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Woman in download case has lost her retrial, even bigger
Old 19th June 2009
  #121
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ThetaAlpha970's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by adpz View Post
I would go on to add that there is no such thing as "free" anyway. There is just having someone else pay for it. That true about public libraries, college tuition aid, etc.

Society has a legit interest in some of this "free"; however, society has no interest or benefit in giving you The Office Season Four for "free".
Somewhat agree. I can watch any Simpsons episode anytime I want for "free." People buy the DVD Box Sets for the increased quality and the commentaries. This "free" is the real, perceived value of watching Simpsons episodes online.
Old 19th June 2009
  #122
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post

And there won't be a lack of artists. That is a false argument.
Unless you had done what Henry did you wouldn't know.
Amazing, a man describes his personal experience and the pro piracy lobby says it's false.
Old 19th June 2009
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adpz View Post
I would go on to add that there is no such thing as "free" anyway. There is just having someone else pay for it. That true about public libraries, college tuition aid, etc.

Society has a legit interest in some of this "free"; however, society has no interest or benefit in giving you The Office Season Four for "free".
Most TV shows can be streamed in HD straight from the companies themselves - FOR FREE.

I don't follow your logic. Tv has been far ahead of the music industry in this regard. The tv industry has had to deal with PIRACY and TIVO and is still still treading water just fine.

None of the songs uploaded to youtube, for example, by universal music group are in HQ, btw. all low quality version. That's actually good news, though. Another hole in the boat and will just encourage someone else to upload a high quality version.
Old 19th June 2009
  #124
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
It's so weird to me how you guys want to fight progress!
Weird that you never understood not all progress is for the better.
Someone was moaning the other day because the new 'free music' deal offered by Virgin offers the musical equivalent of 'ringtones'.

Say someone wants to bulldoze your house to build a new runway for the airport.
That's progress.
Old 19th June 2009
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
You've lost the privilege of getting your music out to people via channels that were controlled by a select few?

sounds like progress to me.
OK, listen you're either not reading or you just don't know what you're talking about. So I'm going to stop talking. I had a record company that was owned by me. It got out to the world. All countries except China, and Russia and a few others. WTF are you talking about? These channels were not controlled by the select few.
Old 19th June 2009
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Unless you had done what Henry did you wouldn't know.
Amazing, a man describes his personal experience and the pro piracy lobby says it's false.
he said that he didn't even know what i was talking about so please don't speak for him. if you believe there are less artists now, i suggest you open your eyes, chrisso.
Old 19th June 2009
  #127
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThetaAlpha970 View Post
Somewhat agree. I can watch any Simpsons episode anytime I want for "free." People buy the DVD Box Sets for the increased quality and the commentaries. This "free" is the real, perceived value of watching Simpsons episodes online.
What about the perception that it is wrong?

This is what you freeloaders don't understand, if progress means you get what you want, when you want it, for free, no one will be able to afford to make things anymore.
No more Simpsons.
Is that a good thing?

Do you have any idea how much it costs to bring a single episode of The Simpsons to air?
Old 19th June 2009
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
OK, listen you're either not reading or you just don't know what you're talking about. So I'm going to stop talking. I had a record company that was owned by me. It got out to the world. All countries except China, and Russia and a few others. WTF are you talking about? These channels were not controlled by the select few.
You said that you had to advertise on radio, in print, etc. Those resulted in your high costs...you had to deal with distributors...more cost.

A SELECT FEW PEOPLE CONTROLLED WETHER OR NOT YOUR MUSIC GOT OUT TO PEOPLE.

For someone that is so experienced and astute, i really have to spell a lot of things out for you.

Now you can bypass all of those people, collect more money and your overhead is much lower. PROGRESS.

I feel like I should be charging for the pearls of wisdom I am dropping for you people.
Old 19th June 2009
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Wow. I can't even read all of this. That would be fine and dandy, except I WAS a record company. I was a small independent record company. Not a big, major, or a small major. I became a record company because I believed, like most, that the INDUSTRY was the evil empire. I believed that until the day I had 6 artists under me. We were set up. Had international distribution. But one thing that is little understood. It takes MAJOR money to be a record company. Everyone complains that the company took any where from 8 to 12% from the artists royalties and that the artist didn't get squat until their debt was paid. All true. But the investment of the company is/was ridiculous.

