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Here's a thought... Studio Headphones
Old 31st December 2010
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Here's a thought...

I've spoken with a bunch of pirates over the years, and I keep hearing a returning argument. "I download the album because I don't know if the album is any good or not". This got me thinking how bands could start killing two birds with 1 stone. Back in the day lots of artists would road test tracks on tour and would be tight enough by session day to nail tracks without waiting to enter the studio to start the writing, arranging, process. This was generally true amongst jazz acts.

So why can't this work now?

1. It would get the buzz and excitement started over the new music amongst fans, and fans will know what they're getting to some degree.

2. Rumor of fresh material will bring fans to the shows.

3. Less time spent in the studio. Artists/Labels can afford professional facilities with the smaller time frame.

4. Less time editing and arranging because the music is rehearsed and ready to go.

So in essence, the tour promotes the album instead of the other way around.
Old 31st December 2010
  #2
Huh, who says bands no longer road test material??????

In any case, the vast majority of pirates don't go to live shows.
What is required I suppose is a better online auditioning mechanism, a few seconds on iTunes or Amazon is not enough.

But my next question to you is this.....
If your friends download an album and decide yes it is kick ass, do they delete their illegal download and cough up the $10 for the legal version???????????
Old 31st December 2010
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Huh, who says bands no longer road test material??????
They do a lot at the bar and night club level, but not many of those bands should even consider entering a studio. I've been to 10+ big time live shows this year, and I think I heard 2 new tracks. I'm talking about tours that are dedicated to the new songs. Getting feedback from your audience before entering the studio would help mold a product they want.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But my next question to you is this.....
If your friends download an album and decide yes it is kick ass, do they delete their illegal download and cough up the $10 for the legal version???????????
Who said they were my friends? Around 1/2 of them go out and buy the record. That's a pretty promising figure.
Old 31st December 2010
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
I've spoken with a bunch of pirates over the years, and I keep hearing a returning argument. "I download the album because I don't know if the album is any good or not".
such a weak argument, there are TONS of legal ways to hear entire songs for free without pirating an album

itunes just increased song samples to 90 seconds...

this conversation always end the same way with pirates "give it to us for free or we'll steal it anyway"... not much to say to that...
Old 31st December 2010
  #5
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

it is indeed a weak argument and not one worth paying any attention too! That's one of the points of commercial music - creating the "hook" that draws you in.
Old 31st December 2010
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
such a weak argument, there are TONS of legal ways to hear entire songs for free without pirating an album

itunes just increased song samples to 90 seconds...

