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did I violate copyright?!? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 17th September 2011
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frawnchy View Post
Finally, my record label has a name!

Now I just need some records to release...

Hey...uh, you guys... you guys wanna donate six-second snippets of your tracks to my label?

Fair use though, amirite?
darn you grabbed it first
okay
my label will be hollygoolydonkydoop
or is that too similar so would be called derivative ?

want to cross license our 6 second snippets ?
Old 18th September 2011
  #32
Gear Addict
 
frawnchy's Avatar
 

did I violate copyright?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy

darn you grabbed it first
okay
my label will be hollygoolydonkydoop
or is that too similar so would be called derivative ?

want to cross license our 6 second snippets ?
I'm okay with the referential/reverential naming, but demand to have my label's name credited on all releases, as well as a link to our online store through yours.
As for the snippets... I'm the spotter, so... 70-30 split in my favour, on publishing? 50-50 on performance (and no, I won't budge).
We can talk sync rights over a bottle of Dom in the back of my limo.
It's a bit of a trek to the back of it, but you'll see me in the jacuzzi, surrounded by humidors and prostitutes.
Old 18th September 2011
  #33
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

FWIW, FYI for your future knowledge:
There's actually TWO copyrights in any given recorded work (something Joe alluded to)
The copyright of the composition (the 'song')
The copyright of the recording (the 'master')

Here's everything and anything you'd want to know about US copyright (and much of the rest of the world [the countries that have copyright law, that is] is not far off, so you may as well read it, then read where you're country differs... but if you intend on releasing anything to the US market, you'd better know the rules! Even if you're "giving it away")
U.S. Copyright Office
Old 18th September 2011
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xj32 View Post
Also be aware that over the years many bands from the Beatles to Led Zeppelin have been sued AND LOST over this very thing, and I am not talk sampling, I am talking "sounds like" riffs and such.

XJ
those Led Zeppelin lyrics "sound like" Willie Dixon lyrics.
Old 18th September 2011
  #35
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P.S.

Led Zep's "D&C" doesn't "sound like" this song, it *is* this song.
Old 18th September 2011
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
FWIW, FYI for your future knowledge:
There's actually TWO copyrights in any given recorded work (something Joe alluded to)
The copyright of the composition (the 'song')
The copyright of the recording (the 'master')

Here's everything and anything you'd want to know about US copyright (and much of the rest of the world [the countries that have copyright law, that is] is not far off, so you may as well read it, then read where you're country differs... but if you intend on releasing anything to the US market, you'd better know the rules! Even if you're "giving it away")
U.S. Copyright Office
there is also a performance copyright aka circle-P symbol
is that what you mean by a master ?
Old 18th September 2011
  #37
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DaveUK's Avatar
You nicked it and by your own admission it springboarded the whole track ! Just admit it and give credit/ get permission/ spread some love :+)
Old 18th September 2011
  #38
Gear Addict
 

Can you prodive a link to the original acapella? I wonder how they found out, is it famous?
Old 18th September 2011
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dappolito View Post
Can you prodive a link to the original acapella? I wonder how they found out, is it famous?
watch it be "MmmBop"
Old 18th September 2011
  #40
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpyLoo View Post
watch it be "MmmBop"
Damn heh, I was so stupid and searched for and watch it on youtube... What a disruption... I mean I was chilling to Deepchord - Aequinoxium before.
Old 18th September 2011
  #41
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
there is also a performance copyright aka circle-P symbol
is that what you mean by a master ?
The 'master' is the actual recording. (the SR copyright, or Sound Recording)
The song itself is registered under 'PA'. (performance arts) the 'PA' is the underlying composition of the song.
There can only be one 'PA' of any song.. but there can be Mutiple 'SR' of a song

Senario:
You pay for/record a cover album of the Beatles.
You'd own the CD (SR) (assuming you paid the mechanical royalties), but not the song (PA).
Old 18th September 2011
  #42
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
The 'master' is the actual recording. (the SR copyright, or Sound Recording)
The song itself is registered under 'PA'. (performance arts) the 'PA' is the underlying composition of the song.
There can only be one 'PA' of any song.. but there can be Mutiple 'SR' of a song

Senario:
You pay for/record a cover album of the Beatles.
You'd own the CD (SR) (assuming you paid the mechanical royalties), but not the song (PA).
Does it mean that when registering a song with LOC you have to register separately for SR and PA paying 35 USD twice =70 USD for a single song to be properly copyrighted ?
Old 18th September 2011
  #43
Gear Head
 
Multiplier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dappolito View Post
Can you prodive a link to the original acapella? I wonder how they found out, is it famous?
I forget where I downloaded it from, I think I googled "song name artist acapella".

