The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Moby: The RIAA Needs to be Disbanded
Old 21st June 2009
  #91
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
"Dear potential consumer,

I feel you are immoral..."

See... doesn't really have a good ring to it.

Hasn't really worked too well for the industry either. It's about time to leave that out of the convo.
Whereas calling a person who behaves immorally immoral seems perfectly reasonable.

Establish the facts before acting is good advice in all walks of life.

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #92
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
Whereas calling a person who behaves immorally immoral seems perfectly reasonable.

Establish the facts before acting is good advice in all walks of life.

James
James, the internet is all about sharing. To convince someone that it's immoral means you have to convince them that they should not be using the internet in the way that it is intended to be used.

We're talking about a whole generation that is growing up that has never bought a cd in a store before.

This is not a war you are going to win.

And society deems a lot of things perfectly moral today that weren't ok even 20 years ago. Times change.

-Robert
Old 21st June 2009
  #93
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
The new model really has little to do with intellectual property. It has to do with connecting with fans and selling them something.

James, EVERY SONG EVER RECORDED HAS BEEN COPIED DIGITALLY. You can't go all gestapo into every harddrive in the world and remove them. It's just not going to happen. They are out there.

We can't go back in time "Back to the Future" style (yet! that's the only viable solution so far to stopping piracy and supporing the old model that i've thought of thus far).

All it takes is for a song to be uploaded once and that's the same as it being copied a million times as far as the internet is concerned; it's out there.

So why even discuss that!?!?! Every back catalogue has been compromised and since all it takes is one upload, every album in the future will be, as well.

If you have the time to watch those videos NARM videos from Topspin, they talk about how the beastie boys just successfully reissued their old catalogue with a ton of added material and it was a success because people like the added value of that package.

Radiohead is about to rerelease 3 of their albums in the same way. It's not rocket science. Connect with fans, add value, sell them something.
I'm probably being really dense, so take it slowly for me.

In my initial post I tried to illustrate that respect for the creator and defence of intellectual property are important even in the digital age. You posted a reply which included but wasn't limited to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Hi James.

I agree with your entire post including the part where you a problem with me
I don't have a problem with you in anyway and I'm flattered that you largely agree with the point I made. But you didn't answer my question.

To be clear I don't believe you can un-eat the apple.

I would also respectfully suggest that both models could peacefully co-exist and that would not require the discovery/invention of time travel.

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #94
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
I'm probably being really dense, so take it slowly for me.

In my initial post I tried to illustrate that respect for the creator and defence of intellectual property are important even in the digital age. You posted a reply which included but wasn't limited to.



I don't have a problem with you in anyway and I'm flattered that you largely agree with the point I made. But you didn't answer my question.

To be clear I don't believe you can un-eat the apple.

I would also respectfully suggest that both models could peacefully co-exist and that would not require the discovery/invention of time travel.

James
Well good luck with your fantasy.

EDIT:
I mean you just told me you believe in something being possible despite all evidence pointing to the contrary. That's a strange position to take but I really meant the good luck part.
Old 21st June 2009
  #95
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
James, the internet is all about sharing. To convince someone that it's immoral means you have to convince them that they should not be using the internet in the way that it is intended to be used.

We're talking about a whole generation that is growing up that has never bought a cd in a store before.

This is not a war you are going to win.

And society deems a lot of things perfectly moral today that weren't ok even 20 years ago. Times change.

-Robert
Society does not currently deem this behaviour moral or legal, this is evidenced by the successful court case against the individuals and organisations.

There is a section of society that does not agree, it is their role, if they choose, to get a democratic mandate to change this if they disagree. If that happens you'll get no argument from me.

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #96
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
Society does not currently deem this behaviour moral or legal, this is evidenced by the successful court case against the individuals and organisations.

There is a section of society that does not agree, it is their role, if they choose, to get a democratic mandate to change this if they disagree. If that happens you'll get no argument from me.

James
The legal part you are correct about. Most of the people that find it moral to download are very new to the political process and not very active. Give them about 10 years.
Old 21st June 2009
  #97
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Well good luck with your fantasy.