this conversation always end the same way with pirates "give it to us for free or we'll steal it anyway"... not much to say to that...
In this case the product is out already, and they have the choice between pay, or free. Lets get the fans into the music before they official/y release an album. Let the guys with their video cameras take low quality takes of the new material. Let the world know about your new music.
Old 31st December 2010
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
I've been to 10+ big time live shows this year, and I think I heard 2 new tracks.
Well the 'big time shows' that are doing the rounds this year are old time established acts (see my thread on the 50 biggest tours of 2010).
The public are paying to hear the hits, they don't want to hear new songs they've never heard before. This is a comment you'll see often when criticising concerts - "they didn't play the hits. I'd never heard half the songs before."
Besides, these big acts are no longer selling new material on album any more.
They are surviving (post piracy) by touring their hits.
Secondly, there has been a revolution in the studio scene.
Most artists are recording more or less free of charge at home. They're writing the material as they go along.
If you think most bands are walking in to commercial studios completely unprepared, I don't think you've been into commercial studios much lately.
Old 31st December 2010
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
it is indeed a weak argument and not one worth paying any attention too! That's one of the points of commercial music - creating the "hook" that draws you in.
Which brings me to another point. Why don't labels buy up venues, decrease ticket prices or maybe make shows free, and use the shows as a commercial. People are bombarded with free advertisements all the time, and guess what!? They buy it!
Old 31st December 2010
  #9
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
If you think most bands are walking in to commercial studios completely unprepared, I don't think you've been into commercial studios much lately.
I sure have, and you know what I see? Bands with good tunes with arrangements that are a total mess. Walls of guitar parts, extra percussion tracks, synths that go on for miles, and a choir of overdubbed voices that do nothing to serve the songs. But why not if you can do it right? WRONG! They couldn't arrange parts to serve the song if their lives depended on. They wait for session day to make all the decisions.
Old 31st December 2010
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
In this case the product is out already, and they have the choice between pay, or free. Lets get the fans into the music before they official/y release an album. Let the guys with their video cameras take low quality takes of the new material. Let the world know about your new music.
how many bands can book shows to play music no one has ever heard before they arrive at a club? people make an effort to go out and hear music they like.
Old 31st December 2010
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
how many bands can book shows to play music no one has ever heard before they arrive at a club? people make an effort to go out and hear music they like.
Bands that are worth half a crap. Bands that have label support because they're worth it. Not the weekend warriors, and not some kids with a laptop. Does this mean downsizing acts. Hell yeah it does. Less jobs in the music industry, but people will get paid. In the 40s and 50s there were a less acts out there, but players were making $500.00 a night PER PERSON. That's a few thousand by today's standard.
Old 31st December 2010
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
Bands that are worth half a crap. Bands that have label support because they're worth it.
I think you're missing two vital things....
1) Label support is dwindling as labels feel the huge financial impact of illegal downloading.
2) Labels are uninterested in buying live venues because like many of us they see the live music scene as fragile, just like the record buying scene. In addition, with most music available for free (illegally), wouldn't it be complete madness to put on free shows hoping to persuade people to buy your product?
The current, overwhelming evidence is they wont pay for something they can obtain free of charge.
Old 31st December 2010
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
In the 40s and 50s there were a less acts out there, but players were making $500.00 a night PER PERSON. That's a few thousand by today's standard.
On what evidence?
Many black musicians were having to move from America to Europe to even get a gig.
Old 31st December 2010
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
On what evidence?
Many black musicians were having to move from America to Europe to even get a gig.
Don't you think that was more of a race issue?
Old 31st December 2010
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
Bands that are worth half a crap. Bands that have label support because they're worth it. Not the weekend warriors, and not some kids with a laptop. Does this mean downsizing acts. Hell yeah it does. Less jobs in the music industry, but people will get paid. In the 40s and 50s there were a less acts out there, but players were making $500.00 a night PER PERSON. That's a few thousand by today's standard.
uh dude... don't you think those signed bands are already playing songs out live before they're released? the problem is, touring is not the solution, nor is t-shirts... and the problem is, once the music is released, it's everywhere, for free, instantly...

this subject has been beaten to death, but if you want to get up to speed, start here:

I guess touring isn't going to save music . . .

More... Touring is(n't) going to save music.
Old 31st December 2010
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
Don't you think that was more of a race issue?
Of course, but it was also an economic reality.
You just made the blanket statement that musicians made $500 a night.
How many, and what's your proof?
Old 31st December 2010
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
... They couldn't arrange parts to serve the song if their lives depended on. They wait for session day to make all the decisions.
I bet they don't see why they should have to pay for a producer, either, just like they don't see why they should pay for a mastering engineer when having the mix engineer "brickwall" it for a small extra fee seems close enough.
Old 31st December 2010
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Of course, but it was also an economic reality.
You just made the blanket statement that musicians made $500 a night.
How many, and what's your proof?
It's off some pretty standard Music Business reading at Berklee. Big band players and bop players (bop players in the North) were raking in cash like crazy. I'll have to drum up those books. They're somewhere in my closet.
Old 31st December 2010
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lives For Fuzz View Post
such a weak argument, there are TONS of legal ways to hear entire songs for free without pirating an album ...
I hear Motorhead have a new album out. I've heard a single on the radio. Where do I get to listen to the whole album so I can decide whether I like it (and buy it if I do)? I'd even pay (a small amount) for the chance to listen to it right the way through. I'm not prepared to buy it outright "sight unheard" at the prices in this country.
Old 31st December 2010
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I hear Motorhead have a new album out. I've heard a single on the radio. Where do I get to listen to the whole album so I can decide whether I like it (and buy it if I do)? I'd even pay (a small amount) for the chance to listen to it right the way through. I'm not prepared to buy it outright "sight unheard" at the prices in this country.
So you're already a Motorhead fan I take it, and you'd probably go to their show anyway, right? So what if their headline show promoted their new album through and through? Wouldn't that be nice?
Old 31st December 2010
  #21
Gear Maniac
Now that music is so easily/widely pirated and the economy is sputtering, people who wouldn't normally download pirated music will get used to getting it for free along with becoming accustomed to listening to the degraded sound quality.