SoundCloud runs tracks through the same thing youtube uses to flag up tracks automatically.

and since I now know that the original was released by Sony, there's no surprise that it flagged it. if I ever put up music using uncleared samples again, I'll make sure they're not from one of the big record labels.


sorry Internet, I shouldn't have done it. (despite my own opinions on the law, I guess I can't just go around doing whatever I want)
Old 18th September 2011
  #44
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frawnchy's Avatar
 

did I violate copyright?!?

Listen, I'm on your side in a way, as long as you weren't selling the track, but... saying this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiplier
sorry Internet, I shouldn't have done it. (despite my own opinions on the law, I guess I can't just go around doing whatever I want)
Just after saying this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiplier
if I ever put up music using uncleared samples again, I'll make sure they're not from one of the big record labels.
Sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight contradiction there?

Sorry, I shouldn't have done it.
But if I do it again...
Which I shouldn't, because I can't just go around doing what I want...
But I will anyway, and I'll just make sure it's not signed to an entity that has enough money to crush me to a fine grain.
So the initial persecution I felt from a major I'll now pass onto whomever I think I can steal from without retribution...

Sounds like you're a bully.

Are you a bully?
Old 18th September 2011
  #45
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is *this* your card?
Old 18th September 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiplier View Post
I just had a track taken down from SoundCloud because of a copyright dispute.

does taking 6 seconds of an acapella I found on the web (I think someone's home-made acapella) mean I violated copyright?


thanks
Yes. You violated copyright.



Posted from a scoring stage or recording studio via the Gearslutz iPhone app
Old 18th September 2011
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiplier View Post
I forget where I downloaded it from, I think I googled "song name artist acapella".

SoundCloud runs tracks through the same thing youtube uses to flag up tracks automatically.

and since I now know that the original was released by Sony, there's no surprise that it flagged it. if I ever put up music using uncleared samples again, I'll make sure they're not from one of the big record labels.


sorry Internet, I shouldn't have done it. (despite my own opinions on the law, I guess I can't just go around doing whatever I want)
That's right. There's you opinion and then there's the law. You should apologizing to the Artist you stole from however, and not Sony.

Sony is only protecting the work of the artist as is their job.

Posted from a scoring stage or recording studio via the Gearslutz iPhone app
Old 18th September 2011
  #48
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
I just had a track taken down from SoundCloud because of a copyright dispute.

does taking 6 seconds of an acapella I found on the web (I think someone's home-made acapella) mean I violated copyright?
this begs the question. Had you known ahead of time it was a released track on a giant label like Sony, would you have lifted it without clearance?

Or is it only the perceived 'home-made' aspect that makes it "fair game"? The idea that only Big Shots are deserving of copyright protection puts your actions more into the 'likelihood of getting caught' frame than any opinion on the ethics.

Quote:
Although I'm ethically in the right, legally I might technically be in the wrong,
You opened the door, counselor, so let's talk Ethics for a minute. If exercised properly, ethical behavior should be stricter than what is "allowed" by the law. The Golden Rule is broader than any statutory requirement.

Speaking of the GR, I am frankly skeptical of your after-the-fact claim that you would be "OK" with somebody stealing your stuff. Apparently you are not even OK with somebody taking down the song you made illegally!

In any case, you are misinterpreting the "do unto others" part. You may also be "OK" with getting punched in the face, but people still have a right to DECLINE being punched in the face by you if they don't share your masochism.

Quote:
(despite my own opinions on the law, I guess I can't just go around doing whatever I want)
In the long run, you may find creating your own art from scratch more rewarding.

If you are not talented or skilled enough to create your own art from scratch, then you need to acknowledge your debt, both artistic and financial, to those who are.

Simple, really. This is the correct ethical standpoint. Clear your samples and credit them.

Hierarchies of art are very real. All artistic endeavors are NOT created "equal". Collage sits lower than full-on creation. While drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa may be a 'reimagining' - 'transforming someone's ideas into something new' - the simple fact of the matter is that without the originality and power of the Mona Lisa, nobody will EVER care about your mustache. It's just a black squiggle without her.



