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Artists: Labels need YOU --- NOT the other way around Modular Synthesizers
Old 18th April 2010
  #211
I'd love see/hear all the responses you get here on GS to this post.

There are a lot of people here preaching the anti-label, DYI, tech savior, Music/Web 2.0 Gospel... If ever there were a band where all this new technology should be able to help, sustain, and build a career I'd say you are a perfect example.

So for all those who have the answers, I'd love to see the advice to this artist who is clearly doing their own work... how do they survive and Profit... Pay The Bills, Return On Investment...

I want to see the Pro-Piracy Web/Music 2.0 crowd give some solid advice here...

If the internet has made it possible for bands not to need labels, let's see how it's done.

Great Post - Great Question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmapol1ce View Post
well what do you guys say to the artists then? all this talk about the "artists". You guys seems to know your ****. So guide us.

my band has self- released two records. Sold out of both pressings of 1000. charted on CMJ, toured across the east coast and midwest for months on end. We play the CMJs, the SXSW, even the occasional big festival like Voodoo Fest. Our record got played at over a hundred college stations across the country, and everyone who see us live LOVES us. We've done and funded everything ourselves- from booking, to paying for professional recordings, all of it. We make money and make fans everywhere we go- in fact, we have been going for it for about a year since we all quit our jobs to tour.

we're sitting on a record now that i think is the best thing we ever done and trying to figure out the best way to release it. i think the sound straddles indie but is radio friendly enough to be major. and we feel like we're ready to just go for it beyond all belief.

But how do you get out there to people actually IN the industry?

to me, it seems like indie labels are looking for a very specific aesthetic nowadays. And they're not that interested in what you've done or how many records you've sold- they're interested only in finding the next band to appeal to their niche of fans they've collected. the indies that you can contact on your own are too small to really even do anything more than what we can and have done for ourselves. The bigger indies operate almost like majors. Can't even send in an unsolicited demo anymore to places like matador. They're like trendy smaller majors now.

but major labels you can say, "hey look, I've done this" and they of course are interested in the dollars and cents of it all, and they would seem to be interested, but you might as well try to get the CEO of Walmart himself on the telephone.

So what the **** do you do? shop to indie labels who don't really want to be shopped to? Shop to majors? Just sit around and wait for someone to figure it out? Send out a hundred emails like the ****ty bands who just want to be signed and have no idea what it means to work for themselves?

self-release yet again, and hope that this is the record that sells dramatically more despite not having that much more resources than the ones before it?
Old 18th April 2010
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsbarricades View Post
b) of no use because nobody will visit the site to read the review in the first place.
99% of reviews......


Online promo doesnt work through reviews. Working on pretty big projects here and reviews ain't it. The public is no longer swayed by reviews! .... I certainly dont focus any of our PR campaigns into online reviewing - the return just , well, isn't. All our internet presence is "street team" led...... viral, word of mouth, chat groups, oodles of forums etc etc
Old 19th April 2010
  #213
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I don't know anyone here in serious conversation who is pro piracy, so i am wondering who that inflammatory chat is directed at?

my response would be what happens after you sell out a pressing? did you make more? what is the typical rate of sale in a given month, and is it growing?

secondly, what is the online footprint? media, social networking? are there any bases not being covered?

the top tiers of the industry are not going to fall easily. they will fall, but not soon enough, and not soon enough for these guys and their current album.

imagine a "top 9 at 9" on the local pop channel, with independent local music given a fair shake alongside of the singing ***** of the month, by a PD who has a functioning ear?

imagine if james cameron said, hey, we are doing an all independent unsigned soundtrack for avatar 2.

in both examples, if done properly, the program would be improved, the product would cost far less to all involved, but the existing good ol boy network would throw a fit and bury their heads in the corner of narco's green couch.

it's coming.
Old 19th April 2010
  #214
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..... again assuming I'm part of the "old guard" which is so bizarre as to be unreal!!
Old 19th April 2010
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petermichael View Post
I don't know anyone here in serious conversation who is pro piracy, so i am wondering who that inflammatory chat is directed at?

my response would be what happens after you sell out a pressing? did you make more? what is the typical rate of sale in a given month, and is it growing?