EDIT:
I mean you just told me you believe in something being possible despite all evidence pointing to the contrary. That's a strange position to take but I really meant the good luck part.
I'm not sure suggesting I'm a fantasist is that productive.

Specifically what evidence points to the contrary ?

My personal, first hand, experience is that I've worked on a major label release ( old model ) and web promotional give away for a band ( new model ) in the last thirty days.

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #98
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Jam,

Why are so many bands signing deals with livenation where livenation gets a cut of merch?

Why are the record labels trying to get cuts of the bands' merch.

Just more evidence to refute that the old model can coexist with the new one. Even the big corporations wouldn't agree with you on that one.
Old 21st June 2009
  #99
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
This is from the videos that I keep referencing:

"Top 5 music retailers:

1. Itunes
2. Walmart
3. Best Buy
4. Amazon
5. Target

What do they have in common? They all use music as a loss-leader or very low-margin leader. (from the Mike Masnick video)"

Ok, so basically music now is being sold to sell ipods or to pull you into a store. And since sales keep dropping, how long will that exist?!?!

Best buy is about to cut their music sections in half, according to those videos. Sales keep falling - they have no reason to waste the shelf space!

(best buy is one of those electronics superstores...i see you are in the UK...)

The answer is to use the music to sell something for yourself. or in a group with other bands like you suggested. that is what music is proving to be good for and its time for people to get creative and turn it into some profit.
Old 21st June 2009
  #100
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Jam,

Why are so many bands signing deals with livenation where livenation gets a cut of merch?

Why are the record labels trying to get cuts of the bands' merch.

Just more evidence to refute that the old model can coexist with the new one. Even the big corporations wouldn't agree with you on that one.
The examples you state, aren't evidence of inability to coexist.

They are evidence of the existence of a new model in the first case and the ability of an "old" business trying to find new revenue streams in a declining market.

Specifically, what about these two example would not allow them to coexist ?

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #101
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
The examples you state, aren't evidence of inability to coexist.

They are evidence of the existence of a new model in the first case and the ability of an "old" business trying to find new revenue streams in a declining market.

Specifically, what about these two example would not allow them to coexist ?

James
Well one of those can't exist, is my point. It's done. Just google the sales figures.

They co-existed before with bands like Phish and the grateful dead...so i guess you're just arguing semantics now? Sorry i worded my thoughts wrong but yeah....the old model is dead and not coming back and i've presented the evidence to support that (as has pretty much every expert on media. again, google is your friend).
Old 21st June 2009
  #102
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
This is from the videos that I keep referencing:

"Top 5 music retailers:

1. Itunes
2. Walmart
3. Best Buy
4. Amazon
5. Target

What do they have in common? They all use music as a loss-leader or very low-margin leader. (from the Mike Masnick video)"

Ok, so basically music now is being sold to sell ipods or to pull you into a store. And since sales keep dropping, how long will that exist?!?!

Best buy is about to cut their music sections in half, according to those videos. Sales keep falling - they have no reason to waste the shelf space!
Specifically, how does this demonstrate that the old model and new model can't coexist ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
(best buy is one of those electronics superstores...i see you are in the UK...)
It's cool, I've spent quite a bit of time in the states over the last ten years, so I have some idea of the retail landscape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
The answer is to use the music to sell something for yourself. or in a group with other bands like you suggested. that is what music is proving to be good for and its time for people to get creative and turn it into some profit.
Have no problem with this !! Still can't get my head round the idea that I wouldn't want to protect my IP in this scenario, care to elaborate ?

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #103
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
Specifically, how does this demonstrate that the old model and new model can't coexist ?



It's cool, I've spent quite a bit of time in the states over the last ten years, so I have some idea of the retail landscape.



Have no problem with this !! Still can't get my head round the idea that I wouldn't want to protect my IP in this scenario, care to elaborate ?

James
Are you talking about licensing for tv, radio, video games, commercials etc? Your rights are totally protected there.

As far as the internet goes - i think i explained pretty well how the internet works, didn't i? do i need to clear that up anymore? You might "WANT TO" protect your IP...tell me how you would? impossible. I went over that. That's not how the internet works.
Old 21st June 2009
  #104
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
Specifically, how does this demonstrate that the old model and new model can't coexist ?


