The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Artists: Labels need YOU --- NOT the other way around Modular Synthesizers
Old 12th April 2010
  #151
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Steve,

Why the agresivity ?

The funny thing is that I agree with a lot of what you say. I was not disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing with you.

I was just surprised by what you were saying as it didn't reflected what I was believing to be the reality.

I took the time to check and verify, calling people that are in that loop. And while it seems that YES they are way of getting fundings in France it seems that:

1- it is still marginal (not many bands are getting these)
2- there are no correlation between getting these funds and being in the indepedendant circuit.

Read again: yes, you can be signed in a Major and get this help.

So again, yes, I stand partially corrected, because these helps to creation (that is how they call it) exists, but I don't know if this makes a huge difference in the big picture.

Now bellieve me, you won't find a lot of people fighting for independant ways of producing music than myself.

As I didn't intend to be part of a discussion about this turning into a pissing contest, I think I'll politely retire from the discussion.

peace

malice
Old 12th April 2010
  #152
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by malice View Post
Read again: yes, you don't need to be on a Major and get this help.
FYP.

Man that's all I was saying. There is public support for musicians in many countries, and it is available to independents bands. It's not easier here in the US, it's harder. But despite it being harder, it is possible even here to have a long, productive career on your own terms.

That's it. This is a tertiary point in a much longer discussion, but for some reason it's important to you that I be wrong about it in some way. It's important enough that you call what I'm saying "BS," before you've even grasped what I was saying.
Old 12th April 2010
  #153
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post

and steve - MUCHOS kudos on the Josephson E22 {??}.....Got two of them.
+1
And kudos for all the good work you've done over the years.

Having said that, I see no truth in your comments about the UK at all.
I've been a full time pro since 1980, working with both struggling independent artists and bigger names.
I signed on the dole when I first moved to London.
Saying on your dole form you wanted to be a musician resulted in much merriment behind the interview screen. "You and thousands of others" is the quick reply, followed swiftly by "what are you doing to find a real job"?
In effect back then you were given a few weeks to find yourself the job you dreamed of, or they would start sending you out on interviews as a builder's labourer or a restaurant dishwasher.
The whole thing was extremely humiliating actually (designed to be that way) and I got off the dole a few weeks later and never looked back.
Many bands dream of BBC radio sessions.
They don't actually pay that well, once you've factored in rehearsals for the date, and getting your gear to the studio.
There are thousands of bands looking for publicity like that, and two or three sessions available every week? I've done it twice, in 25 years as a muso in London.
Lottery funded arts grants?
My brother is a full time paid consultant who specialises in steering people through the process.
Grants are hard to come by, you have to make written submissions, be interviewed by a panel.
Again, it's extremely competitive. My brother deals with fairly major museums looking for funding.
Any band would really have to have their act together, and likely any band who sought arts council funding to "like tour man" would be laughed out of the room.
Funding is available however for niche genres like jazz.
The UK is an extremely expensive place to live, let alone fund a fledgling career as a rocker.
have you seen the gear prices compared to the US?
I've spent a lot of time in the UK, USA and Australia and I think the uK and US are pretty equal.
The UK is a harsh environment living-wise, but a bit more willing to accept younger bands, and unusual music.
The US is cheaper to live, and there's more opportunities to play out and find an audience.
Old 12th April 2010
  #154
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
FYP.

Man that's all I was saying. There is public support for musicians in many countries, and it is available to independents bands. It's not easier here in the US, it's harder. But despite it being harder, it is possible even here to have a long, productive career on your own terms.

That's it. This is a tertiary point in a much longer discussion, but for some reason it's important to you that I be wrong about it in some way. It's important enough that you call what I'm saying "BS," before you've even grasped what I was saying.
Damn, trying to leave, but I just can't.

First, don't misquote me like that to make your point, I do understand what you said and the big picture you wanna describe

Second, for the last time, I don't WANT you to be wrong. ANd forgive me if I used "BS", it was not aimed at saying you are full of ****, it was aimed at discussing about the reality of the situation in France. I might be wrong, still I'm not entirely convinced.

Tertio, I do think it is possible to make it by yourself, so I'm not even against you on this. That said, I just don't see how it is harder in the US for many reasons, probably different than the ones you encounter in US.

So basically, I don't entirely disagree with you, I am just not convinced it is easier here than in the states.

