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Billy Corgan - No Money In Music Now
Old 13th March 2012
  #91
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Shannon Adkins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by treewhispers View Post
his music jas NEVER portrayed just a a negative/apathetic worldview... why are here so many corgan-bashers? just because he has reached MORE than you will ever reach?
just because he is more human than you will ever be?
We're both entitled to our opinions, for sure. And having an opinion that the overall message of his music is negative/apathetic/pessimistic doesn't in any way necessitate the least bit of jealousy.
You've just made some bold statements toward the character of others without knowing them at all. That's wisdom
Old 13th March 2012
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Make a list of all of the way a recording artist makes money other than record sales, and post it. Also post your opinion of whether that revenue is up or down. Then from there tell me if you still need proof and I'll work on it.

The point is to look at the record business separate from the music business as a whole.
No Mike, and we've been through this. There is nothing new about "all the other ways artists make money"... touring (for the high end), merch, syncs, endorsements... NONE of that is new, none of it... artists have always had those additional revenue streams, and the more successful they are in terms of record sales, the more additional revenue streams there are, reduce and/or remove record sales and you are also removing the number of people from that other ancillary income.

There are LESS opportunities today for Professional Artists, and of those who are professional there is LESS money to be made. That's just a fact. You don't lose 60% of a business and everyone ends up with more...
Old 13th March 2012
  #93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camera View Post
I guess you're living in a different (older) world. Using 1999 as a reference does not support your claim.

My world of independent artists has only gotten better. But those numbers and graphs are hard to come by. Guess we'll know where to deliver flowers to.
the numbers are not hard to find:
TuneCore Stats...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran kelly View Post
Glad this is picking up steam... Below is a post I made on tuncore back in January.

For The Record I like the service Tunecore provides . This issue is more about realities of making money in music.


How people use Nielsen to hurt musicians. (TuneCorner)


We should do a little math to get to the main "spirit" of Silvermans argument. I am going to take numbers straight from Jeff's post

Top 14 selling tunecore artists sold
6,375,000 Tracks.

Tunecore artists overall sold ( this number would include titles from 2007 so pushing the over all per title sales down . Thus the number would be LOWER than even what I am posting )
42,000,000 Tracks . Subtract the 6,375,000 tracks that the top 14 artists that leaves you with

35,625,000 tracks sold for the other 90,000+ new and catalog titles.

Titles published in 2008
90,000

Taking out those 14 Titles
The AVERAGE tracks sold in 2008 of every other title on tunecore was
395 tracks sold( 39.5 total albums sold )


for a average title gross of
$277 dollars per year. for all but the top 14 Artists


Keep in mind that was only separating the top 14 selling artists from tunecore from the general pool .. what about separating the top 1000 titles .. I bet at that point the average per title track sales of the bottom 89,000 titles ( thats the other 98% for those keeping track) would be below well below 50 tracks sold per year average.

Silverman's Point is still valid even if the numbers are a little off. If anything it would further support the need for a team. As Almost all ( if not all ) of the top selling artists report to Nielsen . Where as the lowest selling releases would skew that ratio even lower than the $277 per title gross above
$277 Dollars A Year... yeah... that sounds better...
Old 13th March 2012
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The mistake you make is to see an attitude of 'superiority' in the expression of real life experience.
My point was after 30 years of ups and downs I'm well aware how hard it is to survive in the music industry. Ironic then that Robert Shaw thought I 'didn't get it'. He wouldn't know anyway, because he doesn't know me or very much at all about me.
That isn't superiority, that's real experiences vs imagined experiences.
The irony kills me....

You know everyone here? You act as if you know everything about everyone...

I've never seen anyone (you, your pal, and a couple of others here) so obsessed with "experience" and shoving it down everyone's necks all while assuming everyone else barely has the right to speak (only if they disagree with you)...

I seriously don't know why you hang out here if it's too "amateur" for you and no one is qualified to "debate" with you...

There are other well known experienced people elsewhere on this forum and I never see them wave their experience around nor question or put anyone down...
Old 13th March 2012
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
You're both right and the reason is because you are talking about two different things. The "record business" is a piece of the "music business".