James
It demonstrates that it's dead. I gave the reasons why, for some reasons i have to keep showing you more evidence. It's dead. DNR.
Old 21st June 2009
  #105
Lives for gear
 

i think i want to share some 100 dollar bill Y0!
Old 21st June 2009
  #106
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
In summation:

- The brick and mortar stores are giving up on the old model (and the ones that haven't been able use music as a loss-leader have closed up shop ie: tower, virgin megastores closing, etc).
- The labels are giving up on the old model and trying to get a cut of merch and touring.
- Most bands are giving up on the old model and jumping on web 2.0 to spread their music (all of the examples i've been giving- umm... metric, trent reznor, all of the labels on rcrdlbl.com)

You told me that you understand that you can't un-eat the apple.

So, James...what else do i have to prove to you? I'm confused.
Old 21st June 2009
  #107
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
It demonstrates that it's dead. I gave the reasons why, for some reasons i have to keep showing you more evidence. It's dead. DNR.
So if I were to check the sales charts of the aforementioned outlets, your choices not mine, would I find the majority of media would be from "new model" businesses ?

That would be evidence that the old model was dead or at least DNR to coin a phrase.

If I were to find the opposite it would prove the contrary ?

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #108
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
In summation:

- The brick and mortar stores are giving up on the old model (and the ones that haven't been able use music as a loss-leader have closed up shop ie: tower, virgin megastores closing, etc).
Wouldn't that just prove that record shops are dead ? Or to be little more wordy that new distribution methodologies have given rise to cost savings, through horizontal and vertical integration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
- The labels are giving up on the old model and trying to get a cut of merch and touring.
Or that they've realised that there a revenue streams they weren't exploiting and that competition has provoked them to have to realise every cent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
- Most bands are giving up on the old model and jumping on web 2.0 to spread their music (all of the examples i've been giving- umm... metric, trent reznor, all of the labels on rcrdlbl.com)
Most bands is greater than 50% I'd need to see data for that. The vast majority of material in the charts I've just checked is still from the old model, this was also the case for the PirateBay chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
You told me that you understand that you can't un-eat the apple.
The internet is here to stay and will no doubt become more important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
So, James...what else do i have to prove to you? I'm confused.
That you understand the difference between anecdotal evidence and proof.

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #109
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
So if I were to check the sales charts of the aforementioned outlets, your choices not mine, would I find the majority of media would be from "new model" businesses ?

That would be evidence that the old model was dead or at least DNR to coin a phrase.

If I were to find the opposite it would prove the contrary ?

James
No. Wow. Ok...we have a fundamental problem here if you even asked that question. I think you need to start over and reread everything...but if you just watch those 2 videos from the other thread, it will actually save you a lot of time and put everything together in a nice little package.

Your question is so flawed - charts prove nothing, unless you want to look at today's charts vs. the charts of a few years ago and see how the old model is dying? Waste of time though, we know how they look.

I think only two albums this year have gone over a million sales...Taylor Swift and the Hannah Montana soundtrack...maybe Eminem has? i haven't looked since the first week of June.

In those videos you'll also find that Trent Reznor made $1.2 mill gross his first week of sales, metric debuted at #1 on the billboard charts JUST FROM ITUNE PRESALES and on their own label, etc.

Mosdef is selling his album on a tshirt, btw...you buy the tshirt and there will be a download code on it...and soundscan has decided that they will count tshirt sales as sales. it's hilarious/awesome! (oh wow it just debut'ed at #9...wonder how many were tshirt sales)

But very few bands in this new business model sell their music at walmart now. So yeah, question is flawed.

God, i'm almost tempted to throw that shill word out again...i'm sorry i know you hate it...but it's really strange how you're unwilling to accept things despite all the evidence.
Old 21st June 2009
  #110
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Apple - iTunes - iTunes Store - Charts - Top 10 Songs

DRAKE.

Check the charts. unsigned. (and didn't even clear the sample...ouch. someone is going to get a lot of publishing off of that one).

Please don't respond to this post. It's off-topic and i bit on your off-topic trolling.

Charts have very little to do with this.
Old 21st June 2009
  #111
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
Wouldn't that just prove that record shops are dead ? Or to be little more wordy that new distribution methodologies have given rise to cost savings, through horizontal and vertical integration.