Now I'm really living since you are, again, rather agresive when there is absolutly no need.

malice
Old 12th April 2010
  #155
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
+1
And kudos for all the good work you've done over the years.
Thank you that's very kind.

Quote:
Having said that, I see no truth in your comments about the UK at all.
Which is weird, since you also wrote this:
Quote:
I signed on the dole when I first moved to London...
something nobody in the US can do ever.

and this:

Quote:
Many bands dream of BBC radio sessions.
They don't actually pay that well, once you've factored in rehearsals for the date, and getting your gear to the studio.
There are thousands of bands looking for publicity like that, and two or three sessions available every week? I've done it twice, in 25 years as a muso in London.
Which is twice more than any band in the US can expect to get a publicly-funded radio session.

Unless you go to the UK, where bands I've been in have done three BBC sessions. I've also been a guest engineer on a BBC session for another UK band, and worked on a festival where Peel did a comprehensive remote recording of almost every band on the bill. That's five more publicly-funded radio sessions in the UK than I've been involved in here in the US, where I've had none even offered to me.

Quote:
Lottery funded arts grants?
My brother is a full time paid consultant who specialises in steering people through the process.
Grants are hard to come by, you have to make written submissions, be interviewed by a panel.
Again, it's extremely competitive. My brother deals with fairly major museums looking for funding...
Funding is available however for niche genres like jazz.
So, lottery funding is available for musicians then. Just like I said. I didn't say it was easy or that it was available just for the asking, but that there was some support. Over here in the US there is nothing.

Quote:
The UK is an extremely expensive place to live, let alone fund a fledgling career as a rocker.
have you seen the gear prices compared to the US?
Have you seen the cost of medicine here? Or a University education? You pay for some things we don't and vice-versa. Staying on the topic of this one minor point, the UK has more public support for musicians than the US.

Quote:
I've spent a lot of time in the UK, USA and Australia and I think the uK and US are pretty equal.
All the time I've spent in the UK I marvel at how much my friends in bands there get away with. Virtually every band I've known in the UK was on the dole at least some of the time. Some had their rent paid. Some got money to buy kitchenware and a couple from Sheffield even got government assistance to buy cat food (this was more than a decade ago, so maybe that doesn't count). Some rehearsed in publicly-funded arts complexes. They all got free eyeglasses. Hell, when I was there on tour and our bass player stepped on mine, I got free eyeglasses. When our drummer's hand got torn open, he got it mended at a hospital for less than the cabfare to get him there.
Quote:
The US is cheaper to live, and there's more opportunities to play out and find an audience.
I totally agree with this. There is no shortage of places to play in the US, and for bands willing to put their asses on the line there's a way to build an audience.

I really shouldn't keep defending this tiny, tertiary point, because it just invites even tinier nits to get picked, but here I go again:

There is little-to-no public institutional support for musicians in the US, but there is in other countries. Despite that, it is possible to have a significant career in music here outside the mainstream showbusiness industry, just as it is elsewhere.
Old 12th April 2010
  #156
Now I think you are nitpicking.

I did say my dole experience was 1980, thirty years ago and only one year after Margaret Thatcher took office and took the UK away from the welfare state and more towards the free market and sweeping cuts in public funding.
The year previously, I'd spent penniless in new York. We actually made enough to eat and pay the rent by busking.
But at 19, I was still able to get my original band gigs at all the legendary venues in town (Max's, CBGB, Trax), something I couldn't manage in my home town of London.

I find the UK to be a harsh environment to be a self employed musician trying to make it in a rock band.
The costs that musicians usually and regularly incur - food, lodging, equipment, petrol, are far higher costs that any US musician faces, often double actually.
No one I've ever met in the mainstream has had arts council funding, only a couple of college friends who went on to perform esoteric jazz.
It's just not a factor for 99% of indie/rock/pop/hip-hop/metal musicians.
Two or three BBC sessions in a life does not a career cement, and do you not have a vast network of local tv stations and college radio in the US?

On your main point, I personally think staying independent is the way forward for creative people, especially with the benefits of the internet and it's worldwide reach.
Old 12th April 2010
  #157
Lives for gear
 
7161's Avatar
 

thats odd cos my oldest kid just did a degree and the govt paid for it all. ok he doesnt live with me so it is based in his mums income, but the fact is we get endless support in the uk compared to the usa

even if your family is higher income you get loans which dont have to be paid back until you broach an earnings threshold and they are interest free arent they?

everyone young person i know in bands here is on the dole or gets some dole even if it is just HB.. unless they are foreigners.

and that includes some older people who were in 'named' bands before lol

then there's the other classic route to living expenses while in a band - the one from which comes the joke:

Q. what do you call a musician with no GF?
a. homeless

Old 12th April 2010
  #158
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I find the UK to be a harsh environment to be a self employed musician trying to make it in a rock band.
No ****.