secondly, what is the online footprint? media, social networking? are there any bases not being covered?

the top tiers of the industry are not going to fall easily. they will fall, but not soon enough, and not soon enough for these guys and their current album.

imagine a "top 9 at 9" on the local pop channel, with independent local music given a fair shake alongside of the singing ***** of the month, by a PD who has a functioning ear?

imagine if james cameron said, hey, we are doing an all independent unsigned soundtrack for avatar 2.

in both examples, if done properly, the program would be improved, the product would cost far less to all involved, but the existing good ol boy network would throw a fit and bury their heads in the corner of narco's green couch.

it's coming.
If Cameron could get a soundtrack together that worked for his movie, based on $100 a track responses to a craigslist ad, then he WOULD.
He can't.
that has zero to do with his desire to perpetuate an "old boy's network".
It is entirely about his desire for a level of professionalism and consistency in his film.

you may very well be right, that the "top tiers of the industry are going to fall"

what you haven't realised is how incredibly sad, and worried, you should be about that

prepare for the era of NOTHING but refrigerator art.
Old 19th April 2010
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
99% of reviews......


Online promo doesnt work through reviews. Working on pretty big projects here and reviews ain't it. The public is no longer swayed by reviews! .... I certainly dont focus any of our PR campaigns into online reviewing - the return just , well, isn't. All our internet presence is "street team" led...... viral, word of mouth, chat groups, oodles of forums etc etc
can you give more examples of that?
what would a plan look like for a release that you were preparing to pop?

How much money is a reasonable amount?
Old 19th April 2010
  #217
Jam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
you may very well be right, that the "top tiers of the industry are going to fall"

what you haven't realised is how incredibly sad, and worried, you should be about that

prepare for the era of NOTHING but refrigerator art.
Well said. I share this concern.

James
Old 19th April 2010
  #218
And what Gearslutters don't seem to realise is that the people who populate 'the top tier' aren't going to disappear in a poof.
They'll move to populate any scene lower down where they can still regularly work.
So lower and mid level studio personnel and musicians should worry about the effect of a collapse in the top tier.
Your involvement in music is just as much at risk.
Old 20th April 2010
  #219
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Very good points wwitman and Crisso.

If you currently are somewhere in the middle, or even the bottom trying to climb the ladder...
Careful what you wish for; cause if "the top fall" they will be falling onTOP of the guy below and so on. The middle will get pushed further down the ladder, and the bottom will fall off completely...
Old 20th April 2010
  #220
I don't think it'd be good for the big guys to fail; just change. They have the power, and the finances, just... not the heart =P
Old 20th April 2010
  #221
I don't understand what you mean?
Old 20th April 2010
  #222
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i actualy think it's the other way round. movies makers like peter jackson etc are moving towards digital and away from trad film cos it is faster and cheaper. straight from cam-disk to edit-suite to web. 1, 2, 3. no digi transfers and then back to film again for the prints

red cams now make a cheap body, and more will come with stuff like panasonic bringing a new micro 4/3-inch lense cam this year the feild is gonna really open up

this creates massive opportunities for upcoming directors who can forgo alot of the usual funding routes and they can publish direct to the web bypassing distribution requirements (at least to popularise/promote)

also the greats all started with cheap cams as a hobby as kids. so perhaps we need to ask what would happen if all those speilbergs and Raimi's etc back in their youth could have made their films and uploaded them direct to the www.

the point is technology in music and now film is bringing some good things, democratising both art forms to a great extent.

That leaves one problem. the distribution monopoly.


checkout this red footage:






times are changing.
Old 20th April 2010
  #223
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this is a good video - gives you some idea in their world whats changing over time - we know how our industry has chanegd technicaly but check this:



(shame the guy hasnt sorted his mic rumble, lol)

the scarlet is out now btw - i think they are like 3.5k usd
Old 20th April 2010
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
i actualy think it's the other way round. movies makers like peter jackson etc are moving towards digital and away from trad film cos it is faster and cheaper. straight from cam-disk to edit-suite to web. ...
I listened to a three hour rant from a friend who works on features about this the other night.

It seems that the problems created by the indecisiveness of the digital approach actually makes production more expensive and severely impairs the quality of the acting.