There is more money in the "music business" than ever before.
not true. all the previous revenue streams already existed, nothing is being added, but recorded music revenue (and the associated publishing) has been taken away. that's a loss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
The "record business" is in a coma with an unknown prognosis.
the prognosis is the need for better enforcement of copyright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
The thing is, there have been professional musicians for thousands of years without selling recordings of their music. It may end up that the record business is an 80-100 year aberration.
so than you are saying what I am saying, this is a step BACKWARDS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Maybe artist development, that went from the majors to the indies, will go from the indies to the Summer tours, like Warped and Bamboozle etc, and new ones that don't yet exist.
and, maybe not...
Old 13th March 2012
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I like how you use my post to post the same tired ****...

If you are so F*cking Superior what the f*ck are you doing here day and night?????????

And for f*cks sake, lighten up dude...this is obviously mostly a light-hearted thread...I didn't even listen to the video which is hardly important in the scheme of things and it's just another excuse to post that f*cking graph and say the same bull****...if it weren't for robertshaw, this thread would be a complete waste of time, as are most of these threads, because at least he's funny...

get over yourself!

back at ya!
Old 13th March 2012
  #97
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzschreiner View Post
And until you ask "why" it's like that, you get to stay on the hampsters wheel.

Quick answer: It's because money has been manipulated into something you can't do without, from it's origin as a simpler means of exchange. On purpose, I might add.
let me know when we abolish currency... just let me know when that is ok?
Old 13th March 2012
  #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post

Sorry, for the random, disconnected recollections.
It all sounds very similar to what he says in the video.
Overall, without having seen the proper presentation as you did (thanks for the report), his message seems very confused and doesn't really add anything to the debate. I wish it did.
Old 13th March 2012
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It all sounds very similar to what he says in the video.
Oh sorry, I didn't watch it. I noticed that it was a different event and assumed he would be saying different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
his message seems very confused and doesn't really add anything to the debate. I wish it did.
It was confused, but in person it was pretty interesting. I felt like I understood where he was coming from and what he was getting at even when he was saying things that were unclear or blatantly contradictory.

I definitely agree with him that artists need to "create their own world" in a way that makes music more immersive (I mean, they don't need to but that's probably the best way to stay competitive with other forms of entertainment). He had an interesting point that a new innovation will probably come from the underground because it needs to be able to replicated easily by other artists. He said he could spend a million dollars and create some new thing but that's not going to be a model that other musicians can follow. But some kid in a basement will figure out how to connect together various things that are out there and will create a new paradigm that others can follow. It was vague but I definitely know what he was getting at because I've been thinking along those same lines.
Old 13th March 2012
  #100
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
The irony kills me....


.....I seriously don't know why you hang out here if it's too "amateur" for you and no one is qualified to "debate" with you...
Have at it man. Seriously. I'm totally prepared to debate with you. But instead you post personal criticism after personal criticism. You're wasting a lot of time and effort. Do you think I'm going to crumple up and go away because you don't like me?
Debate me on the substance. Go on!
Post something that is less personal attack and more substantive commentary on what Corgan had to say (as that is this topic). I dare you..... but then you already admitted you couldn't be bothered to watch the video linked.
Old 14th March 2012
  #101
Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
Oh sorry, I didn't watch it. I noticed that it was a different event and assumed he would be saying different things.
Well it's kinda good that he says the same things. he must believe them.


Quote:
He had an interesting point that a new innovation will probably come from the underground because it needs to be able to replicated easily by other artists.
It's so obvious though, and nothing new. Innovation always comes from the underground. That's why i find his input so disappointing. It's mostly made up of contradiction and statement of the obvious.
Old 14th March 2012
  #102
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
and, maybe not...
Agreed. Live attendance is up and down, not trending upwards inverse to record sales.
Most of the successful festivals are social events. Places to be, rather than places of music. Music is but one attraction, along with the need for a crowd (social) experience.
Nothing really wrong in that, but it isn't a new way to pay for music that replaces purchasing recordings. Social experiences change rapidly. Once the attraction of festival gatherings becomes less socially relevant, where does music financing go?
Old 14th March 2012
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Have at it man. Seriously. I'm totally prepared to debate with you. But instead you post personal criticism after personal criticism. You're wasting a lot of time and effort. Do you think I'm going to crumple up and go away because you don't like me?
Debate me on the substance. Go on!
Post something that is less personal attack and more substantive commentary on what Corgan had to say (as that is this topic). I dare you..... but then you already admitted you couldn't be bothered to watch the video linked.
You dare me to debate you on The Billy Corgan video?!?!