The artists who suffer the most are NOT the ones who have their pockets filled already. And why would you bemoan those who do well? Why criticize and try and bring down the successes? What is this, communism? The artists who suffer the most are the ones who are coming up, trying to make a living, or those, like myself, who were breaking through. The ones who suffer the most are the public who no longer have artists, who dedicate their lives to producing great music and productions for a fair and equitable exchange, guaranteeing that they can continue to pursue their dreams.
I'd like to share a remarkable story about a small artist and the power of beeing remarkable. I'm going to tell the true story of Marillion. Now you might remember them from their 1985 hit "Kayleigh". That was the only real hit they scored and after that, they changed lead singer. The band dissapeared to the underground with only a group of loyal fans.

They released an album in 1998 called Marillion.com (named after the website they just released back then). They put out an album every year/every few years so they where a pretty active band. Now because lack of funds (which happens with small bands) they had one problem:
They could not tour the USA/North America because they didn't had the sufficient funds for it.

A fan got hold of that message and started a money petition over the internet to raise funds for Marillion to let them come over to the USA for a tour. They did it and I believe they raised $20.000 which was enough for them to tour the USA and promote the new album.

After this, Marillion adopted the following businessmodel—because they where still short on the bank—to make a new album:
They wrote the major bulk of their album Anoraknaphobia. Fans could pre-order the album and if there was enough money raised, the album would be recorded. People that preordered/donated got a special edition of the album with their name in the booklet.
It was an instant hit and Marillion never thought they would be able to do that.

A few years futher (after the Anoraknophobia album) they did it again. This time for the double album Marbles. Internet was much bigger that time and the principle stayed the same. The action was an even bigger hit. They got so much money that they could fund the recording AND a very large tour which lasted almost a year and spanned several tours in europe, canada, the usa and even mexico. And even after that, they had a bit left which was used for the following album, Somewhere Else.

Now for Somewhere else, they dropped the action because their fanbase is now large enough and very steady.

This is a very remarkable thing from many points of view. There are a few lessons to be learned:
  • If you are remarkable enough for your fanbase, they will believe in you and invest in you if you give them what they want
  • If you listen to your fanbase and get to know them, they will give you much better insight
  • Notice the behaviour that is adopted as "Tribes". A tribe was started by someone who believed in something and it worked. Tribes are natural and are here as long as mankind. Don't ignore them, they are powerful and you can benefit from them
  • And finally, notice that instead of whining and complaining, working your ass off every day, taking well worth risks, doing something remarkable and making a movement is what helped Marillion beeing still alive today. In fact, their new album is coming out this autumn and I go and see them every year. I don't like all of their music, in fact I think their newer albums dissapoint me a bit, but I still believe in them and I always preorder the new album. Just because they are remarkable and worth it.
As the Dark side of the moon vs backstreet boys metaphor is concerned:
It's meant dead serious. I'm not talking about the quality of the music (in fact, I detest both. I hate the BSB and I detest the music of Pink Floyd because I find them overrated and boring—now don't shoot me) but about the remarkable factor.
Pink Floyd managed to create something that is very remarkable, even nowadays. They managed to create something that people talk about or make a remark about (remarkable = worth making a remark about). People bought this album over and over again. First a few sets of vinyl (because it wore out), then the cd, then the remaster, then the anniversairy edition and so forth. It seems crazy but that's how remarkable this specific product is. It's one of the best sold albums in music history and it still sells. And it's not because of the marketing at all (in fact, the marketing was horrible from what I believe and If I remember well, the album was already leaked before it was even out because they played it before they recorded it and some one bootlegged it and released it. Now that is 1973, leaking of albums is already as old as then) but because they just made an incredible remarkable product that people still talk about.

In fact, read this very forum. People still talk about this album, it is mentioned in various topics about albums, about sound quality, about mixing, just about every slutty thing we talk about on GS.

