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President annouces support for radio pay-to-play Dynamics Plugins
Old 3rd April 2010
  #31
Gear Nut
 

This is great news for everyone who makes or tries to make a living doing music.

First, the United States is one of the only countries that does not already do this. From what I remember two of the other three are either communist or dictatorship. That's not necessarily relevant to this discussion, but interesting to know.

Radio stations and networks have been up in arms over this for a long time. But believe me, I know the people who have been in Washington fighting for it, and ALL parties in the music business support this bill. (including the MPA who were historically opposed to it) Also, the bill is VERY generous toward the stations. It is a gradual implementation, and older smaller stations are grandfathered in. That means a small station in Nowhere, Idaho is not going to get hit with a $5,000 a year fee. Many of these stations won't be paying much at all.

I heard it put this way. One of the bigger country stations here in Nashville would have to run SIX MORE ONE MINUTE COMMERCIALS A YEAR TO COVER THE FEE. That puts it in perspective.

Granted, radio is hurting.. everyone is hurting in the economy. But they certainly aren't hurting like the music business. And Performance fees aren't the cause of that... the debt from the buy ups of all the stations during deregulation is what is hurting the stations. Bad corporate moves.

Like another poster said, this is why it is good for everyone.

1. For artists: They are now paid performances on songs they didn't write. That means there is more incentive for them to record outside songs. What does this mean? Well in country music for instance it means you don't have to listen to as many terrible songs on the radio, because the people writing the best songs aren't the artists. They're the songwriters.

2. For Labels: It means labels make more money. Now before you go off bashing this, think about it this way. When a label has more money. They have the resources to sign develop and release more artists. I've heard a label president say... "Why would we release that single? If it goes to number one, the person who wrote the song is going to make more money than we will, because it's not going to sell us any more records".

3. For Songwriters: See above. More singles, more artists means more avenues for songs to be released.

4. For Producers, Engineers, and Studios: potentially more music will be made which gives everyone more business.


I don't believe this is going to solve everyone's problems overnight, but it is a great step in the right direction, and it CERTAINLY is not going to hurt anyone on the side of the music business.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #32
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJamesGoody View Post
Well I think there is a real fear of that happening under this legislation. There are some talks going on about exclusions and other such exemptions for religious stations (why do they always get exemptions?), and incidental users of music (not sure how that is defined yet).
Most of them are non-commercial stations. They give away any money they make on advertising, and run the station on donations they collect in "pledge drives"...

Very interesting i know...

College radio stations are exempt from performance fees under this as well since most of them are non-commercial.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #33
Gear Addict
 
spectrasound's Avatar
re. Thanks for the kind words...

I'm very aware that this fee was in the making before Nobama...it's just funny how he immediately backs it up. The intelligent administration before his saw it for what it was.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #34
Gear Nut
 

I am really stunned at how much opposition is here on a board full of people this bill is designed to help.

Music always gets the short end of the stick, politically, and we are always getting ripped off, and letting people do it to us because it is our "art", and like an abused wife we are conditioned to believe we don't deserve better.

The stations are making money off our work. Period.

80% of music stations are "oldies" whether recent or classic.

If the "song" is the only thing worth paying for, I'd love to see how big the audiences for these stations would be if instead of Elvis, Patsy Cline, Bette Midler, Whitney Houston, etc... all they got were cover versions of the songs without those artists.

Or... keep the singers, but replace all the original session musicians with copycat versions of the arrangements... Everyone would be screaming that it doesn't feel like the "real" version!

Those PERFORMANCES bring in their ad money. They are plain and simple robbing us.

I can't walk into Guitar Center and say...

"I can't afford this compressor, but I NEED it to make money as a producer, so therefore, I believe I am entitled to just walk out of the store with it for free... don't worry, I'll tell everyone how great it is and that they should buy one from you sometime."

If WE can't agree that we deserve to be paid, how can we expect congress to rally behind it.

I wrote a blog post on this at my website with a link to the big petition. PLEASE sign it, and spread the word and help educate people on our rights to earn money on our craft when other people are profiting on them.