A large percentage of music turned into animation (aka MIDI) during the '90s. This hasn't happened in film. It still costs big bucks to put anything people are willing to pay to see in front of a lens. The difference in cost between film and digital is chickenfeed when taken within the context of producing a real feature on a real set with real stars and a real promotion budget.
Old 20th April 2010
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
i actualy think it's the other way round. movies makers like peter jackson etc are moving towards digital and away from trad film cos it is faster and cheaper. straight from cam-disk to edit-suite to web. 1, 2, 3. no digi transfers and then back to film again for the prints

red cams now make a cheap body, and more will come with stuff like panasonic bringing a new micro 4/3-inch lense cam this year the feild is gonna really open up

this creates massive opportunities for upcoming directors who can forgo alot of the usual funding routes and they can publish direct to the web bypassing distribution requirements (at least to popularise/promote)

also the greats all started with cheap cams as a hobby as kids. so perhaps we need to ask what would happen if all those speilbergs and Raimi's etc back in their youth could have made their films and uploaded them direct to the www.

the point is technology in music and now film is bringing some good things, democratising both art forms to a great extent.

That leaves one problem. the distribution monopoly.


checkout this red footage:

(youtube videos)

times are changing.
I'll raise you one. Check out this RED footage (NSFW, no nudity, but it would be awkward):



watch it in HD
Old 20th April 2010
  #226
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RED's have been used for a while. Past year or so just about every single music video has been done with a $1700 Canon digital camera. I know of 2 small budget (under 1 mill) movies currently being filmed with a Canon.
Old 20th April 2010
  #227
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kate beckinsale, no bloody thanks! ewww
Old 20th April 2010
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
kate beckinsale, no bloody thanks! ewww
+1 like the female equivalent of a burger.
Old 20th April 2010
  #229
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hey btw those new canon XF305 and XF300 look juicy!!!
Old 20th April 2010
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
kate beckinsale, no bloody thanks! ewww
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
+1 like the female equivalent of a burger.
what the hell is wrong with you guys? does she have bony knees or something??
Old 20th April 2010
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scud133 View Post
what the hell is wrong with you guys? does she have bony knees or something??
Not that I can spot, but I'm worried about what happens when she starts to speak.
Old 20th April 2010
  #232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
+1 like the female equivalent of a burger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
hey btw those new canon XF305 and XF300 look juicy!!!
comments like that make me feel like I don't know something you do...but at the same time I think back to how going college for music turned me off to so much music... so in the end I'm happy enjoying her AMAZING BODY!

One day I hope to enjoy it when it's not just pixels =,(
Old 20th April 2010
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karmapol1ce View Post
can you give more examples of that?
what would a plan look like for a release that you were preparing to pop?

How much money is a reasonable amount?
All the music I work with has an involvement in sync license - even the bands. Selling records is a support part of my projects these days. Putting out a promo campaign for a record is generally part of a bigger picture - often just CV building. So putting a figure on this is difficult - but invariably it's a share of a three or four million pound campaign - we then bolt onto it virally etc etc with a 5 figure expenditure.
Old 21st April 2010
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
If Cameron could get a soundtrack together that worked for his movie, based on $100 a track responses to a craigslist ad, then he WOULD.
He can't.
that has zero to do with his desire to perpetuate an "old boy's network".
It is entirely about his desire for a level of professionalism and consistency in his film.

you may very well be right, that the "top tiers of the industry are going to fall"

what you haven't realised is how incredibly sad, and worried, you should be about that

prepare for the era of NOTHING but refrigerator art.
heh
Craigslist? 100 $ Who said that? Are you an elitist much. Ha, Cameron would suffer quality to go outside of the usual circles? That is where you old school folks lose out. You seem to think there is some kind of stranglehold on art itself. As if there is not some punk kid right now coming up with the best thing yet in his bedroom. As if no one will hear it because the top tier of the industry will not be able to carry on as they have been. That somehow music itself will die out. And I really love how you equate refrigerator art to what is coming. I laugh at your statement. What is coming is far better than what is, and what ever was. The musicians of the future aren't going to have islands, and aircraft, but they will do well as long as they can produce a good product.

