The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Artists: Labels need YOU --- NOT the other way around Modular Synthesizers
Old 9th April 2010
  #121
Gear Maniac
 
Hashbrown's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
Hashbrown:

Love your Avatar!
~Best of luck to you thumbsup
Thanks Man!
Old 9th April 2010
  #122
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
The comments about musicians having it tougher in other countries are pretty off-mark as well. .
yeah - 120 million sales and I don't know ****....... heh


There is no arts support in the UK, France, Spain or most of the rest of Europe for "bands" of any sort. It is private enterprise only - unless you meant something else.
Old 9th April 2010
  #123
Here for the gear
 
Goes211's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
There is no arts support in the UK, France, Spain or most of the rest of Europe for "bands" of any sort. It is private enterprise only - unless you meant something else.
Confirmed.
thumbsup
Old 9th April 2010
  #124
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
yeah - 120 million sales and I don't know ****....... heh


There is no arts support in the UK, France, Spain or most of the rest of Europe for "bands" of any sort. It is private enterprise only - unless you meant something else.
dang! I was just about to move to Spain and apply for a Rock and Roll grant!
Old 9th April 2010
  #125
Gear Nut
 

I see several points here that bear making...


First off, I see multiple attempts to label Mr. Olhsson as "old" and thus to broadly smear his remarks as being somehow lacking relevance. I think this does tremendous disservice to the discussion.

This in the context of artist contracts, and whether there is a "standard" or "typical" deal. While you'd have to be an idiot to not recognize that probably 1/2 of any contract has boilerplate language in it, you'd also have to be highly disingenuous to cite this as meaning that labels have "one deal" that they offer.

As Mr. Albini can certainly personally attest, SO MUCH about this industry is just about having the audacity to accidentally stand in the wrong place at the right time. That's fully half of the success equation.

The other half of the success equation is INVESTMENT. Having some resources applied to your cause. Whence those elusive investment dollars come from, is almost secondary to the argument. Labels provide INVESTMENT. Absent that, the money and resources have to come from somewhere, because "If You Build It, They Will Come" is nothing but a lovely, endearing fantasy.

To the original poster, I would admonish that Labels have absolutely not the slightest need for you. None. Period. What they need, is your SONGS.

Any monkey with enough typewriter time under their belt can choke a self-indulgent squawk from a mostly-tuned guitar. Any brace of angry-young-men can stand on stage and make an "unvarnished" anti-fashion statement while striking diffident indie poses, and maybe even all get to the last note at approximately the same time...but the TALENT that it takes to WRITE a compelling capture of human experience that resonates as universal truth...(belting a blistering bullet line drive into the outfield, so to speak)...is rare. And THAT is what the labels "need".

dwoz
Old 9th April 2010
  #126
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zowd View Post
...To the original poster, I would admonish that Labels have absolutely not the slightest need for you. None. Period. What they need, is your SONGS...
I'd say its more they want a recording of you that they can sell to your fans. What you have to sell is access to your fans. Your fans obviously want your songs. If you don't already have a fan-base that can be built upon with investment, you have very little to sell to a label.

The important point is that the artist is the brand and not the label as hard as many have tried. For this reason the artist always occupies the catbird seat unless some rip-off artist talks them into not believing it.
Old 9th April 2010
  #127
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I'd say its more they want a recording of you that they can sell to your fans. What you have to sell is access to your fans. Your fans obviously want your songs. If you don't already have a fan-base that can be built upon with investment, you have very little to sell to a label.

The important point is that the artist is the brand and not the label as hard as many have tried. For this reason the artist always occupies the catbird seat unless some rip-off artist talks them into not believing it.
Yes, I'll agree with this.

One thing YOU said once, Bob, that just about changed my life, was when you "asked" the simple question..."what is the product?"

The amazing, simple, but amazing answer to that for RADIO, was "the product is LISTENERS".

that's brilliant.

Radio SELLS listeners to advertisers. The LISTENERS are the "product". I was amazed by this simple, hidden, truth.

By extension, the artist sells FANS to the label. THE ARTIST SELLS FANS TO THE LABEL.

wow.

What are you "selling" and what are you getting "in return"?

brilliant thinking, from a legend in the industry, Bob Olhsson.


dwoz
Old 9th April 2010
  #128
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

It actually came from a woman that worked at an advertising agency who spoke to my 12 grade radio drama class. As I've tripped through the music business over the years, I've never found any exceptions to this most basic business model of what it is that we sell.
Old 9th April 2010
  #129
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
dang! I was just about to move to Spain and apply for a Rock and Roll grant!
hahah!! Joint applic?
Old 9th April 2010
  #130
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zowd View Post
Yes, I'll agree with this.

One thing YOU said once, Bob, that just about changed my life, was when you "asked" the simple question..."what is the product?"