The first BSB album may have been remarkable aswel but that's not the general concensus. It was remarkable for a very small hand full of people. Sadly, that hand full of people is getting less and less and in a marketing context, it doesn't work. You just can't generate profit with that album. Sorry to tell you but with all respect, the BSB album lost from DSOTM. And again, I can't stress enough that it's not the "quality" of the music (as in I think BSB is ****ty stuff or PF is ****ty stuff), it's the remarkable thing that DSOTM has that makes it stand out.

Now here is an interesting blogpost:
Seth's Blog: Music lessons
Old 19th June 2009
  #130
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I don't measure quality by quantity. I have no idea whether or not there are MORE artists now. That means nothing to me. I certainly do NOT believe there are more highly skilled, trained and talented artists now. I think there are far less.
Old 19th June 2009
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Weird that you never understood not all progress is for the better.
Someone was moaning the other day because the new 'free music' deal offered by Virgin offers the musical equivalent of 'ringtones'.

Say someone wants to bulldoze your house to build a new runway for the airport.
That's progress.
Free music? where? i can get free music right now. not sure i understand.


For that model to work, all of the labels need to get together hulu style and work it out that way, but they won't...so not even worth mentioning.
Old 19th June 2009
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
You said that you had to advertise on radio, in print, etc. Those resulted in your high costs...you had to deal with distributors...more cost.

A SELECT FEW PEOPLE CONTROLLED WETHER OR NOT YOUR MUSIC GOT OUT TO PEOPLE.

For someone that is so experienced and astute, i really have to spell a lot of things out for you.

Now you can bypass all of those people, collect more money and your overhead is much lower. PROGRESS.

I feel like I should be charging for the pearls of wisdom I am dropping for you people.
OK listen -- you don't know me. You obviously don't know a lot about me from around here either. I will not be subject to insulting posts. I do not intend to insult and I will not be insulted. Done.
Old 19th June 2009
  #133
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
i suggest you open your eyes, chrisso.
He pointed out one of the big piracy arguments is that the major labels are greedy, out of touch and rip off artists and consumers alike.
He then went on to describe starting a label of his own and how quickly it became difficult.....ergo respect to bigger labels perhaps?
And all you could say was 'false argument'.

I have cutting edge friends who have their own labels, distributing through iTunes and similar.
The margins are tiny, and sometimes a release will just about pay for itself.
All this free sharing is fine in theory. In practice I believe it will leave most musicians without enough income to feed themselves or their families.
We'll see i guess.
Old 19th June 2009
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post

Say someone wants to bulldoze your house to build a new runway for the airport.
That's progress.
BTW, this TOTALLY proves my point.

Thank you chrisso. You whiners are being subjected to intellectual eminent domain.
Old 19th June 2009
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
not an excuse. it's reality.

That's just your so-called "reality". See note above about things not being actually "free". The reality will never be that anybody cares about the fact that you can't get all you want for free.

Oh, again, what is it that's "locked down" - as per your earlier post?
Old 19th June 2009
  #136
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
not sure i understand.
Yeah.

Everytime someone asks you a specific question you act dumb.

Incidentally, I was pointed towards Hulu the other day, but the screen said I didn't live in the right country to download the media.
Old 19th June 2009
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adpz View Post
That's just your so-called "reality". See note above about things not being actually "free". The reality will never be that anybody cares about the fact that you can't get all you want for free.

Oh, again, what is it that's "locked down" - as per your earlier post?
It's the reality of an ENTIRE GENERATION - i see 20 people on gearslutz resisting this but I don't know a single young person that feels the way you do.

If you think you 20 people represent how the world feels about this issue...well...sorry.
Old 19th June 2009
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
BTW, this TOTALLY proves my point.
How?
It proves only that progress is not always good.
Will free or virtually free music be good for consumers? I don't think so, because niche (interesting) artists will have a harder time surviving, whereas hugely successful artists will do just fine - selling ringtones, concert tickets, corporate sponsorship and signature underwear.
Old 19th June 2009
  #139
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and don't give me the "education" answer, again.

YouTube - Jackie chan vs Arnold Schwarzenegger

^
|
|
that is a waste of money and hilarious...and sad.

THIS IS HOW THE INTERNET WORKS.

Like i said, we're not going to put out the sun (as far as global warming goes).

What you guys say doesn't make any sense. You make up some ridiculous solution and pat each other on that back as if it has any bearing on reality.

This woman just lost the case...did ANYTHING change? Resentment towards the "industry" just increased...THAT IS IT.

Thank you.
Old 19th June 2009
  #140
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
It's the reality of an ENTIRE GENERATION - i see 20 people on gearslutz resisting this but I don't know a single young person that feels the way you do.
Exactly.
The point is (and this has been known since man walked on the earth practically), 20 year olds aren't that concerned with the future. They live for today, or at best the day after today.
The 20 or so people you talk about, have a wealth of experience, been round the block several times and are worried about the consequences of letting people download anything they want, anytime they want, for free.
As that is what TPB want to happen.
20 year olds have unprotected sex, drink a litre of vodka in a single sitting, and drive cars when they are out of their minds.
20 year olds really think about consequences? Right
Old 19th June 2009
  #141
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post

THIS IS HOW THE INTERNET WORKS.
Yes, but is that right?

Spammers send you an email to try and cheat your bank account details out of you so they can empty your account.
That's how the internet works, how modern society works, but is it a good thing???
Old 19th June 2009
  #142
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santibanks's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
It's the reality of an ENTIRE GENERATION - i see 20 people on gearslutz resisting this but I don't know a single young person that feels the way you do.

If you think you 20 people represent how the world feels about this issue...well...sorry.
The world changed, the rules changed, the mediums changed, the people and their perceivings changed but the only thing that didn't change is the industry.

L'industry et mort, vive l'industry!

It just happened too fast and they didn;t know what hit them. All the actions the industry took point to that. Well respected marketeers, analysts and visionairies are ignored by the industry because they still believe in an old fashioned model that used to work but is just plain broken. It's their loss because of their own ignorance and selfishness. Too bad. Think of what the world could have been if the industry did follow the rest of the world.

Again:
Seth's Blog: Music lessons

@ Chrisso: the fact that someone here has over 20 years in the music industry doesn't mean anything of significance. Experiences from the past are never a guarantee for the future. In fact, the current state of music industry prooves that these people still don't get it. If they got it, the music industry would flourish. Instead, it's dying and maybe even totally dead…
Old 19th June 2009
  #143
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YouTube - Jackie chan vs Arnold Schwarzenegger

on another note back to this...

oh no jackie chan! the criminals are pirating medicine! oh no, now people might actually be able to afford it!

see the copyright and patent system is a way to prevent the masses from getting information. it keeps the information in the hands of the elite and a select few.

luckily through the internet and through guitar center and m-audio and the likes, now music is available to EVERYONE.

it's a beautiful thing.

Are you guys going to boycott guitar center, btw? they have done just as much harm to the industry, no?
Old 20th June 2009
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainy-taxi View Post
  • If you are remarkable enough for your fanbase, they will believe in you and invest in you if you give them what they want
  • If you listen to your fanbase and get to know them, they will give you much better insight
  • Notice the behaviour that is adopted as "Tribes". A tribe was started by someone who believed in something and it worked. Tribes are natural and are here as long as mankind. Don't ignore them, they are powerful and you can benefit from them
  • And finally, notice that instead of whining and complaining, working your ass off every day, taking well worth risks, doing something remarkable and making a movement is what helped Marillion beeing still alive today. In fact, their new album is coming out this autumn and I go and see them every year. I don't like all of their music, in fact I think their newer albums dissapoint me a bit, but I still believe in them and I always preorder the new album. Just because they are remarkable and worth it.