Why? Because the filters are growing, the vehicle for sorting through the quagmire and locating the gems is being refined every day. And every day, those "pro" tracks are becoming less and less distinct from what some normal schmoe can do with audacity. That's right I said it. The beatles would have been delighted with audacity. The big studios are wondering why business is not as good? As if the law of diminishing returns doesn't apply to them, when they are the greatest violators of that law? Please.

The future relies less and less on some marketing campaign and mad money dumped on a personality in a mega studio, and relies more and more on the actual damn quality of the song. And not that it was recorded in 96bit, but rather that it's just good music.

So what do I really see falling, and really want to pull up a chair and just watch the show? Any of you who represent that idea that your education, or pedigree, or resume somehow can save you from the equation that the best song should be the song getting the plays, the sales and the attention. You in the camp of a system of musical royalty, when it's a really turning into a democracy, with the voting done with dollars and pounds.

And I couldn't be happier with my situation right now. And i couldn't be happier with the continued watering down of big radio on the daily basis, and the continued sky is crashing talk and worried looks on all the faces that aren't in the right.

So call me the troll today, as I've said before and will say again. Let's all get back here in January and compare notes for the last 12.
Old 21st April 2010
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petermichael View Post
heh
Craigslist? 100 $ Who said that? Are you an elitist much. Ha, Cameron would suffer quality to go outside of the usual circles? That is where you old school folks lose out. You seem to think there is some kind of stranglehold on art itself. As if there is not some punk kid right now coming up with the best thing yet in his bedroom. As if no one will hear it because the top tier of the industry will not be able to carry on as they have been. That somehow music itself will die out. And I really love how you equate refrigerator art to what is coming. I laugh at your statement. What is coming is far better than what is, and what ever was. The musicians of the future aren't going to have islands, and aircraft, but they will do well as long as they can produce a good product.

Why? Because the filters are growing, the vehicle for sorting through the quagmire and locating the gems is being refined every day. And every day, those "pro" tracks are becoming less and less distinct from what some normal schmoe can do with audacity. That's right I said it. The beatles would have been delighted with audacity. The big studios are wondering why business is not as good? As if the law of diminishing returns doesn't apply to them, when they are the greatest violators of that law? Please.

The future relies less and less on some marketing campaign and mad money dumped on a personality in a mega studio, and relies more and more on the actual damn quality of the song. And not that it was recorded in 96bit, but rather that it's just good music.

So what do I really see falling, and really want to pull up a chair and just watch the show? Any of you who represent that idea that your education, or pedigree, or resume somehow can save you from the equation that the best song should be the song getting the plays, the sales and the attention. You in the camp of a system of musical royalty, when it's a really turning into a democracy, with the voting done with dollars and pounds.

And I couldn't be happier with my situation right now. And i couldn't be happier with the continued watering down of big radio on the daily basis, and the continued sky is crashing talk and worried looks on all the faces that aren't in the right.

So call me the troll today, as I've said before and will say again. Let's all get back here in January and compare notes for the last 12.


well said that man!
Old 21st April 2010
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petermichael View Post
heh
Craigslist? 100 $ Who said that? Are you an elitist much. Ha, Cameron would suffer quality to go outside of the usual circles? That is where you old school folks lose out. You seem to think there is some kind of stranglehold on art itself. As if there is not some punk kid right now coming up with the best thing yet in his bedroom. As if no one will hear it because the top tier of the industry will not be able to carry on as they have been. That somehow music itself will die out. And I really love how you equate refrigerator art to what is coming. I laugh at your statement. What is coming is far better than what is, and what ever was. The musicians of the future aren't going to have islands, and aircraft, but they will do well as long as they can produce a good product.

Why? Because the filters are growing, the vehicle for sorting through the quagmire and locating the gems is being refined every day. And every day, those "pro" tracks are becoming less and less distinct from what some normal schmoe can do with audacity. That's right I said it. The beatles would have been delighted with audacity. The big studios are wondering why business is not as good? As if the law of diminishing returns doesn't apply to them, when they are the greatest violators of that law? Please.