For having experienced it, I agree without restrictions.

I mean, we had to pay to play in decent venues in London.

In France, the more I think of it and discuss about this with musicians and managers, the more I think making a living out of your music is tied to what genre is your music.

It's a real dilema, even singing in English would suffice to render your career very difficult.

That is typically the downside of a system working with public funding, you need to be part of a niche to get the help, regardless of being under contract or not.

Basically, you have a system extremely influenced by US mainstream production by FM radios, but where you better be original and favor french lyrics to get fundings.

I don't know if this makes it particullary easy for artists ...

I guess being a house DJ is appealing here heh

Damn, I cannot leave this discussion

malice
Old 12th April 2010
  #159
Lives for gear
 
7161's Avatar
 

ah well the appaling gigging situation in london is a whole other matter.
Old 12th April 2010
  #160
Lives for gear
 
swafford's Avatar
 

I'd like to point a few things out:
1. Big Black rocked (saw y'all at the Jockey Club in Newport, Ky a couple of times) and Steve has it right about independent artists. He has some key insights that anyone should be open to understanding and dismissing him is uncalled for

2. I've done a few sessions with Bob O. (and Ed!) and Bob mixed and mastered my last record. He is easily the most generous and most knowledgeable person I have ever met in an otherwise stinking business. He truly TRULY loves the process and the experience of making music. He has some key insights that anyone should be open to understanding and dismissing him is uncalled for.

3. There are many independent bands out there RIGHT NOW who are not financed by daddy (NTTAWWT), who didn't have an existing fan base in their hometowns, and are squeaking out a living anyway (mostly by having second jobs). A couple of Cincinnati examples would be The Heartless Bastards, 500 Miles to Memphis and Wussy.

4. There are more then one ways to approach the same problem, which is why the Internet does not have the answers you are seeking.
Old 12th April 2010
  #161
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
FYP.

Man that's all I was saying. There is public support for musicians in many countries, and it is available to independents bands. It's not easier here in the US, it's harder. But despite it being harder, it is possible even here to have a long, productive career on your own terms.

.... with the corollary that, despite being perhaps harder, you CAN have a self funded career in the USA. You can't do this in Europe at all... not in a meaningful level. Bands like Fu Manchu just couldn't happen over here!!

As for UK - no lottery funding for bands and no dole for none job seekers. In other words - if you turn down a job offered to you via jobseekers (whether you want it or not) they remove your benefit. UB40 money ended a loooong time ago.
Old 12th April 2010
  #162
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
ah well the appaling gigging situation in london is a whole other matter.
totally. Who gets' paid anymore !?
Old 12th April 2010
  #163
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
thats odd cos my oldest kid just did a degree and the govt paid for it all. ok he doesnt live with me so it is based in his mums income, but the fact is we get endless support in the uk compared to the usa
There are no LEA grants here...... c'mon - you KNOW that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
even if your family is higher income you get loans which dont have to be paid back until you broach an earnings threshold and they are interest free arent they?
Not interest free no. but low interest. The threshold is very low.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post

everyone young person i know in bands here is on the dole or gets some dole even if it is just HB.. unless they are foreigners.
It's not dole - it's job seekers allowance. If you turn down a job offered to you they take your allowance away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post

and that includes some older people who were in 'named' bands before lol

then there's the other classic route to living expenses while in a band - the one from which comes the joke:

Q. what do you call a musician with no GF?
a. homeless

heh
Old 12th April 2010
  #164
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
.... with the corollary that, despite being perhaps harder, you CAN have a self funded career in the USA. You can't do this in Europe at all... not in a meaningful level. Bands like Fu Manchu just couldn't happen over here!!
Tell it to the Ex. They've been doing it for 30 years and still going strong.
Old 12th April 2010
  #165
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
Tell it to the Ex. They've been doing it for 30 years and still going strong.
That's proving MY point Steve. An established band isn't the same thing!! A fledgling band cannot do it! That's the point!.....
Old 12th April 2010
  #166
What we have here is people who have spent a career living and working in the UK telling it like it is, and people who haven't telling us we're wrong.
Old 13th April 2010
  #167
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
What we have here is people who have spent a career living and working in the UK telling it like it is, and people who haven't telling us we're wrong.
sadly, that appears to be the trajectory of pretty much every thread in the "music business" forums... those who have done/are doing it, telling it like it is - and those who haven't/aren't shouting them down... in pretty much every thread no matter the variation...
Old 13th April 2010
  #168
Lives for gear
 
carlheinz's Avatar
 

"Tell it to the Ex. They've been doing it for 30 years and still going strong."