Or that they've realised that there a revenue streams they weren't exploiting and that competition has provoked them to have to realise every cent.



Most bands is greater than 50% I'd need to see data for that. The vast majority of material in the charts I've just checked is still from the old model, this was also the case for the PirateBay chart.



The internet is here to stay and will no doubt become more important.



That you understand the difference between anecdotal evidence and proof.

James
See...yeah, but i've been offering proof.

Music sales drop for 7th time in 8 years - Jan. 1, 2009

There is your proof. I'm sorry that i have to point out very obvious things that everyone else knows to be true to you. I hope that helps. In the future - try google?
Old 21st June 2009
  #112
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
No. Wow. Ok...we have a fundamental problem here if you even asked that question. I think you need to start over and reread everything...but if you just watch those 2 videos from the other thread, it will actually save you a lot of time and put everything together in a nice little package.

Your question is so flawed - charts prove nothing, unless you want to look at today's charts vs. the charts of a few years ago and see how the old model is dying? Waste of time though, we know how they look.

I think only two albums this year have gone over a million sales...Taylor Swift and the Hannah Montana soundtrack...maybe Eminem has? i haven't looked since the first week of June.

In those videos you'll also find that Trent Reznor made $1.2 mill gross his first week of sales, metric debuted at #1 on the billboard charts JUST FROM ITUNE PRESALES and on their own label, etc.

Mosdef is selling his album on a tshirt, btw...you buy the tshirt and there will be a download code on it...and soundscan has decided that they will count tshirt sales as sales. it's hilarious/awesome! (oh wow it just debut'ed at #9...wonder how many were tshirt sales)

But very few bands in this new business model sell their music at walmart now. So yeah, question is flawed.

God, i'm almost tempted to throw that shill word out again...i'm sorry i know you hate it...but it's really strange how you're unwilling to accept things despite all the evidence.
You said said the music industry was dead, this is binary, it's dead or it isn't.

The only way I can think of to measure this is to look at sales, the charts are still dominated by traditional record labels, that seems pretty unequivocal to me.

You said the two models can't coexist, yet the charts of the outlets you named are full of releases from traditional labels, you go on to name a number of "new model" acts that are doing great, how is this not coexisting ?

The make up of the charts both the P2P and legal, seem to show that major labels are still here and dominant, you may know better but you seem unwilling or unable to demonstrate this.

I totally accept sales aren't what they used to be, you can prove this with data, I can't understand why anyone would argue the contrary. I certainly didn't.

You can toss out any casual insult you like, you've called me a fantasist and stopped just short of calling me a shill. You won't provoke me and it won't make what you're saying any truer.

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #113
Gear Addict
 
Koed's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
See...yeah, but i've been offering proof.

Music sales drop for 7th time in 8 years - Jan. 1, 2009

There is your proof. I'm sorry that i have to point out very obvious things that everyone else knows to be true to you. I hope that helps. In the future - try google?
That's evidence at most, don't forget we're in a worldwide economic crisis.
Old 21st June 2009
  #114
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koed View Post
That's evidence at most, don't forget we're in a worldwide economic crisis.
There's a lovely expression, correlation is not causation, it seems fair to use it here.

James
Old 21st June 2009
  #115
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
You said said the music industry was dead, this is binary, it's dead or it isn't.

The only way I can think of to measure this is to look at sales, the charts are still dominated by traditional record labels, that seems pretty unequivocal to me.

You said the two models can't coexist, yet the charts of the outlets you named are full of releases from traditional labels, you go on to name a number of "new model" acts that are doing great, how is this not coexisting ?

The make up of the charts both the P2P and legal, seem to show that major labels are still here and dominant, you may know better but you seem unwilling or unable to demonstrate this.

I totally accept sales aren't what they used to be, you can prove this with data, I can't understand why anyone would argue the contrary. I certainly didn't.

You can toss out any casual insult you like, you've called me a fantasist and stopped just short of calling me a shill. You won't provoke me and it won't make what you're saying any truer.