The future relies less and less on some marketing campaign and mad money dumped on a personality in a mega studio, and relies more and more on the actual damn quality of the song. And not that it was recorded in 96bit, but rather that it's just good music.

So what do I really see falling, and really want to pull up a chair and just watch the show? Any of you who represent that idea that your education, or pedigree, or resume somehow can save you from the equation that the best song should be the song getting the plays, the sales and the attention. You in the camp of a system of musical royalty, when it's a really turning into a democracy, with the voting done with dollars and pounds.

And I couldn't be happier with my situation right now. And i couldn't be happier with the continued watering down of big radio on the daily basis, and the continued sky is crashing talk and worried looks on all the faces that aren't in the right.

So call me the troll today, as I've said before and will say again. Let's all get back here in January and compare notes for the last 12.
Hear hear, couldn't have said it better myself.
Old 21st April 2010
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petermichael View Post
heh
Craigslist? 100 $ Who said that? Are you an elitist much. Ha, Cameron would suffer quality to go outside of the usual circles? That is where you old school folks lose out. You seem to think there is some kind of stranglehold on art itself. As if there is not some punk kid right now coming up with the best thing yet in his bedroom. As if no one will hear it because the top tier of the industry will not be able to carry on as they have been. That somehow music itself will die out. And I really love how you equate refrigerator art to what is coming. I laugh at your statement. What is coming is far better than what is, and what ever was. The musicians of the future aren't going to have islands, and aircraft, but they will do well as long as they can produce a good product.

Why? Because the filters are growing, the vehicle for sorting through the quagmire and locating the gems is being refined every day. And every day, those "pro" tracks are becoming less and less distinct from what some normal schmoe can do with audacity. That's right I said it. The beatles would have been delighted with audacity. The big studios are wondering why business is not as good? As if the law of diminishing returns doesn't apply to them, when they are the greatest violators of that law? Please.

The future relies less and less on some marketing campaign and mad money dumped on a personality in a mega studio, and relies more and more on the actual damn quality of the song. And not that it was recorded in 96bit, but rather that it's just good music.

So what do I really see falling, and really want to pull up a chair and just watch the show? Any of you who represent that idea that your education, or pedigree, or resume somehow can save you from the equation that the best song should be the song getting the plays, the sales and the attention. You in the camp of a system of musical royalty, when it's a really turning into a democracy, with the voting done with dollars and pounds.

And I couldn't be happier with my situation right now. And i couldn't be happier with the continued watering down of big radio on the daily basis, and the continued sky is crashing talk and worried looks on all the faces that aren't in the right.

So call me the troll today, as I've said before and will say again. Let's all get back here in January and compare notes for the last 12.

ahhhh.... but what you do if you're anything like we are is ONLY work with the gems and THEN add the marketing on top.
Old 21st April 2010
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petermichael View Post
heh


The future relies less and less on some marketing campaign and mad money dumped on a personality in a mega studio, and relies more and more on the actual damn quality of the song. And not that it was recorded in 96bit, but rather that it's just good music.
Now that sounds like a sound buisiness model to me.... It should IMHO be... ALL ABOUT THE MUSC!

Write good songs, record good sounding tracks, and get em out there.....

And if you are a big label, start being picky, and work with talent who can consistantly put out good product.... Artists who can actually play songs all the way through.... Live!!!! In my opinion, working with anything less seems like a waiste of time... Pretty faces will only sell recordss for so long.... If you want longevity, you go for the people who can write and preform the good music...

However, thats just the opinion of someone who has nothing to do with the music industry...

I did get a Buisiness degree though... heh
Old 21st April 2010
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianbryn11 View Post
... Pretty faces will only sell recordss for so long.... If you want longevity, you go for the people who can write and preform the good music...

Remember, Britney Spears has been musically active longer than The Beatles at this moment...heh
Old 21st April 2010
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
ahhhh.... but what you do if you're anything like we are is ONLY work with the gems and THEN add the marketing on top. Maybe that's why things are pretty good for the people I work with !! ..... the problem the part of the industry you rightly detest falls into is trying to use marketing to sell crap. Don't sell crap and marketing BUILDS those very gems.
Narcoman and I are in complete agreement here.

I would say the market is ripe for some good filtering services and some reputable gem finders.
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