Here's the link: It is NOT a TAX! Please Support the Performance Rights Act! | Copperhead Production
Old 3rd April 2010
  #35
Lives for gear
 

Yippee. Radio sucks around here.Thanks to CC and the other megaconglomerates swallowing up radio stations around the country, the styles on the airwaves around here are now limited to classic rock (same playlist every three hours), hip-hop or rap (same playlist every three hours), modern country (blech), or talk radio.That's it. We don't even have classical or public radio out here.There is a lot of good music that is not getting played on radio. Explain how this bill is going to help them.I also got tired of the heavy advertising.I ceased listening to radio since 2003. I bought a car with a factory CD player that happened to play MP3s so I ripped all my CDs to mp3s and burned them onto discs. I have CDs for jazz, fusion, classical, funk, blues, easy, etc. Each CD holds 150 mp3s. I put in whatever I am in the mood for and press random play, and it's like having my personal radio station.I know several friends who do the same thing.Radio is no longer the media it used to be.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #36
Lives for gear
 

Would someone explain why carriage returns aren't working in my posts?
Old 3rd April 2010
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrasound View Post
I'm very aware that this fee was in the making before Nobama...it's just funny how he immediately backs it up. The intelligent administration before his saw it for what it was.
Or you could see it as Obama backing creative people, Bush backing corporate radio.

Really this site does confuse me at times.
Maybe the membership are more conservative industry insiders and less self employed musicians, engineers and record producers?
Old 3rd April 2010
  #38
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DJamesGoody's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
How is it different in Europe?
People like to make money/profit in the UK too. Musicians like a chance to share in the success of the music they play on.
Doesn't seem that different to me.
The audience and consumer public is different than it is here. The broadcast paradigm is different here. Vastly.

Yes, musicians want the same access, no doubt. I'm just talking about the delivery side, and the money involved.

And to qualify, on paper, I am very much in favor of this legislation. But I have serious reservations about the real world implementation, and for me, it requires more consideration.

Any time I see the RIAA lobbying heavily for something, it gives me pause. There's good reason for scrutiny here, to make sure it's done right when they move forward.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
djemberecords's Avatar
 

Just because he read it off the teleprompter does not mean it's true or that anything will happen.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJamesGoody View Post
But I have serious reservations about the real world implementation, and for me, it requires more consideration.
Oh well, the real world implementation is working in the UK.
There are many commercial radio stations and they aren't going bust, nor are they limiting the styles of music played.
If anything, most European radio stations play a wider, more ambitious selection of music than American stations.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #41
Gear Maniac
 

Additional Regulation is rarely a "good" thing...

Will these fees (read: "taxes") amount to anything more than a political pat on the a$$ to content creators? Only time will tell...

My take on this is that the conglomerates will continue to make more money while the actual workers of the world continue to get more impoverished.

Just another way the Obama-nation is getting his ticket in the bunker paid for.

I mean really, do all the dim-wit-o-crat's still believe this guy holds to his word?

Ok, let the flaming begin...

Guess what's next for the american public: $8 a gallon gas and Value Added Tax or V.A.T.

Back to your regularly scheduled 'programming'....


Nathan.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Ken Walker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
If anything, most European radio stations play a wider, more ambitious selection of music than American stations.
Of course they do. Europe has 37 countries, 36 languages spoken by more than 1 million people (not to mention the number of biligual speakers in Europe), and 50 different cultures rolled into the same approximate land area as the United States. Only an uneducated person would think that Europe didn't have a wider selection of music.

Europe is not the United States. What works in one place doesn't always correlate to success in the other. No one can say with certainty that the proposition to make radio pay in the U.S. will work or not.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #43
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Grumblefoot's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Walker View Post
Of course they do. Europe has 37 countries, 36 languages spoken by more than 1 million people (not to mention the number of biligual speakers in Europe), and 50 different cultures rolled into the same approximate land area as the United States. Only an uneducated person would think that Europe didn't have a wider selection of music.

Europe is not the United States. What works in one place doesn't always correlate to success in the other. No one can say with certainty that the proposition to make radio pay in the U.S. will work or not.

+1

Ken you are my hero!
This type of thinking is what this board, country, and planet need more of!
Old 3rd April 2010
  #44
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Jimbo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC View Post
Would someone explain why carriage returns aren't working in my posts?
Because they are employed by the government.

(just kidding: I hate this political shyte)
Old 3rd April 2010
  #45
Lives for gear
 
DJamesGoody's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Walker View Post
Europe is not the United States. What works in one place doesn't always correlate to success in the other. No one can say with certainty that the proposition to make radio pay in the U.S. will work or not.
That was what I was saying about Europe being a completely different market.

Not to mention, there is a marked cultural difference with regard to profiteering in Europe v. US. Subsidies for radio are completely different, the market itself is different, the listeners and audience, etc.....
Old 3rd April 2010
  #46
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenOne View Post
Just another way the government is trying to limit the free market.

The free market of broadcast radio?

I want to live on your planet, it sounds nice! heh

Seriously, though... we're talking about legislation that primarily (not exclusively, but primarily) affects gigantic multinational broadcasting oligarchies who serve as advertising vehicles for gigantic multinational content-generating oligarchies, all of whom are so vastly funded and legally protected we couldn't begin to compete with them if we tried.