The amazing, simple, but amazing answer to that for RADIO, was "the product is LISTENERS".

that's brilliant.

Radio SELLS listeners to advertisers. The LISTENERS are the "product". I was amazed by this simple, hidden, truth.

By extension, the artist sells FANS to the label. THE ARTIST SELLS FANS TO THE LABEL.

wow.

What are you "selling" and what are you getting "in return"?

brilliant thinking, from a legend in the industry, Bob Olhsson.


dwoz
...and in any way you look at it - that's how it is!!
Old 10th April 2010
  #131
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashbrown View Post
Hmm, that's a good idea, i'll look around.

I start test tracking tomorrow (to see if the room is right for drums)


On the Topic...
A friend of mine is a writer (not pro, but trying), he has a blog going with a healthy following. He said he has the figures to go to an ad agency to get extra cash, but he would rather work on the population of the site, and build a brand, and get the ad guys to come to him.
That seemed like a cool way of doing it.
But what if they don't come?
I like to believe that if the talent is there, is readily available, then they will come. I like to believe that the universe helps those who help themselves.
But i'm wary of the current market situation of too many fish in the sea, it's easy to get lost out there.

Do you have to be truly genius or truly business savvy to get ahead these days? Not that i can talk about the old days, i'm still young.
Yes the Universe works in a reciprocal fashion...

I don't see many people getting ahead, I see most people struggling...This World really seems to portray a false image of itself. The more you make the more they take blah blah blah. It is extremely hard to make it out of whatever bracket you were born into. It happens sure, but it is damn hard.

All you can do is give it your best shot, worry not for the outcome. Money? We all need it still but you can't take it with you, shed yourself of the desire for it and things start to turn around. As far as I can tell everything is over-saturated, every market or industry has too many fish in the sea. There is clearly an over population of people scrapping it out for not enough gigs. Pick your poison really.

Things are changing rapidly and drastically on a global level. We are in the midst of an amazing time, do what you LOVE to do and simply enjoy the ride!!
Old 10th April 2010
  #132
Gear Maniac
 
scud133's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zowd View Post
Yes, I'll agree with this.

One thing YOU said once, Bob, that just about changed my life, was when you "asked" the simple question..."what is the product?"

The amazing, simple, but amazing answer to that for RADIO, was "the product is LISTENERS".

that's brilliant.

Radio SELLS listeners to advertisers. The LISTENERS are the "product". I was amazed by this simple, hidden, truth.

By extension, the artist sells FANS to the label. THE ARTIST SELLS FANS TO THE LABEL.

wow.

What are you "selling" and what are you getting "in return"?

brilliant thinking, from a legend in the industry, Bob Olhsson.


dwoz
great post
Old 10th April 2010
  #133
Lives for gear
 
ianbryn11's Avatar
 

this thread has been an interesting read... Particularly becasue i just started a "label" to release my music on...

I agree that it can be a challenge to do everything..., and in many ways, i do not like doing promotion for myself... And would much prefer that someone else who knew how to properly promote a band where doing that so i could focus on the music... But, i dont.... so i keep it simple and offer the download for sale... no band bio, no pictures.. Just music... and believe me, im not selling millions...

Howvever, the nice thing about digital distribution is the low overhead... so, i can afford to hang in there and continue to release albums for about 20 bucks a month, and a yearly fee of keeping my website running..

Is any of it ideal? hell no... but its what ive got so far..

and i get to keep all of my very little bit of profits... and full ownership of my songs, which is kind of important to me...
Old 10th April 2010
  #134
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
yeah - 120 million sales and I don't know ****....... heh
Count yours, I'll weigh mine.
Quote:
There is no arts support in the UK, France, Spain or most of the rest of Europe for "bands" of any sort. It is private enterprise only - unless you meant something else.
The UK has the BBC, which funds sessions like the incredible 35 years worth that John Peel did, granting bands airplay, royalties and recognition at no cost. There are also lottery grants for music projects, local arts councils and publicly-funded universities that sponsor gigs. And significantly, the UK has student grants, the dole and rent assistance, which bands treat as stipends that allow them to get started. It's not for nothing that UB40 were named UB40. It's financially waaay easier to subsist in a band in the UK than the US.

In addition to the institutional stuff the UK has, France has a long history of supporting the arts publicly. I don't know if this system is still in place, but as late as the early 2000s bands that played a minimum number of gigs in a year (I believe it was 58 gigs) were entitled to support payment from the French government, as were their roadies, sound and lighting crew. I knew of several bands who made use of this subsidy as almost half their annual income. Also, it meant that every French band would have a road crew and sound man if only for that reason.

France also has an indirect subsidy for French music by requiring a significant fraction of all broadcast music to be French.

Canada does something similar with its Canadian Content rules for the CBC, but also has direct grants available for touring, recording and making promotional videos. It's a way to support all parts of the music industry by ensuring that bands can afford to stay together long enough to become profitable on their own.

