's an accomplishment in its own right). Nothing in life is easy bro. Unless you are born into money, you gotta work f**king hard for it. In any industry.
Yeah, but doctors don't have organized parasites stealing their earnings.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
He said you don't go to school for 7 years and go to debt $200k to be a musician. He is right. You don't have to even finish high school to be a super pro musician, as Ke$ha proved.
Ke$ha is a fluke. You can't judge most musician's careers by Ke$ha.

She made it because of her mother's insider contacts in the industry and because she's a pretty face that's easy to merchandize. And also because she's a writer who is able to write hits for other top pop artists like Miley Cyrus. (Who, of course, is another one who made it on the strength of family connections.)

It could easily be argued that because of her mother's show business involvement she spent her ENTIRE LIFE preparing for her career - not a mere seven years.

And all of her stuff has been done in professional studios with a high ticket professional team. She's not one of you bedroom recordists playing with Garageband.

A very poor example to choose to support your case for amateur music.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1612
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
Yes. It is. But doing it very well isn't. I don't know many people who would argue with that. I find it to be self-evident, in fact.
Really?

Are you a drummer?

I'm not.

I've tried, I took drum lessons, I practiced, but guess what? Drumming is HARD! Even though I can bang out a mean beat of the top of the bar and even swing pretty damn well doing it, put me behind a kit and I SUCK. And I don't even do that very well.

For that matter, I can't even play the single snare drum worth crap. Drumming is HARD!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
Yes. It is. But doing it very well isn't. I don't know many people who would argue with that. I find it to be self-evident, in fact.

Kids play drums at every junior high school in the country. How many of them will be good enough to play professionally? I'd say relatively few. You disagreed with that statement, though.
First, as a percentage of the population, the number of kids playing drums in junior high school is really very small, as any kid who has tried to start a band in junior high or high school can tell you. The limiting factor on starting your first band is being able to get a drummer. Hell, on any level getting and keeping a drummer is a problem.

Second, of those who have the natural ability to play drums, only those who put in the work will get anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
If we're going to parse words to that degree let's not edit my post. I said "relatively few." Again I return to the number of kids in middle school, junior high, and high school who pick up sticks and hit drums. How many of them will ever be good enough to do it for a living? I'd say relatively few is a good description. What descriptor would you use instead?
I'd say it's a spurious argument.

The real question is how many will put in the work over time that it takes to make a career of it?

Out of the relatively few who have any talent in the first place?
Old 7th June 2012
  #1613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
And others spend more time and treasure learning audio engineering than a medical doctor does only to get a job that pays no more than the manager at Jack In The Box.
Exactly. And has worse hours.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1614
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freetard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
You have to pay room and board no matter what you're doing. It's not an expense specific to college. You think musicians get room and board for free?

College students often get room and board subsidized with inexpensive dorms and cafeterias. Musicians don't. Unless they're at college, of course.

If you freakin' live at home with your parents your room and board still cost money - it's just not you who's paying for it.

If you don't want to pay room and board go live in a cave in the woods and hunt your food with a bow and arrow!
You clearly don't have much knowledge about college if you think that. College is not just a money commitment, it's a time commitment as well. While most people have these things called full time jobs to pay for their "room and board". College students generally have part time or summer jobs that pay crap (if they are taking easy classes, pre-med and hard sciences doesn't belong in that category).

Effectively, it's like living unemployed for four years, while having to pay absurd amounts of money for books and tuition. Student debt is a huge problem.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
You clearly don't have much knowledge about college if you think that. College is not just a money commitment, it's a time commitment as well. While most people have these things called full time jobs to pay for their "room and board". College students generally have part time or summer jobs that pay crap (if they are taking easy classes, pre-med and hard sciences doesn't belong in that category).

Effectively, it's like living unemployed for four years, while having to pay absurd amounts of money for books and tuition. Student debt is a huge problem.
that sounds horrible? why aren't the books and tuition free? information wants to be free! FREE I TELL YOU!

Start a mob fueled internet black out to get the government to recognize the error of making people PAY for an education and books!

well, it's good to know that after all that time, money and investment at least YOU will be working for Free, won't you freetard? I mean you wouldn't want to appear to be a hypocrite, right?
Old 7th June 2012
  #1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetard View Post
You clearly don't have much knowledge about college if you think that..
Hey, Junior - my daddy was a college professor (head of his department in fact) - I grew up in a college environment.

I know more about college that you'll ever know.

Quote:
College is not just a money commitment, it's a time commitment as well.
Learning to play music is a far greater time committment that most college bachelor's degree courses will ever be.

But you wouldn't know anything about that because you think playing with loops (that were created by a real musician WHO ISN'T YOU) is actually making music.

That's like a 4 year old playing with mudpies claiming to be a chef.
Old 8th June 2012
  #1617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

Drumming is HARD!
No, it isn't. Drumming WELL is hard. Drumming well enough to make a living at it is so hard that only a relatively few people can do it.

Honestly when I posted that it was almost tongue in cheek because I thought it was a completely self-evident statement. I'm wondering if you two aren't reading way more into it than you should or interpreting it as though I meant something way more profound or nuanced than I ever meant.

And I think you're flat wrong about the prevalence of people who drum.

According to an older US Census report, approximately 30% of all adults 15+ are amateur musicians. The CIA World Fact Book estimates the July 2006 population size of this demographic is 237,637,496. That’s a projected 71.3 million adults. In this group, according to various industry reports, there are 1 million drummers.

That's a cut & paste from a Google search, but even if it's half right I think we can conclude that there are a whole lot more people drumming that there are people good enough to make a living at it.

And to answer your question, no I'm not a drummer. I did get a kit a couple of years ago and I can play it well enough to record the simple drum parts I need with it. It took me practicing 30 minutes a day for a couple of months. Easy...I got to that point with drums a whole lot faster than I got to where I could record guitar starting from zero.

Now, am I a GOOD drummer? Anywhere good enough to make a living at it? Hell no! That would be hard and require a lot of practice.
Old 8th June 2012
  #1618
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
No, it isn't. Drumming WELL is hard. Drumming well enough to make a living at it is so hard that only a relatively few people can do it.

Honestly when I posted that it was almost tongue in cheek because I thought it was a completely self-evident statement. I'm wondering if you two aren't reading way more into it than you should or interpreting it as though I meant something way more profound or nuanced than I ever meant.

And I think you're flat wrong about the prevalence of people who drum.

According to an older US Census report, approximately 30% of all adults 15+ are amateur musicians. The CIA World Fact Book estimates the July 2006 population size of this demographic is 237,637,496. That’s a projected 71.3 million adults. In this group, according to various industry reports, there are 1 million drummers.

That's a cut & paste from a Google search, but even if it's half right I think we can conclude that there are a whole lot more people drumming that there are people good enough to make a living at it.

And to answer your question, no I'm not a drummer. I did get a kit a couple of years ago and I can play it well enough to record the simple drum parts I need with it. It took me practicing 30 minutes a day for a couple of months. Easy...I got to that point with drums a whole lot faster than I got to where I could record guitar starting from zero.

Now, am I a GOOD drummer? Anywhere good enough to make a living at it? Hell no! That would be hard and require a lot of practice.
Of the people who are active musicians (who play real instruments) probably 70% are guitar players (including bassists for the sake of this estimate), 10% are keyboard players, 5% are drummers, and 10% are everything else. Speaking of their primary instrument. That's my educated guess, anyway.

Part of the reason for the shortage of drummers may be that it's a rare breed of parent who will allow their kid to have a set of drums in the house....
Old 9th June 2012
  #1619
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Beat Poet's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Part of the reason for the shortage of drummers may be that it's a rare breed of parent who will allow their kid to have a set of drums in the house....
...and even if you get to that stage and want to progress, you've got to shunt alot of gear around if you ever want to get out and gig.
Old 9th June 2012
  #1620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Poet View Post
...and even if you get to that stage and want to progress, you've got to shunt alot of gear around if you ever want to get out and gig.
Heh! That's why I have my own drum kit. It's a hell of a lot easier to get drummers to come over and play if they don't have to hump their gear.
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