Marketing will have to move most of the physical/digital units that get moved. That may or may not make an artist famous enough to make money from touring/product endorsement. This seems to be the way things are headed.
Old 31st December 2010
  #22
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
I've spoken with a bunch of pirates over the years, and I keep hearing a returning argument. "I download the album because I don't know if the album is any good or not". This got me thinking how bands could start killing two birds with 1 stone. Back in the day lots of artists would road test tracks on tour and would be tight enough by session day to nail tracks without waiting to enter the studio to start the writing, arranging, process. This was generally true amongst jazz acts.

So why can't this work now?

1. It would get the buzz and excitement started over the new music amongst fans, and fans will know what they're getting to some degree.

2. Rumor of fresh material will bring fans to the shows.

3. Less time spent in the studio. Artists/Labels can afford professional facilities with the smaller time frame.

4. Less time editing and arranging because the music is rehearsed and ready to go.

So in essence, the tour promotes the album instead of the other way around.
Not all music is, nor should all of it be, constrained to/by, the burdens of 'live' performance.

The Beatles showed us the potential 44 years ago, a potential that, unchained by the restraints of having to worry about recreating their art in live performance, some feel created the pinnacle of their catalog and of what 'modern' recording technology can offer. Imagine that the case today.

It 'could' be said that playing live, and/or having to play live is as outdated as the horse & buggy, when it was the ONLY means of transporting your music to an audience.

The 'performance' of sound these days gets FAR too entwined with the 'art' of performance/visual entertainment as opposed to the 'art' of sound creation for it's own sake. To the point that the former becomes the point of sale and the sound becomes backdrop, and too some degree it was already 'devalued' in that stance.

It would be a sad day indeed for sound artist to have to huck & jive all the way back to an 1800's business model to get their art out...in these days of 'fast' information/creation, with a thousand points of audience to artist connectivity.

I've been at this 35 years. With the exclusion of THREE bands, every point of exposure to a new artist that found me smitten was from an album via word of mouth and/or radio. And of those, I've only seen a handful (I just bought 4 albums (vinyl) by one artist (Ratatat) two days ago, because of a thread on another forum (TGP), posting new bands, I will never seem them live in all likely-hood).

IME that is the majority of any listeners/fans experience. Live WAS the pinnacle because it was an event, it was rare, it was the cherry on top after you'd long been hooked.