James
DOMINATE? The major labels DOMINATE? There are major label records that debut on the charts all the time now with like 15,000 sales. The numbers are embarrassing. What is with your fascination with charts?!?!? How are charts relevant at all!?

You just pulled this charts nonsense out of the air which has nothing to do with anything.

Are we arguing over the word coexist? Semantics again?

I told you that they have coexisted in the past - i gave examples (something i have a habit of doing, eh?).

Is your argument that the major record labels are alive and well? Either you are saying that (!!!! WUT?!?!) or i have no clue what you're talking about at this point.
Old 21st June 2009
  #116
Lives for gear
 
XHipHop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam View Post
There's a lovely expression, correlation is not causation, it seems fair to use it here.

James

Wow. pull your head out of the sand. people can't buy $9.99 albums because of the economic crisis...right...

BUT - look at all the iphones apple just had people line up to buy yesterday - many of them at the full $599 price unsubsidized.

Seriously, wow.

You guys are too much.

The labels are fine everyone...once this economic crises passes, James has declared it will all be ok.

I mean, every media expert out there disagrees with him as does the evidence, but hey, he's not a "fantasist".

Please be objective, James. You clearly just want to argue with me but please look at the evidence.
Old 21st June 2009
  #117
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
James, the internet is all about sharing.
I really don't agree with this premise.
The internet is about communication and information. Simple as that, end of story.
The internet is also chock full of content that people want to protect - keep to themselves.
Virtually every forum I visit includes content with a copyright symbol attached.
I wonder what would happen if someone started Gearsluts dot com, with a 'Music & Studio Business forum etc.....
I know amateur enthusiasts who have published info about a particular band, or about a particular brand of drums.
They plaster their photos with a web watermark so no one else can use them.
they pursue, out and shame anyone who regurgitates their text on another forum without asking first.

So, I honestly think this notion that the internet is all about sharing is quite bogus.
Old 21st June 2009
  #118
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post

The labels are fine everyone...once this economic crises passes, James has declared it will all be ok.

I mean, every media expert out there disagrees with him as does the evidence, but hey, he's not a "fantasist".

Please be objective, James. You clearly just want to argue with me but please look at the evidence.
I think you have a lot of powerful things to say.
I really wish you would stop mocking and belittling people who disagree with some of your points.
We cant all sing perfectly from your hymn sheet.
The music industry is hugely diverse.
Old 21st June 2009
  #119
Whatever the origins, do you deny everything or anything that I've written above.
take a look at BBC online news terms of use for example.
Quote:
You may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available to the public, or otherwise use bbc.co.uk content in any way except for your own personal, non-commercial use. You also agree not to adapt, alter or create a derivative work from any bbc.co.uk content except for your own personal, non-commercial use. Any other use of bbc.co.uk content requires the prior written permission of the BBC.
Old 21st June 2009
  #120
Jam
Lives for gear
 
Jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
DOMINATE? The major labels DOMINATE? There are major label records that debut on the charts all the time now with like 15,000 sales. The numbers are embarrassing. What is with your fascination with charts?!?!? How are charts relevant at all!?

You just pulled this charts nonsense out of the air which has nothing to do with anything.
You've been saying, I paraphrase "that it's game over the old labels", there is an available statistical measure of records sold, this is charts, in those charts the majority of material is from the old labels. Currently in anyway that can be evaluated reliably, old labels are not dead and still have the larger market share, hence the dominant position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Are we arguing over the word coexist? Semantics again?

I told you that they have coexisted in the past - i gave examples (something i have a habit of doing, eh?).

Is your argument that the major record labels are alive and well? Either you are saying that (!!!! WUT?!?!) or i have no clue what you're talking about at this point.
I'm very comfortable with my use and definition of the word coexist, you said that the old models and new models couldn't coexist, I disagree.

I have no particular love for major labels, or new model businesses, I've met scumbags and lovely people in both.

My point as clearly and concisely as I can put it is.

Competition and innovation is good for a market place.

Major labels and old model businesses should be allowed to charge what they want for their media and it's uses.

New model musicians and businesses should be allowed to monetise, charge and reap the rewards for their labours as they see fit.

Nobody should abuse, disrespect or steal from either of the above.

I'm pretty sure I said something similar in my first post in this thread.

James
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump