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Old 5th January 2011
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
We have been exactly here, bazillions-- why people still speed, even people who have gotten tickets for it in the past, is the same four dreaded syllables "human nature."
Yeah, but you like others always ignore the elephant in the room.
Allow people to speed, with no law enforcement and no legislated consequences, and absolute carnage is visited on the motorist.

Quote:
In 2009 alone, the UK had the safest roads with 3.8 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants. By contrast, Malaysia is bottom of the pile with a staggering 23.8.
Do you need a clue as to which country has the most speed cameras, active highway police force and stiffer penalties?

I mean, look down the list and judge which countries have a less anarchic approach to road law.

Quote:
Road deaths per 100,000 population (2009):

Malaysia - 23.8
Argentina - 18.4
Greece - 13.8
Cambodia - 12.6..........
(snip)
Japan - 4.5
Switzerland - 4.5
Norway - 4.4
Israel - 4.2
Sweden - 3.9
Netherlands - 3.9
UK - 3.8

With stats like that, you'd reasonably wonder how music piracy might be effected by a less anarchic internet.
Allow people to download with no attempt to slow or halt them, and absolute carnage is visited on the creator.
Old 5th January 2011
  #32
"Elephant in my room, WHY is piracy allowed to happen uninhibited, when everyone knows it's illegal?"

"Well, to tell you the truth, because no one's getting killed. Some percentage of content that flows over the phone wires is undoubtedly 'stolen'-- there's a vagueness to that word when you're describing something that has no physical existence, but all the same, it's 'purloined.' You could also ask me why criminals are allowed to use the phone to hatch their plots and conspiracies. Because: monitoring every conversation to catch the crooks would be monstrously impractical, even though the benefits would be real and tangible. It's like that alot with you humans-- there's always trade-offs that seek some kind of equilibrium. You seem to have decided that you should base everything on a cost/benefit analysis. I mean, look-- you allow a certain amount of mercury in your tuna fish-- why? Why not throw out ALL the tuna with any trace? We would! It's because you feel like that would throw a monkey wrench into the whole system, and system collapse is too high a price to pay for pristinely pure tuna-- or maybe it's a tacit acknowledgment that YOU put the mercury in the ocean in the first place! Got any peanuts?"
Old 5th January 2011
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
"Elephant in my room, WHY is piracy allowed to happen uninhibited, when everyone knows it's illegal?"
Because everyone can get away with it, the same way people can get away with ignoring traffic legislation in greece (check out their fatality stats).

You brought up the speeding analogy. Trouble is it perfectly debunks your theory that laws have little or no effect on behaviour.
Laws when enforced, significantly reduce anarchic behaviour - see UK and Scandinavian road fatality stats. Laws when not in existence or virtually unenforceable due to anarchic behaviour result in widespread piracy and carnage on the roads (see fatality stats for Malaysia and Argentina).

And now because your traffic legislation theory is faltering you've changed tack to it's too hard, or too expensive to reduce piracy on the net.
Old 5th January 2011
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Sure thing, chief. Speeding on the highway is also very illegal. Technically. If you try it while a police car is hiding nearby in the bushes, you'll get caught and have to pay the fine.

Why, after a hundred years of automobile use, and countless Wars on Speeding, does anyone still do it? Are we waiting for an era when enforcement will finally kick in?

Wait-- the Federal Trade Commission will decree that no car can be manufactured that will exceed 55 mph. That's the answer.
Q: and how many lives are saved annually as a result of that enforcement
A: ALOT

it's a distraction to attempt to confuse the MANAGEMENT of a crime with the silly idea of ELIMINATING the crime. the former is know to work, the later is not - and that is why we have laws.

if all laws were 100% ineffective, why waste resources having them at all - fortunately this is not true, and enforcement is a proven deterrent in the goal of crime REDUCTION...
Old 5th January 2011
  #35
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Allow people to speed, with no law enforcement and no legislated consequences, and absolute carnage is visited on the motorist.
Montana: No Speed Limit Safety Paradox

Also:

http://blog.motorists.org/red-light-...that-prove-it/

The autobahn also seems to have better safety records than regulated US highways.
Old 5th January 2011
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
... you've changed tack ...

I haven't changed anything. I don't have any control over any of this. If you think I do, you're mistaken.

I am trying to see why things are the way they are. I think I've made a pretty good case: because status quos come into being to balance the overall interests of everyone. Even though they might be unconscionably cruel to a select few.

How is it that when I agree with you, but I try to describe why we are where we are, I am some kind of demon?
Old 5th January 2011
  #37
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post


The autobahn also seems to have better safety records than regulated US highways.
lol

Have you seen what they put into the autobahn? the money and technology behind it? the R&D, the maintenance, the cameras etc. etc. etc. etc. bloody etc.???

It's regulated alright, just in a different way...
Old 5th January 2011
  #38
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Id Ridden View Post
lol

Have you seen what they put into the autobahn? the money and technology behind it? the R&D, the maintenance, the cameras etc. etc. etc. etc. bloody etc.???

It's regulated alright, just in a different way...

...and yet no camber, narrow lanes and full of holes.......

Safety records - surely car design has a lot to do with that...... ? I had a great laugh in the States a couple of months ago - couldn't believe that a new car was being sold on having a split differential! Like Eh?
Old 5th January 2011
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Montana: No Speed Limit Safety Paradox

Also:

Red-Light Cameras Increase Accidents: 5 Studies That Prove It

The autobahn also seems to have better safety records than regulated US highways.

Sorry my friend, you are looking for selective evidence.
The basic worldwide stats speak for themselves. You can change behaviour with the right laws and by enforcing them.
Forget about Montana and Autobahns, what about LA where you can find yourself standing at the crossroads alongside gangbangers and pimps waiting for the little walking man to change from red to green.
Old 5th January 2011
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
I haven't changed anything.
You posted an argument, effectively that laws don't change behaviour (eg speeding). then when I proved you most likely could (road fatality figures worldwide) you changed your argument to one of cost benefits, the expense and inconvenience of enforcing laws.
Old 5th January 2011
  #41
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
...and yet no camber, narrow lanes and full of holes.......

Safety records - surely car design has a lot to do with that...... ? I had a great laugh in the States a couple of months ago - couldn't believe that a new car was being sold on having a split differential! Like Eh?
no camber? interesting, i thought it was, or is it just sloped? the roads here are awful, and they are always stopping traffic working on them one way to cut down on speeders anyways...

split differential that's some hi-tec ish, 4 round wheels and a windshield is still marketing gold up here heh JK
Old 5th January 2011
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
You posted ... then when I proved .. you changed your argument to ...
It's kind of a fallacy, he said with the heaviest eyelids of irony, to think that pointing out where exactly the analogies I offer up fall short somehow cancels out their relevance entirely.

We are not arguing a case infront of a jury, who will decide which of us should triumph in this case-- I'm not, anyway. We are exploring the in's, out's and sideways's of the Big Picture-- how piracy operates in the sphere of the internet with seeming impunity, and what can and should be done about it.

The tremendous, unbelievable, outlandish benefits the Internet has bestowed on people and other living creatures have come with some drawbacks. These are intertwined with vast complexity. Baby, bathwater. Innocence and guilt.
Old 6th January 2011
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
It's kind of a fallacy, he said with the heaviest eyelids of irony, to think that pointing out where exactly the analogies I offer up fall short somehow cancels out their relevance entirely.
Again, I just pointed out you changed your argument.
Old 6th January 2011
  #44
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