How about we just figure out how to slow the bleeding back to a survivable rate of flow, instead of allowing thieves to rape and pillage, more is at stake than the livli-hoods of artist quite actually....it's bad social precedent, historically speaking, for our future.....if we don't.
Old 31st December 2010
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I hear Motorhead have a new album out. I've heard a single on the radio. Where do I get to listen to the whole album so I can decide whether I like it (and buy it if I do)?
The official release date is Jan 25th 2011.
We'll see after then shall we.
Old 31st December 2010
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by japancakes View Post
So you're already a Motorhead fan I take it, and you'd probably go to their show anyway, right? So what if their headline show promoted their new album through and through? Wouldn't that be nice?
No, it wouldn't be nice.
I have liked some previous Motorhead albums. I'd probably go see them if they came to town, because I know they'd play a lot of the tracks that I love. But if they played the new album in its entirety at the expense of their hits I probably wouldn't go - tickets for an act the size of Motorhead are far too expensive to bet on an unknown quantity. Touring bands have always understood this.
Old 31st December 2010
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlusSix456 View Post
...
The Beatles showed us the potential 44 years ago, a potential that, unchained by the restraints of having to worry about recreating their art in live performance, some feel created the pinnacle of their catalog and of what 'modern' recording technology can offer. ...
"Recreating their art in live performance" was irrelevant, anyway. after the first 3 chords, you couldn't hear their music for the screaming from the audience. heh
Old 31st December 2010
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The official release date is Jan 25th 2011.
We'll see after then shall we.
Already marked on the calendar. (My wife and oldest daughter told me about it, I've been too busy to even listen to the radio lately...)

With a bit of luck, Radio Hauraki will play it in its entirety. (Appropriate, because they started life as a pirate radio station broadcasing from outside the 12 mile limit.)
Old 31st December 2010
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I have liked some previous Motorhead albums. I'd probably go see them if they came to town, because I know they'd play a lot of the tracks that I love. But if they played the new album in its entirety at the expense of their hits I probably wouldn't go -
I've played enough gigs to know even playing the songs from an album that's been out 6 months to a year can leave the audience cold.
People always want to hear the hits, and will merely tolerate a few songs they haven't heard before or don't know as well.
Old 31st December 2010
  #28
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I've played enough gigs to know even playing the songs from an album that's been out 6 months to a year can leave the audience cold.
People always want to hear the hits, and will merely tolerate a few songs they haven't heard before or don't know as well.
Then we should all quit this masquerade. Lets all go on strike and lets see how the fans feel when no new music comes out for a year.
Old 31st December 2010
  #29
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

It's weird isn't it? Things have changed SOOO much. Now people only want to pay for an album they know they like already. Music used to be about educating yourself along the lines of the artist you were into - the whole POINT of buying a new record was to experience something new, not try it out for a week and then decide if you want it. One of the very great things about being a music consumer is finding the new and exciting. The risk is finding the dross - but that's the whole point!

This brings me on to a second point - people complain about "filler". Albums of artists don't contain filler - the contain tracks that you don't like. In reality that actually boils down to a simple thing - you don't like that band. For me - it's ALL about an acts overall statement. Nobody listens to albums in the same way anymore - some of the best songs from artists like Queen, Bowie, the Stones or more modern acts like QOTSA or MGMT are the tracks you initially dont get. It takes TIME to appreciate good music. The singles are often the ones that you grow weary of quickly....

So how baout this : go out once a month and take a risk - buy a new record/CD/download. "they're too expensive".... I hear people cry. Bollocks. How much is a pint of beer? Fish & Chips? a litre of engine oil? Music isn't expensive. The problem with modern expectations is immediate satisfaction. Buy that album, give it a chance and enjoy music at the level of the artist creating it - instead of expecting a super charged coke hit.heh
Old 31st December 2010
  #30
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I hear Motorhead have a new album out. I've heard a single on the radio. Where do I get to listen to the whole album so I can decide whether I like it (and buy it if I do)? I'd even pay (a small amount) for the chance to listen to it right the way through. I'm not prepared to buy it outright "sight unheard" at the prices in this country.
Even though someone else said that it hasn't been released yet, when it is released you will probably be able to find all the songs on youtube within a couple of hours/days of its release.

Thats how I usually try out music. I know that most big copyright holders have a deal with youtube where they inform them how they want youtube to handle a situation where their copyrighted material appears on their site, and youtube has said the majority of copyright holders allow the majority of songs to be left alone as publicity for the song.

Probably wouldn't be able to do that for some really low key independent or local albums, but for most albums I've found stuff on youtube.
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