The song you lifted from existed before you ever came along. It doesn't need you at all. OTOH, take that sample away, and your song pretty much ceases to exist, doesn't it?

THAT is the core of the ethics at issue here. That's the hierarchy of Art. And you are at the bottom. Acknowledge that, and pay up - pay the money and pay the respect.
Old 18th September 2011
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frawnchy View Post
Listen, I'm on your side in a way, as long as you weren't selling the track, but... saying this:

Just after saying this:

Sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight contradiction there?

Sorry, I shouldn't have done it.
But if I do it again...
Which I shouldn't, because I can't just go around doing what I want...
But I will anyway, and I'll just make sure it's not signed to an entity that has enough money to crush me to a fine grain.
So the initial persecution I felt from a major I'll now pass onto whomever I think I can steal from without retribution...

Sounds like you're a bully.

Are you a bully?
arrogant
egotistical
immature
masochistic
narcisstic
may be more apt descriptors
Old 18th September 2011
  #50
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TankT34 View Post
Does it mean that when registering a song with LOC you have to register separately for SR and PA paying 35 USD twice =70 USD for a single song to be properly copyrighted ?
No, assuming the author of the music composition and the sound recording is the same, you can register both on a single application.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ56a.pdf
Old 19th September 2011
  #51
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My 2 cents: I'm using Logic Pro now after years on Cubase. I am pleasantly thrilled with the bazillion sounds and smaples that are included with the program. But I must admit, this whole new age thing about sampling music from everyone else and calling it your creation has always been a thorn in my side. I have always looked at a new artists work through its originality factor content. More of: how much apart than as opposed to how close to someone elses'. I do not ad or ever build from another's'.
Kind of like making your own spaghetti. It's your sauce. Scratch is very cool...
Old 19th September 2011
  #52
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiplier View Post
ok, well I guess I used the same chord progressions for some of the bits (completely different instruments and timing though still), but you can't copyright a chord progression or a melody. well actually you might be able to, but if you can, thats legal BS, thats like when the early tech companies tried to copyright stuff like "hyperlinking". it's stupid.
There goes the logic part of this thread.
Old 19th September 2011
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-cue View Post
There goes the logic part of this thread.
it went a while ago, along with my interest.
Old 19th September 2011
  #54
Gear Head
 
Multiplier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
this begs the question. Had you known ahead of time it was a released track on a giant label like Sony, would you have lifted it without clearance?

Or is it only the perceived 'home-made' aspect that makes it "fair game"? The idea that only Big Shots are deserving of copyright protection puts your actions more into the 'likelihood of getting caught' frame than any opinion on the ethics.



You opened the door, counselor, so let's talk Ethics for a minute. If exercised properly, ethical behavior should be stricter than what is "allowed" by the law. The Golden Rule is broader than any statutory requirement.

Speaking of the GR, I am frankly skeptical of your after-the-fact claim that you would be "OK" with somebody stealing your stuff. Apparently you are not even OK with somebody taking down the song you made illegally!

In any case, you are misinterpreting the "do unto others" part. You may also be "OK" with getting punched in the face, but people still have a right to DECLINE being punched in the face by you if they don't share your masochism.



In the long run, you may find creating your own art from scratch more rewarding.

If you are not talented or skilled enough to create your own art from scratch, then you need to acknowledge your debt, both artistic and financial, to those who are.

Simple, really. This is the correct ethical standpoint. Clear your samples and credit them.

Hierarchies of art are very real. All artistic endeavors are NOT created "equal". Collage sits lower than full-on creation. While drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa may be a 'reimagining' - 'transforming someone's ideas into something new' - the simple fact of the matter is that without the originality and power of the Mona Lisa, nobody will EVER care about your mustache. It's just a black squiggle without her.



The song you lifted from existed before you ever came along. It doesn't need you at all. OTOH, take that sample away, and your song pretty much ceases to exist, doesn't it?

THAT is the core of the ethics at issue here. That's the hierarchy of Art. And you are at the bottom. Acknowledge that, and pay up - pay the money and pay the respect.
I've had a few people do bootlegs of my complete originals without asking. I've had DJs use my complete originals in mixes and playing out live, again, without asking. That violated copyright, but I encourage it. I believe in free music and musical expression. The argument that "without copyright nothing would get made for fear of it getting stolen" is BS. I'd still be doing this even if I didn't upload it the internets and share it, and frankly, any artist worth anything would be too.