The 'market', in the larger sense, is all forms of broadcast... including internet, where the 'smaller' guys (Pandora, last fm, etc. ) actually exist and stand a chance of having a presence. These internet companies have to pay when they play, what we're talking about here is lifting the exemption that Clear Channel and a small handful of other global concerns currently enjoy.

The US is not, never has been, and never will be a 'free market' economy. It's not in the Constitution (nothing about capitalism is), over half the men who developed and authored the Constitution did not wish us to be capitalist/economic nation, and the system was deliberately designed from the ground up to insulate the government from financial institutions that were so huge as to be virtual monarchies. It's debatable how well we've maintained those protections or honored that intention, but attempting to frame all legislative debates within the shroud of the illusory free market is simply a non-sequitur.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 3rd April 2010
  #47
Lives for gear
 
bcgood's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
The free market of broadcast radio?

I want to live on your planet, it sounds nice! heh

Seriously, though... we're talking about legislation that primarily (not exclusively, but primarily) affects gigantic multinational broadcasting oligarchies who serve as advertising vehicles for gigantic multinational content-generating oligarchies, all of whom are so vastly funded and legally protected we couldn't begin to compete with them if we tried.

The 'market', in the larger sense, is all forms of broadcast... including internet, where the 'smaller' guys (Pandora, last fm, etc. ) actually exist and stand a chance of having a presence. These internet companies have to pay when they play, what we're talking about here is lifting the exemption that Clear Channel and a small handful of other global concerns currently enjoy.

The US is not, never has been, and never will be a 'free market' economy. It's not in the Constitution (nothing about capitalism is), over half the men who developed and authored the Constitution did not wish us to be capitalist/economic nation, and the system was deliberately designed from the ground up to insulate the government from financial institutions that were so huge as to be virtual monarchies. It's debatable how well we've maintained those protections or honored that intention, but attempting to frame all legislative debates within the shroud of the illusory free market is simply a non-sequitur.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Very well said Gregory, you should run for office, I'd vote for you!
Old 3rd April 2010
  #48
The President also supports closing Gitmo, comprehensive immigration reform, getting us out of Iraq and putting the health care debate on CSPAN. He also said any bill would sit for 5 days so everyone could examine it before he signed it.

How did those work out for ya?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 3rd April 2010
  #49
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Walker View Post
No one can say with certainty that the proposition to make radio pay in the U.S. will work or not.

I believe this is the essential point to be made here, and I wish everyone could take a breath, pause, and reflect on what it means.

None of us knows if this legislation would work, or what effect it will have. Life is rife with unintended consequences, randomness, and unforeseen variables.

The U.S. used to pride itself on being an experiment; democracy itself was a gigantic experiment in creating a collective government that did not pass power down along blood lines. Unheard of! Insane! Doomed!

We have, as a culture, become afraid to test out new theories, to institute bold new measures and see what actually happens when we try something untested. Instead, we attempt to ascertain all the reasons why something definitely will work, or definitely won't, and we debate ad nauseum. But we can never develop a process which lets us predict and control the future. Not ever. We just have to try, and learn from our mistakes.

We would almost all agree that it would be good to have things change in the industry of music and broadcast radio. But rather than experiment, and takes risks, we make 'perfect' the enemy of 'good' and we stall all forward processes because the proposed solution is not perfect, it does not account for everyone's fears and concerns, it even spells the end of the free world to others who are particularly afraid of change.

Health care anyone?

I'm of the camp that believes it is preferable to fail while trying than to stand idly by as circumstances continuously evolve in ways we collectively agree are not optimal or even desirable. We have an industry in turmoil, we all deal with (and *are*) the little guys who struggle to make a dime within the system while the big players sit on vast coffers using their formidable resources to protect their interests at all costs. Despite what the media would have us believe, it *IS* a legitimate use of government power to protect the interests of the common man from the interests of legal fictions such as corporations.

I'm all for this legislation, not because I believe it will work, or solve every problem... but because it seems as good a place to start as any. We can tweak it as we go, but we gotta start moving forward or the world will pass us by.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 3rd April 2010
  #50
Lives for gear
 
Ken Walker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I'm of the camp that believes it is preferable to fail while trying than to stand idly by as circumstances continuously evolve in ways we collectively agree are not optimal or even desirable...I'm all for this legislation, not because I believe it will work, or solve every problem... but because it seems as good a place to start as any. We can tweak it as we go, but we gotta start moving forward or the world will pass us by.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Thomas Edison would like you.

I think a huge issue here is that the current and past administration have either gotten us into trouble with agendas that were not well-researched or thought out or pushed forward with ideas while not properly vetting the issues as promised. There is a collective mistrust in America with regard to sweeping government-sponsered change, and with good reason. I can't fault either side of the debate because both sides have good points to be made. It is too bad that those points cannot, or will not, be debated at this time. Hopefully that changes.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #51
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Walker View Post
There is a collective mistrust in America with regard to sweeping government-sponsered change, and with good reason.