That may well be the stupidest thing anyone has ever said!

I know you are waiting for me to go away so you and your pal can have your ball back and continue to be the big shots and put everyone else down without having to deal with it...

I'll give up soon enough, seems clear you guys would rather come off the way you do and continue your game than have any sort of humility or understanding...

seems strange to me that people like you are into the "arts"...of course, this is music BUSINESS, as you guys like to point out, and that unfortunately makes a lot more sense...wrestling (professional, of course) would make more sense as well...

c'est la vie...
Old 14th March 2012
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's so obvious though, and nothing new. Innovation always comes from the underground. That's why i find his input so disappointing. It's mostly made up of contradiction and statement of the obvious.
Well it's obvious to me but there are plenty of people here who seem to believe that innovation comes only through major label financing and that nothing can be accomplished in the underground. The contradictions were interesting to me because the situation is full of contradictions. I think anyone who has a simplistic take on these things is foolish.
Old 14th March 2012
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
seems strange to me that people like you are into the "arts"...of course, this is music BUSINESS, as you guys like to point out, and that unfortunately makes a lot more sense...wrestling (professional, of course) would make more sense as well...

c'est la vie...
why do people like you always have to make it "either/or" when the conversation is really about "in addition to"... you are attempting to create a false dichotomy that does not actually exist.

the music business is about BOTH music and business.

if you want to make music without business you are free to do that, but your dislike of the business, in the music BUSINESS forum, seems like a bit of waste of time, don't you think?

I always find it strange that people like you either A) don't want musicians to actually make any money, B) complain when they do, and C) complain that in order for musicians to make money that they actually have to be "in business"?

what do you think, yer gonna rock out and money is going to magically appear? seriously, no wonder your frustrated you can't even reconcile your own arguments within yourself. just really sounds like jealousy to me. there's a saying, sour grapes makes for bitter wine.
Old 14th March 2012
  #106
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
You dare me to debate you on The Billy Corgan video?!?!
I dare you to post anything relevant to the topic!

Your posts are 99.5% personal analysis. Sadly uninformed.
And 0.5% substantive on the issues.
Old 14th March 2012
  #107
Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
Well it's obvious to me but there are plenty of people here who seem to believe that innovation comes only through major label financing and that nothing can be accomplished in the underground.
Are you talking about the industry professionals here?
Innovation always seeds in the underground. Innovation takes hold and prospers through mainstream take-up and financing.
Of course in the process the initial innovation usually becomes compromised, or at least evolves.
Old 14th March 2012
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
Well it's obvious to me but there are plenty of people here who seem to believe that innovation comes only through major label financing and that nothing can be accomplished in the underground. The contradictions were interesting to me because the situation is full of contradictions. I think anyone who has a simplistic take on these things is foolish.
let me say this again, I am working with like minded people who are starting to come together to form an organizational umbrella for artists advocacy.

the #1 goal is to protect the rights of artists, though cooperative commerce, policy initiatives and education. but artists have to want to participate.

a chief goal is battling piracy and working towards the ethical and fair trade of artists works across all digital distribution systems and is inclusive of not just musicians, but also photographers, writers, filmmakers, songwriters, etc.

all creatives are stakeholders in the future of professional creative careers and the cornerstone of this is to ensure that creative works are protected under copyright. from this fundamental foundation all other aspects can be worked out, but when musicians and artists abandon copyright as the basic foundation for the protection and compensation of their work, everything falls apart and big tech, big labels, big corporations win.

the new boss is worse than the old boss, and everyone who aspires to creative professional careers (or already has one) needs to get the facts straight.

major label 360 Deals did not start until after rampant piracy eroded the ability for labels to recoup their investments from record sales, this dis-empowers artists.
Old 14th March 2012
  #109
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JSt0rm's Avatar
I think it will go back to how it has been for hundreds of years. People from a wealthy family can pursue a career in music because the economic pressures arent there. Poor people will make simple music for other poor people but they will need to work day jobs to support themselves and their families.