I was wrong to upload it, I have admitted that. We are all learning here. And although I do edits, remixes, bootlegs and reworks, I also do originals using no samples (other than a few drum one-shots from royalty-free sample packs). I just like making music and sharing it.
Old 20th September 2011
  #55
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiplier View Post
I've had a few people do bootlegs of my complete originals without asking. I've had DJs use my complete originals in mixes and playing out live, again, without asking. That violated copyright, but I encourage it. I believe in free music and musical expression.

All well and good, just remember you can only waive your own rights. Doing so does not put you into a special category where, because you have been "free" with your stuff, others must reciprocate.


Quote:
The argument that "without copyright nothing would get made for fear of it getting stolen" is BS. I'd still be doing this even if I didn't upload it the internets and share it, and frankly, any artist worth anything would be too.

If you think copyrights should not exist, you will have to take it up with your legislators.


The way I look at it, most of our best art comes from people who are doing it full-time. It's not that they would go On Strike. They simply could not afford to do it full time if they could not retain the rights to their work. Surely you can see how many people think copyright is a good thing.


Quote:
I just like making music and sharing it
that's fine, even admirable, as long as you understand that sharing what you own is your decision, and sharing what you do not own is crossing the line.
Old 20th September 2011
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multiplier View Post
I've had a few people do bootlegs of my complete originals without asking. I've had DJs use my complete originals in mixes and playing out live, again, without asking. That violated copyright, but I encourage it. I believe in free music and musical expression. The argument that "without copyright nothing would get made for fear of it getting stolen" is BS. I'd still be doing this even if I didn't upload it the internets and share it, and frankly, any artist worth anything would be too.

I was wrong to upload it, I have admitted that. We are all learning here. And although I do edits, remixes, bootlegs and reworks, I also do originals using no samples (other than a few drum one-shots from royalty-free sample packs). I just like making music and sharing it.
just cause otehr people steal does not mean its okay for you to do it too

some people mug little old ladies
or kill bank tellers

do you have a line you wont cross with your brand of logic?

so make your own music and share it
dont share other peoples music without permission
Old 20th September 2011
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
just cause otehr people steal does not mean its okay for you to do it too

some people mug little old ladies
or kill bank tellers

do you have a line you wont cross with your brand of logic?

so make your own music and share it
dont share other peoples music without permission
let's be ****ing real on the other side for a moment.
there are real horrors happening in this world. real crimes.
copyright infringement is bad and wrong and all that.
but don't compare it to violence, let alonemurder.
one person's murder is and will always be worse than 100 billion copyright infringements.
Old 20th September 2011
  #58
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Empty Planet's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
...There can only be one 'PA' of any song.. but there can be Mutiple 'SR' of a song....
Good info in this post, except for a slight correction to the above. I think there can be multiple PAs, in certain rare circumstances, such as if the composer registered draft versions or similar alternates.

But the point is a good one. Multiple copyrights were violated, because that's the way it's set up in our country to provide money to the music maker.

If it's recognizable, it's a violation. It can get fussier than that, and has more to do with the "essence" of a composition or recording than any kind of arbitrary time limit. Can you imagine the first two notes of John Williams' "Jaws" theme? Definitely the essence of that composition, right? The idea, the feeling, is communicated. Not very long, is it? It's not about length. It's about taking someone else's idea and pretending it's your own, or at least using it as if it's your own. It was someone else's idea.

It's not a perfect system by any means, and you can philosophize about it all day, but at the end of that day, while you may kvetch about it when you're on the wrong side of it, it is also the same system by which you as a composer or performer can, if you care enough to inform yourself and understand how it works, earn real dollars from the creative work you have made.

Cheers.

Old 21st September 2011
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpyLoo View Post
let's be ****ing real on the other side for a moment.
there are real horrors happening in this world. real crimes.
copyright infringement is bad and wrong and all that.
but don't compare it to violence, let alonemurder.
one person's murder is and will always be worse than 100 billion copyright infringements.
okay
so you say copyright theft is okay
but you draw the line at murder

some people have more refined ethics than you do
Old 21st September 2011
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
okay
so you say copyright theft is okay
but you draw the line at murder

some people have more refined ethics than you do


I never said 'copyright theft is okay'
because i don't think it is.

i just don't like people resorting to reckless hyperbole to make a point.

edit: if you had actually *read* what I wrote...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpyLoo View Post
copyright infringement is bad and wrong and all that.
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