True.

It's kinda strange how long they've been at it.The little money they make pretty much goes into the gas tank and keeps the rehersal room locked out.

They wont pay for a roll of tape anymore.heh
Old 13th April 2010
  #169
Lives for gear
 
petermichael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicAndFilmGeek View Post
sadly, that appears to be the trajectory of pretty much every thread in the "music business" forums... those who have done/are doing it, telling it like it is - and those who haven't/aren't shouting them down... in pretty much every thread no matter the variation...
i certainly don't represent all the successful independent artists and producers who are busy recording. they don't have time to chit chat or do market research and garner forum opinions. i am only 6 months into my end of things, but as i am having far less free time with my growth than the week before, i would suggest, when i am able to give you straight facts on personal successes, i CERTAINLY won't have the extra time to come in here and share.

i think it's about optimism and pessimism in these forums. so call me the new green idiot, but it would only be a fool, to come in to this forum and share possible ideas and new successes for /with a new model, with a bunch of folks who are running out of work and have a surplus of time on their hands. even forest gump wouldn't think that was very smot.
Old 13th April 2010
  #170
Quote:
Originally Posted by petermichael View Post
i certainly don't represent all the successful independent artists and producers who are busy recording. they don't have time to chit chat or do market research and garner forum opinions. i am only 6 months into my end of things, but as i am having far less free time with my growth than the week before, i would suggest, when i am able to give you straight facts on personal successes, i CERTAINLY won't have the extra time to come in here and share.

i think it's about optimism and pessimism in these forums. so call me the new green idiot, but it would only be a fool, to come in to this forum and share possible ideas and new successes for /with a new model, with a bunch of folks who are running out of work and have a surplus of time on their hands. even forest gump wouldn't think that was very smot.
well - I think you and I see "optimism" and "pessimism" differently.

I am optimistic that piracy is going to managed to some meaningful degree, which in turn will create MANY new opportunities to those new to the business and those who have been around a while.

I am pessimistic that without the management of piracy there's not much in opportunities for all but the absolute high end artists, and those funded well enough through other means to slog it out touring.

Indie, major or unsigned - the current dynamics of the market effect everyone's ability to make a sustainable living for a prolonged period of time. The greatest crime of piracy has been essentially eliminating or dramatically reducing the pool of middle class musicians - and also probably a lot of engineers and producers as witnessed by the major studio closings in the bigger markets.

These are musicians who regardless of career path and choices were able sustain a middle class existence in years past. I knew many indie artists for example that settled in the Tampa FL area. Housing was cheap, the lifestyle was good and they could work as a musician/band with relatively low overhead. Local studios popped up, and between album/publishing royalties, a smattering of licenses and some touring - people had a decent professional life without being massively successful, or completely broke ass poor.

I am all for optimism and new models. I am also a realist, and a pragmatist. Just show me it working, that's all I ask.

No doubt some young, smart, music fanatic will have a genius idea that is a game changer. Then, the rest of us will follow... I'm just still looking for that one good real idea that works...
Old 13th April 2010
  #171
Lives for gear
 
7161's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
There are no LEA grants here...... c'mon - you KNOW that.
he got a grant. so nitpicking about what type of grant is irrelevent. lower income kids get grants of some type

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Not interest free no. but low interest. The threshold is very low.
agreed but better than the usa system i think. I personaly think withdrawing grants was a huge cock-up for the uk - the problem is imo that the govt expects definable results from education funding, but the real secret of the great free college movement of the 50's & 60's especialy, was the people who came out of it to go on to form international brands which have brought massive revenues to the uk.