The Netherlands is in a league of its own, with publicly-supported festivals, venues, individual arts grants and an exceptional effort made to foster a supportive environment for music all around.

So yeah, there's a bunch of stuff available outside the US that we can't take advantage of here.
Old 10th April 2010
  #135
Lives for gear
 
tyler477's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post

So yeah, there's a bunch of stuff available outside the US that we can't take advantage of here.
Wow, I had no idea of the advantages overseas and in Canada, really interesting.

One of the things I learned in music school was grant writing , I suppose if you can word things right then any kind band could have some quality worthy of the many US grants... Although I haven't tried for one before....
Old 10th April 2010
  #136
Lives for gear
 
GearBit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
dang! I was just about to move to Spain and apply for a Rock and Roll grant!
Why not move to australia, start a band, get an overseas touring grant and do your tour of the states on the aussie governments dime!

Grants & Funding - Australian Music Office
Old 10th April 2010
  #137
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GearBit View Post
Why not move to australia, start a band, get an overseas touring grant and do your tour of the states on the aussie governments dime!

Grants & Funding - Australian Music Office
that's amazing! I can't imagine that happening here. We spent all of our money bailing out Goldman Sachs, there's none left over to subsidize my overseas tour!
Old 10th April 2010
  #138
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler477 View Post
Wow, I had no idea of the advantages overseas and in Canada, really interesting.

One of the things I learned in music school was grant writing , I suppose if you can word things right then any kind band could have some quality worthy of the many US grants... Although I haven't tried for one before....
unfortunately he's talking rubbish. Student grants ended here ten years ago. You cannot cla the dole if you are not seeking work and the lottery fund will not fund bands. Orchestras yes. But not bands. University circuit is buy on. Steves wrong on that by a long way and at least ten tears out of date.

And Steve, weigh yours? Really?
Old 11th April 2010
  #139
Gear Maniac
 

Hey sorry I was wrong about student grants. I don't live there, so my information is out of date. We've never had anything like that here though.
Old 11th April 2010
  #140
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
Hey sorry I was wrong about student grants. I don't live there, so my information is out of date. We've never had anything like that here though.
no I know you haven't. And in those terms, back in the old days you could do a lot more over here than over your way. Not any more though - I'd also say that culturally you guys are far more supportive of bands than over here. People just aint interested!! mores the pity - cuz when you look at things like the "stoner" scene over here.... it's amazing. ...... sorry I was a little brusque.


and steve - MUCHOS kudos on the Josephson E22 {??}.....Got two of them.
Old 11th April 2010
  #141
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
France also has an indirect subsidy for French music by requiring a significant fraction of all broadcast music to be French.
At least I can cut the BS first hand right now.

While it is true that the gvt imposed quotas to the broadcasting companies (TV and Radio, and it was supposed to protect the film making industry as a prime goal), it went down to the toilet because the networks cleverly put old french tv shows and the music production video they didn't wanna be dealing with between 3 and 5 in the morning when everyone's asleep. bang: quotas respected, they could broadcast what they want the rest of the day.

As for direct support to bands, I don't think that reflects reality. There is funding of big events from the regions, like festivals, or funding for special exchange event between french speaking countries like Canada, but I never heard of band having their roadies paid on regular tours by the gvt.

That is for France at least

malice
Old 11th April 2010
  #142
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by malice View Post
At least I can cut the BS first hand right now.
A couple of years ago, Dionysos, a French band, told me about the band and crew support payments, and it seemed too good to be true, so I asked some associates at Black Box, the magnificent studio near Angers. They said they had seen an increase in bookings from bands spending this kind of support money. Davide "Doudou" Christophe, of concert promotion company Radical (also one time manager of Les Thugs), also confirmed it, and the band Dolly also mentioned it in conversation. If all these French people were lying to me, then I apologize.
Old 11th April 2010
  #143
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
A couple of years ago, Dionysos, a French band, told me about the band and crew support payments, and it seemed too good to be true, so I asked some associates at Black Box, the magnificent studio near Angers. They said they had seen an increase in bookings from bands spending this kind of support money. Davide "Doudou" Christophe, of concert promotion company Radical (also one time manager of Les Thugs), also confirmed it, and the band Dolly also mentioned it in conversation. If all these French people were lying to me, then I apologize.
I know Dyonisos, I recorded them. I'll check on this, but I can assure you this doesn't struck me as being very common. But OTOH, I'm not a tour manager nor a personal manager, but I surely verify first hand if it is the new trend.