Out of curiosity, what would you say the good reason is?


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 3rd April 2010
  #52
Lives for gear
 
Ken Walker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Out of curiosity, what would you say the good reason is?


Gregory Scott - ubk
I'd rather not get into that, as the reasons are long, complex, and would take this thread into pure politics. I already called out a thread in another forum that went into "forbidden" areas and it would be wrong of me to do the same. These guys might get me...
Old 3rd April 2010
  #53
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Walker View Post
I'd rather not get into that, as the reasons are long, complex...

Well if they're long and complex I'd rather not get into it either. heh

I had a prof in college who told me that if I couldn't get my grandmother to understand it in 2 sentences or less, it's probably not the truth.

I don't know if that's accurate, but it sure is an interesting notion.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 3rd April 2010
  #54
Lives for gear
 
Neenja's Avatar
 

This would immediately put more money in the pockets of working musicians because they would start getting money from Europe that they don't get now.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #55
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Walker View Post
Of course they do. Europe has 37 countries, 36 languages spoken by more than 1 million people (not to mention the number of biligual speakers in Europe), and 50 different cultures rolled into the same approximate land area as the United States. Only an uneducated person would think that Europe didn't have a wider selection of music.
Right, and in the US there is only one kind of person and only one language is spoken.

?!?
Old 3rd April 2010
  #56
Gear Nut
 

Wow. The issue at hand isn't whether radio is good or not. It isn't about how to "make" them m play a wider variety of music. The issue is they make money off what they play from advertisers, and they should pay the performers.

I don't like Wal Mart. But I do think they should pay their suppliers.

I don't like Digidesign's business ethic. But I don't have to buy from them. I still feel they should pay the people who supply their parts.

There is plenty of free, cracked, software out there that could help me earn money from my clients. But I don't use them. I pay for the software I use.

Commercial radio should pay for the performances that bring in the audiences that advertisers want to pay to reach.

I am bamboozled about where there is ANY question mark about this. Especially in this forum.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #57
Gear Addict
 
spectrasound's Avatar
Hmmm....

Because they are employed by the government.

Soon we'll all be employed by the government...just like in Venezuela!
Old 3rd April 2010
  #58
Lives for gear
 
dan p's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrasound View Post
Because they are employed by the government.

Soon we'll all be employed by the government...just like in Venezuela!
You dont have enough posts to be relevant.
If you read and understood the bigger picture better you would not make the statements you make.
Look at the number of posts that some of the people have on this thread and they have more experience and knowledge than you do.
Try and read what they are saying and research some of the information better so you can be enlightened a bit more.
UBK is right on the money,Ken Walker also makes good points and I dont think I have EVER read a post by Chrisso I did not agree with.
Thanks Guys,I like to see the discussion as opposed to the attacks,it supports the intellect and how we evolve forward instead of backwards.


Dan P
Old 3rd April 2010
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Walker View Post
Of course they do. Europe has 37 countries, 36 languages spoken by more than 1 million people (not to mention the number of biligual speakers in Europe), and 50 different cultures rolled into the same approximate land area as the United States. Only an uneducated person would think that Europe didn't have a wider selection of music.
That's not what I was saying at all.
Firstly, I'm concentrating on the UK, which with every post you are studiously ignoring.
Secondly, American culture and music has widely infiltrated Europe. In most cases, American music is far more popular than local content.
Is not America made up largely of European immigrants too?
But anyway, American business practices have been widely adopted in the UK.
The popular music is either American, or popular on both sides of the Atlantic (U2, Coldplay etc).
It's just a historical fact that UK radio has comfortably played reggae alongside disco and then a hard rock track.
The stations haven't become more conservative or closed down in their droves due to musician performance payments.
That's the important point here.
You are swallowing a scare tactic being put about by the broadcast industry to protect profits.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neenja View Post
This would immediately put more money in the pockets of working musicians because they would start getting money from Europe that they don't get now.
Thanks to the UK system, they already can.
I posted the link earlier but most likely no one looked.
Quote:
If you are a US citizen then, as the US is not currently a qualifying territory, your performances will only be qualifying performances if they took place in a qualifying territory (see previous FAQ for a list of these) or at a time when you were a citizen/subject of or a resident in a qualifying territory.
If your performances are qualifying performances, then you are likely to be entitled to equitable remuneration for them – why not register with us and find out?
If you recorded an album in London, or played on a live album with a French artist you are eligible for rolling income. Of course I don't get anything for the American albums I played on.
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