i think the uk'd be better off if alot of education funding was diverted into good old fashioned apprenticeships. I also think the bbc being taxpayer funded should be compulsarily obliged to re-implement it's apprentice system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
It's not dole - it's job seekers allowance. If you turn down a job offered to you they take your allowance away.
well again, nitpicking?, brits just call all benefits 'dole'.
but most of the muso's i know are on it. some of the younger muso's i know either live with mum/dad still, dont sign & do a bit of p/t, but thats cos they pay no rent, or they are at college and get family support from well off family. the more working-class (for want of a better expression) kids i know just dont do rock/guitars cos they are all into grime & hiphop etc etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
heh
yeah it's quite funny that one ha ha ha
Old 13th April 2010
  #172
Lives for gear
 
7161's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
totally. Who gets' paid anymore !?
which is why i cant quite make my mind up about this clutch of celebrity music people - f.sharkey etc - and all the stuff 5 years ago or so about their special forum to saving live music

what happened to that? feck all i'd say. I registered for updates and got but one which as far as i remember was the minutes of the first meeting, some govt minister was in attendance as far as i rememebr - anyways, it read like a council meeting minutes about proposals for a new cycle lane - never anything since.

At the end of the day there's too many bands and too many wannabe promoters, certainly in london anyways, but at the end of the day it all comes down to one simple fact - guitar music is not the music of the street anymore.

there isnt one single venue in london where people go regardless of what bands are on. it's just a handful of so-called promoters sub-letting pub venues to bands basicaly. sad.

in fact the only promoter i can think of that has been successful was the guys doing those 'underage gigs' on saturday afternoons - their gigs are/were ****ing rammed!!! (dunno if they still do that bash)


and that's another MASSIVE issue for the biz to sort out - kids cant get into most gigs!!! - thats just the stupidest thing ever! I tried for years to take my kids to gigs, they could never get in.

stupid!
Old 13th April 2010
  #173
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7161 View Post
he got a grant. so nitpicking about what type of grant is irrelevent. lower income kids get grants of some type

well again, nitpicking?, brits just call all benefits 'dole'.
but most of the muso's i know are on it. some of the younger muso's i know either live with mum/dad still, dont sign & do a bit of p/t, but thats cos they pay no rent, or they are at college and get family support from well off family. the more working-class (for want of a better expression) kids i know just dont do rock/guitars cos they are all into grime & hiphop etc etc
a
The difference in the old LEA grants is that everyone was eligible. Now it's only a support for the extremely deprived - which somehow the gov seems to set a threshold WELL below what most people call "being poor".... little bit like tax credit.

The "job seekers" allowance is a con used to hide true unemployment figures. They offer ****e jobs and you HAVE to take them. Aske your young friends what happens to their money if they turn down a job !!

ouch
Old 13th April 2010
  #174
Lives for gear
 
7161's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicAndFilmGeek View Post
well - I think you and I see "optimism" and "pessimism" differently.

I am optimistic that piracy is going to managed to some meaningful degree, which in turn will create MANY new opportunities to those new to the business and those who have been around a while.

I am pessimistic that without the management of piracy there's not much in opportunities for all but the absolute high end artists, and those funded well enough through other means to slog it out touring.

Indie, major or unsigned - the current dynamics of the market effect everyone's ability to make a sustainable living for a prolonged period of time. The greatest crime of piracy has been essentially eliminating or dramatically reducing the pool of middle class musicians.

These are musicians who regardless of career path and choices were able sustain a middle class existence in years past. I knew many indie artists for example that settled in the Tampa FL area. Housing was cheap, the lifestyle was good and they could work as a musician/band with relatively low overhead. Local studios popped up, and between album/publishing royalties, a smattering of licenses and some touring - people had a decent professional life without being massively successful, or completely broke ass poor.

I am all for optimism and new models. I am also a realist, and a pragmatist. Just show me it working, that's all I ask.

No doubt some young, smart, music fanatic will have a genius idea that is a game changer. Then, the rest of us will follow... I'm just still looking for that one good real idea that works...


but if you stand back a bit and put on a different hat, can you see what's happenening really?

the management tier, just like in other industries have just jacked their income year in year out - commensurately things they buy, especialy as symbols of status have risen in pace with that rise in their incomes/share (property etc). Gradualy this tier of the non-creatives has taken a bigger an bigger portion of the pot year in year out, and each time they do, the costs are cut from the other end of the spectrum - the lower paid end gets less and less or they get sacked/dropped


we see this in many industries - tv for example - excs and pen pushers and deal makers get more and more, ludicrously high wages or incomes while tv has gradualy sacked all the tallent - writers, set designers/makers, actors, directors, lighting etc etc and replaced it with cheap to make bought-in content - you know the stuff

Dog Borstal
Police chases on camera
Spoilt brat kids throw a tantrum
Fat bastards eat stuff
Freaks to gorp at and we pretend it is educational
plastic surgery gone to far
worlds most dangerous kitchen appliances
100 greatest whatever (movies/comedians/irritating-people/songs etc)
The most hardest criminals

blah blah blah

now i didnt see any musicians weeping and calling for action when this massive tier of talent was booted out of the tv industry in the uk - did you complain? or when the bbbc sacked 6000 technicians (it was 6000 wasnt it?)