I know the above sounds harsh and against everything the modern world has attempted to work towards but a middle class hasnt really existed for more then 65 years in the entirety of all of mankind and the trend is the removal of the middle class.

The pursuit of artistic talents has always been the place of the wealthy. The poor go to trade school because thats all they can afford.
Old 14th March 2012
  #110
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzschreiner View Post
And until you ask "why" it's like that, you get to stay on the hampsters wheel.

Quick answer: It's because money has been manipulated into something you can't do without, from it's origin as a simpler means of exchange. On purpose, I might add.
One word:

Lala Land.

Oops. I meant two words. Or is it three?

La La Land?

Sorry. No I reckon it's two.

Lala Land.
Old 14th March 2012
  #111
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I think it will go back to how it has been for hundreds of years. People from a wealthy family can pursue a career in music because the economic pressures arent there. Poor people will make simple music for other poor people but they will need to work day jobs to support themselves and their families.

I know the above sounds harsh and against everything the modern world has attempted to work towards but a middle class hasnt really existed for more then 65 years in the entirety of all of mankind and the trend is the removal of the middle class.

The pursuit of artistic talents has always been the place of the wealthy. The poor go to trade school because thats all they can afford.
why accept a step backwards? when google and pirates are profiting?
Old 14th March 2012
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I dare you to post anything relevant to the topic!

Your posts are 99.5% personal analysis. Sadly uninformed.
And 0.5% substantive on the issues.
Why don't you say the same about Rack Gear's last post, which is a typical one of his...he is making all of these assumptions about "people like me" that have nothing to do with anything I even said!

Why is it, when you guys go way off in ridiculous and obnoxious ways, that is "debating"...

The reason my posts with you guys are now mostly about "personal analysis" is because I'm trying in vain to give you a taste of your own medicine...

But you just can't seem to grasp that...

(oops, I've been forgetting my facepalms, always so mature.)
Old 14th March 2012
  #113
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Beat Poet's Avatar
 

Haven't read through the topic, but that was another informative interview with Billy. It doesn't matter what you think about him and his music, the business needs people like him to provide an alternative voice.
Old 14th March 2012
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
there's a saying, sour grapes makes for bitter wine.
Good thing it's not under copyright....where would you be without the creativity of others?

Thanks for another personal analysis...

Should I do one of you now?

Old 14th March 2012
  #115
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
The reason my posts with you guys are now mostly about "personal analysis" is because I'm trying in vain to give you a taste of your own medicine...
A couple of reality checks.
1) I'm not 'you guys'. I'm me, an individual.
2) Your approach isn't working.
Old 14th March 2012
  #116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Poet View Post
the business needs people like him to provide an alternative voice.
Well I agree.
I'm not sure on the 'alternative' aspect. But this debate surely needs more stakeholders to speak up and make their opinions known.
Old 14th March 2012
  #117
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I think it will go back to how it has been for hundreds of years.
Let's go back to traveling on horse back.
Outbreaks of plague and pestilence.
Families in debtors prison. Child labour.

Oh wait..... society evolves.
Old 14th March 2012
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post

2) Your approach isn't working.
Neither is yours...
Old 14th March 2012
  #119
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Neither is yours...
My approach is to post opinion/fact as I see see it, based on my experiences.
I can't do any more than that.
In a thread about Billy Corgan's views on the future of the business, apart from (mistakenly) reacting to your personal attacks, I'm mostly commenting on Billy Corgan's views on the future of the business. Again, I can't do much more than that.
And you?
Old 14th March 2012
  #120
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Jay-'s Avatar
Jesus, do people really wonder why no one buys auto tuned 16 year old singers that sing in 9 octaves at once?

Its all slim pickings!
Are there even CD stores any more?

Just looking at the stench of the top 100, I cant identify a single act but "Tattoo - A Different Kind of Truth - Van Halen (#11)"

Where the money go?
Where the talent go?
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