Don't get me wrong, they are fields were the gvt is VERY supportive in France for art. A lot of venue would not survive without fundings from city halls and region (regions would be the closest autority to States in US)

I'm a bit surprised that you tell me that some bands, and very successful ones like Dyonisos are suported directly.

malice
Old 11th April 2010
  #144
Lives for gear
 
GearBit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
that's amazing! I can't imagine that happening here.
Well you better act quick. I am pretty sure that these programs were implemented in the late 90s under the idea of seeding an export industry (music). I think if they crunch the numbers today they may very well find that it's just not adding up the way it used to.

Quote:
We spent all of our money bailing out Goldman Sachs, there's none left over to subsidize my overseas tour!
As long as that money isn't going to those sick poor people it's all good right?heh <--(asian stereotype means sarcasm here)
Old 11th April 2010
  #145
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

I partialy stand corrected (always glad to do it btw)

It seems that indeed, Dyonisos, and some other bands, got money from associations depending on the gvt.

The thing is that generally you get this easier for financing your first album than touring, apparently.

I do understand you did their 2nd album, if I recall well, so that makes sense.

Still, the person I had over the phone and know about this says it's not as easy as you might think and it doesn't reflects a general trend to obtain gvt money.

He'll get back to me with figures next week.

He do agree with my other statement about quotas though he says the law is going to be more difficult to avoid within the coming years.

I'll try to keep you informed as soon as I get informations about this interesting subject

malice
Old 12th April 2010
  #146
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by malice View Post
I'll try to keep you informed as soon as I get informations about this interesting subject
Please keep right on top of the exciting internet sport of trying to prove me wrong about something. I believe it's being added to the London 2012 Olympic Games.
Old 12th April 2010
  #147
Lives for gear
 
entropy's Avatar
Advantage Mr Albini

I was working in UK through the 90's into early 00's and there was a real explosion of French Hip Hop taking advantage of better radio play through the gvt homegrown music quota.

And if I'm not mistaken they also did that in New Zealand through the 90's (I don't believe it's in place anymore) which had a definite effect on the quality and quantity of bands good enough to export themselves outside NZ and into other countries.
Old 12th April 2010
  #148
Gear Maniac
 
scud133's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
Please keep right on top of the exciting internet sport of trying to prove me wrong about something. I believe it's being added to the London 2012 Olympic Games.
them's fightin' words
Old 12th April 2010
  #149
Lives for gear
 
malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Albini View Post
Please keep right on top of the exciting internet sport of trying to prove me wrong about something. I believe it's being added to the London 2012 Olympic Games.
Don't give yourself more importance that you already do, my intend is not to prove you wrong. Either you are either you are not.

What is important here is the proportion of artists suported by the gvt.If it reveals to be marginal, I don't see that as a point.

malice
Old 12th April 2010
  #150
Gear Maniac
 

The point everybody is nit-picking is a minor one, but seems pretty well settled: There has been and remains governmental support of some kind for independent musicians outside the US.

Canada: check
UK: check (except that student grants no longer apply)
France: check (except that something I don't really know what)
Netherlands: check
Australia: check

Whatever, it's a minor point. Chase down every syllable until you find something that doesn't satisfy you, I don't care. The only things I'm trying to convey in any of this are:

1) Major label deals, while not identical, have some standardized provisions that make them not generally good deals in comparison to either self-sufficiency or quality independent deals.

2) Many bands have long, productive careers in the independent/self-sufficient model. The mainstream showbusiness/major label route is not the only (or even the most likely) path toward a sustainable career.

3) With the impending collapse of the remains of the old school showbusiness industry, the more (and the sooner) a band is self-sufficient, the better.

4) These things are true and independent working methods are valid the world over. This is the part y'all are parsing most recently.

I can say this stuff with confidence because although I have had considerable exposure to the mainstream music business, I have spent basically my entire professional and musical life up to my armpits in the independent scene. I make records for these people literally every day, and it depresses me to see uninformed denigration of that way of doing things. It has served thousands of bands very well, and lends itself to efficient working methods that are desirable in their own right. I have been watching it unfold and become more obvious daily for the last 30 years.

Go ahead and tell me that I'm wrong because of something that happened while Ike was president or you don't think the dole counts as support or you blame anybody who signs a bad deal or you don't like the snare sound on In Utero or whatever. I don't really care. I joined this conversation because you guys were discussing something I wrote and it seemed like I could add some elaboration that would cut through some of the hand-waving. It seems there's a lot more interest in finding reasons to disregard the content and intent of the piece than in trying grasp it.

Hooters guy keeps saying I'm doing some self-promotion or "hype," but for the life of me I can't figure that out. It seems he sees some kind of self-promotion by way of not-promoting myself but talking about the successful strategies of independent musicians everywhere and specifically not taking any credit for any of it. Whatever, it's insane and it's his deal so he can have it.

Carry on.
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
VegasMusicMan / Downloads, the future - Q+A forum with expert guests from CD Baby, Tunecore and Nimbit
16
bschigel / Geekslutz forum
7

Forum Jump
Forum Jump