Now here is an interesting blogpost:
Seth's Blog: Music lessons
Wow, your posts are great! I read Seth Godin, as well.
Old 20th June 2009
  #145
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its crap music that harms the industry


take Mtv for example
Mtv was really great , it started to slide a little with heavy metal
then it got heaver I think rap was kinda the same
it started OK and Innocent then it became garbage
Mtv sucks now as far as I know
if they would have had quality control it probably would still be good
it was ****ty music that made Mtv suck


only so many power cords and disco kick beets backed by depressing lyrics one can take
Old 20th June 2009
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Wow, your posts are great! I read Seth Godin, as well.
Thanks for your kind words. If more people read Seth Godin—and if the industry actually listened when they where talking with Seth—then the world would be a better place.

Its stupid that the music industry actually discussed the matter with Seth but still, they where busy defending their status quo and not listening to what this man (and others) could tell them. That's ignorance and selfishness because it would mean that profits would be cut which resulted in managers that couldn't afford the Audi A8 anymore but had to do with the A6 instead…(imagine that! How horrible is that!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by big country View Post
its crap music that harms the industry


take Mtv for example
Mtv was really great , it started to slide a little with heavy metal
then it got heaver I think rap was kinda the same
it started OK and Innocent then it became garbage
Mtv sucks now as far as I know
if they would have had quality control it probably would still be good
it was ****ty music that made Mtv suck


only so many power cords and disco kick beets backed by depressing lyrics one can take
I'm not debating the quality of the music. if people like it then so be it—me thinks their loss as there is much better stuff—but generally, this kind of stuff isn't remarkable and the profits generated from this muzak already show that it's not remarkable. If it was, then it would still sell today like many of the remarkable music that was made years ago and still sells.
Old 20th June 2009
  #147
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Downloading is wrong and it's illegal and it infringes upon the rights of creative people and the copyright owners.
this is "RIAA vs PIRATE" case and not "MUSICIAN vs PIRATE" case.
RIAA has nothing to do with creative people.
I (as a musician) perceive RIAA (and similar organizations in various countries) as a much bigger robbery and fraud than whole piracy thing.
Their machinations are good for Britney Spears and similar money-greedy fakes and whole industry around them which is mainly about $$$ and has nothing to do with words like "creative" or "art" . . .

i'm against piracy, but i'm happy that the pirate party got into european parliament, because it can move things closer to some equilibrium. kind of counterweight to all that RIAA lobby.

and yes, that woman seems to be totally stupid, but some of the reactions in here are quite malevolent...i think i prefer stupid harmless people to malevolent people.

peace
Old 20th June 2009
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainy-taxi View Post
I'm not debating the quality of the music. if people like it then so be it—me thinks their loss as there is much better stuff—but generally, this kind of stuff isn't remarkable and the profits generated from this muzak already show that it's not remarkable. If it was, then it would still sell today like many of the remarkable music that was made years ago and still sells.

marketing is kinda like brain washing, they are marking ****, **** marketing **** ...

doesn't take a great product if your suckered into buying it
Old 20th June 2009
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainy-taxi View Post
That's ignorance and selfishness because it would mean that profits would be cut which resulted in managers that couldn't afford the Audi A8 anymore but had to do with the A6 instead…(imagine that! How horrible is that!)
Managers are the ones that are going to have it the roughest during this transition. Before, their job was all about the connections they established and using those as leverage...now, those connections are all pretty useless.

Many of them will need to be replaced by savvy web 2.0 types that know how to leverage connections with FANS.

I remember seeing on techcrunch this winter that Britney Spears was putting out advertisements in the harvard university newspaper that she was hiring someone to run her facebook and twitter.

On one hand I thought it was crazy that someone going to Harvard would even consider doing that, but after some thought, it really isn't that crazy - this is how business works now.
Old 20th June 2009
  #150
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
How?
It proves only that progress is not always good.
Will free or virtually free music be good for consumers? I don't think so, because niche (interesting) artists will have a harder time surviving, whereas hugely successful artists will do just fine - selling ringtones, concert tickets, corporate sponsorship and signature underwear.
i don't think that music should be for free, but i'd juse like to note, that the most of the interesting musicians are broke even now, but they do it anyway, because music means everything for them. and btw some cases won by RIAA won't help them. they'll do it anyway. and they'll always survive somehow because their fans are dedicated.
i think that people illegaly download Britney Spears because her "music" is crap
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