BUt - you look at the feckin bbc management saleries!!!


i think the sad but simple reality is, that we are seeing across the board, whether in govt, local govt, healthcare, education, tv, film, music etc etc - we are seeing this happen, the 'management' & shareholder tier getting more and more, so less and less is available for the people doing the actual work. and while some of it might not look like it relates it can...

powerful brewery chains hammering landlords for more profit = less band venues that can pay (for example) or the actual property which was a venue being sold to give more money to the owner - in London we've seen the astoria go recently, the marquee wwent years ago and now is a utterly **** 'massive drinking hall' pub - The electric ballroom is next on the list when they redevelop camden tube - the canearvon in camden went already (was a great venue). etc etc

thats the reality as far as i'm concerned. it's all just a symptom of the global greed by the rich minority we're seeing. I mean it mathmaticaly has to be that way. if the top tiny % take more and more then there's less and less for anything else.


it's just part of the general wrecking of the skilled worker class in western economies imo

THAT is why i favour the tax p2p with distribution of funds direct to copyright holders cos we need some re-balance!

we DON'T (imo) need an even further concentrating of the wealth into the hands of just a few massive corporate download retailers (amazon/itunes) & just a handful of massive labels & film corps who will suck all that money up into shareholder dividends & profits that'll languish in banks or be converted to other speculative investments, it wont come back into the system at the 'talent-tier' end of the spectrum thats for sure!

the way it's heading is very dangerous in just purely socio-economic terms imo - we're using downloading legislation to just kill off anything small and push all the money even more towards that tiny group of uber-wealthy corporations and their shareholders and upper-management tier.


This wealth consolidation is happening with everything entertainment - radio stations, tv channels, labels, film distribution, publishing, internet, even bloody ticket sales!, etc etc

what we need above all else (imo) to stop the rot that's gonna kill all western states' ability to compete in the near future is some wealth distribution policy.

my 2 pence anyways.
Old 13th April 2010
  #175
Lives for gear
 
petermichael's Avatar
 

@7161

great post, but I am very concerned you see this tax as an answer?

and before i say why, lets just be clear. the govt is worse than any greedy corporate enterprise. they make the rules, they enforce the public's purchase into whatever they might be selling at the time. and not to forget, if they lose money, there is no checks and balances to cause them to have to go out of business. they can just print more currency, and if they are "cool" and "articulate speakers" the masses become sheep and lay right down for it.

the govt is the worst, most insidious entity there is IMO.

that said, you would be remiss to believe that any "tax" will efficiently get from user to artist, better than a free market method that artists can raise the BS flag and say, "no you are not doing it for me, i'm going to use someone else."

it may seem like a great idea, but looking at history, it can not possibly benefit the common member without first GREATLY benefiting those "running" the thing. look at labor unions, at least in the states. take the dues and the commitments out of it, and who benefits from unions? the management. isn't that ironic?

i really can't think of one, yes one example of government getting it particularly right, except to say, "we are going to stay out of that." and how often does that happen? sorry, i don't trust em. not a one. perhaps when they aren't openly taking millions from various lobbies. then we can have a real choice of the people, and not alot of manchurian types.
Old 14th April 2010
  #176
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by petermichael View Post
@7161

great post, but I am very concerned you see this tax as an answer?

and before i say why, lets just be clear. the govt is worse than any greedy corporate enterprise. they make the rules, they enforce the public's purchase into whatever they might be selling at the time. and not to forget, if they lose money, there is no checks and balances to cause them to have to go out of business. they can just print more currency, and if they are "cool" and "articulate speakers" the masses become sheep and lay right down for it.

the govt is the worst, most insidious entity there is IMO.
ooohhh couldn't disagree with that more if I tried!!!
Old 14th April 2010
  #177
Lives for gear
 
petermichael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
ooohhh couldn't disagree with that more if I tried!!!
and what, pray tell has the government done for you, sir, in any economically beneficial way?

make no mistake, as an agent of the military, i do appreciate all the basic essentials that a government must provide. police, fire, infrastructure, national defense, etc.

you must have some government, obviously, but the idea that government has the "answer" to any of life's problems? i would contest that any issue the government is currently claiming the answer for, such as the pear shaped economic condition at present- or better yet, the lack of enforcement and tardiness in it's regulatory system in the realm of anything digital = it is the government that is knee deep in responsibility.

and i do not want to get into politics in this forum outside of what may relate to the topic of music.
Old 14th April 2010
  #178
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
unfortunately he's talking rubbish. Student grants ended here ten years ago. You cannot cla the dole if you are not seeking work and the lottery fund will not fund bands. Orchestras yes. But not bands. University circuit is buy on. Steves wrong on that by a long way and at least ten tears out of date.

And Steve, weigh yours? Really?
There are still plenty of ways that the public / charitable sectors "help" bands and artists out here in the UK: tons of further and higher education courses, various grants (including touring and release support) from Arts Councils, loads of community recording/rehearsal facilities, Prince's Youth Trust etc.. and yes, the dole is still viable for some musicians, who get an income + rent paid while they "search" for work. Up till last year the UK govt even offered a special unemployment option for musicians.

In some ways, this debate is a bit pot and kettle. The reality is that bands, and artists are a profit bandwagon from formation to split. On the back of living out their ambitions/dreams, they can be sold almost anything - from the studio where they cut their first demo, or the gear to do it at home, to the promoter who persuades them to sell tickets to all their family and friends, a record deal which everybody will profit from except them, to the latest and greatest instruments and stage gear which manufacturer, distributor, retailer will all profit from... its just a never ending list, and the new DIY side of the industry is just another aspect of the same machine.

According to Music USA 2007, the global market for music related kit was some $17 billion. The UK's share of that was around $850 million. By any estimate (e.g. IFPI 2009, 1.2 million rock acts on myspace) there are just innumerable bands, artists, songwriters, film/game composers, DJ's, remixers, producers all chasing the same break, spending tons of cash trying, and all with a miniscule chance of success, because failure is absolutely, uncontestably, the norm in this industry, and the ones who profit are those who can convince that what they have to offer is what you really, really, really need.

Cheers
Chris
Old 14th April 2010
  #179
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Wow....just WOW.


Don't know how many times I have to say this:

Lottery (and hence arts council) do not fund bands. You better have some culturally significant aspect to you to get ANY arts council funding .
Again, DOLE ended in the 90's. Job seekers allowance, if you dont find your own, GETS YOU A JOB - even a really crappy one. If you turn it down - you lose your money..

There IS arts funding in the UK - not for bands. Scotlnad is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY different to Wales and England for arts. You aso have a LOT less venues to play.

The "new deal for musicians" was the biggest unemployment swiping con the UK has seen for some time. Now - I'm, on the whole, generally a Labour voter (although not as committed as I used to be !!) - but the "new deal" was a fecking disgrace. It was a way, in the short term, to remove a whole sector from job seekers allowance and hence not be reported as unemployed. Trouble is that a few years later we now just have thousands of unemployed musicians.... a contributor to the problem - nto a solver.
Old 14th April 2010
  #180
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by petermichael View Post
and what, pray tell has the government done for you, sir, in any economically beneficial way?

make no mistake, as an agent of the military, i do appreciate all the basic essentials that a government must provide. police, fire, infrastructure, national defense, etc.

you must have some government, obviously, but the idea that government has the "answer" to any of life's problems? i would contest that any issue the government is currently claiming the answer for, such as the pear shaped economic condition at present- or better yet, the lack of enforcement and tardiness in it's regulatory system in the realm of anything digital = it is the government that is knee deep in responsibility.

and i do not want to get into politics in this forum outside of what may relate to the topic of music.
Been doing this professional 22 years. A number of years before that in the "trying to get it going" stakes.

Tax rates, business assist and many other gov activities have contributed to my company success - and it's been a lot better under the last 13 years than the previous bunch. You're right - let's keep the political debate out of this - but Rupert Murdoch is the biggest problem in this country..... and the guys a Tory. AThe banks and corporations really run any western country - blame the Tories for getting us into THAT position.
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
VegasMusicMan / Downloads, the future - Q+A forum with expert guests from CD Baby, Tunecore and Nimbit
16
bschigel / Geekslutz forum
7

Forum Jump
Forum Jump