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I steal music. Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 22nd April 2009
  #1
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jihadjoe75's Avatar
 

I steal music.

Work is slow right now and I feel like ranting...

I'm a college student who makes $8 an hour for my campuses IT support dept and quite frankly, I cannot afford to pay $10-$20 for a CD. Yep, I'm a pirate and I have been for a very long time. Although I do buy music on occasion. This last month, I've bought two CD's. One being Frontier Ruckus's new album and Cursive's new album, both absolutely worth my $14.

If music is free and I'm short on cash, I'm absolutely going to download it. Even if all of a sudden the main stream music industry started putting out genuinely quality work, I would still not buy it -nor would 98% of the other people my age. Hell, I can personally say that I do not know a single person my age that does not steal music.

Morally, there is little difference from stealing a CD in a store that stealing it online. It's just that when your sitting in your bedroom clicking through TPB or Demonoid it simply does not feel like stealing, especially since you know that your chances of getting caught are very, very low.

It's been said a million times, but the days are changing and the recording industry is not. It's unfortunate considering the amount of people that feed their families through this industry, but maybe in the end of all this people will start focusing on their art, rather than money. If piracy continues, maybe more really great art could come out of it. Art obviously doesn't necessarily feed a family though, but was it ever supposed to?

Now, dear recording industry, if you can give me an unlimited library with lossless songs... hell, I'd probably pay twenty-sum bucks a month for that. Unfortunately, I'm assuming the other %90 of the population that can't recognize the difference between a lossless file and one of those bull**** 128kbps songs you can pay a dollar for on itunes. So yea, in regards to making money with music, we musicians are mostly just effed. I'd start promoting your concerts more and make a few nice t-shirts, cause that's usually what people my age spend money on when they support a band.

In the mean time, I will personally be giving my music away for free, because it is, quite frankly, not worth $10 for an album. I just like it when people listen and enjoy my songs.

Thanks for listening to my rant. It's been a long day.

With love,
Joe Hertler

---

I've read tons of your messages so far and I would first like to say thank you very much for commenting on my rant. I know it came off as inconsiderate and arrogant and I apologize for that. If you'd like, I wrote a response to all of this on page four. It's a bit long, but I'd ask you to read the whole thing if you get the chance. I didn't mean to offend anyone and I hold great admiration for those on this forum who have taken the plunge into professional music and succeeded.

You can read my response by clicking here.

Last edited by jihadjoe75; 24th April 2009 at 07:17 AM.. Reason: to keep shit real
Old 22nd April 2009
  #2
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adpz's Avatar
 

To the OP - I hear your pain - I have been there - but make note of the section on North Korea:

Reprinted, with my permission:


The so-called pro-pirate argument essentially goes back to the fact that tings in a digital medium are basically infinitely copy-able at virtually no incremental cost. This isn't of course true, but let's take that for the moment.

So - it goes - that downloading a copyrighted work and not paying for it is rather just like listening to the radio in that your listening to it is not illegal and you aren't "taking" anything from anyone else.

In practice, of course, this is not quite. To the notion of a digital copy having no cost and no value: even if it cost $1 to produce Britney Spear's last album, no matter how many digital copies were made of it, the cost of those copies would never be zero. Additionally, as we all know, the actual cost of running these industries is much higher - even leaving ALL profit potential aside. So, when you steal a digital copy and excuse yourself because you make the claim that it is worthless, you are trapped by the logic that in fact the item does have a cost - no matter how small. So then, after that, you can put your Pirate flag down and realize that you are really just complaining about the price, cheap bastard.

The only way a digital copy would be free is if no paid work ever went into the product. This obviously occurs but I don't see Pirates sending me emails asking me to torrent recordings of me at my singing lessons. As it is, no industry can support itself by being free - that's really a rule of nature - as there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Perhaps the Pirates should look at a place like North Korea, where involvement in the arts is not renumerative to the individual in any way to get a picture of what it looks like when nobody gets paid to do arts. When's the last time you can across a great North Korean pop tune? Okay, a North Korean tune? No, hmm, well perhaps you know their national anthem . . .

Another way to look at the above: consider my lawn. It is populated with millions of blades of grass, that essentially grow on their own. They have the sun and rain and cost me nothing. I even have to CUT them because there are so many of them. Still, under no circumstances can you come onto my lawn and pick that grass. Why not - because even though the grass has no appreciable value, even though the grass is essentially infinite, it is MY grass. And 100% of jurisdictions recognize a right to private property - yes - even in North Korea you can get arrested for stealing a car.

And THAT's really what the Pirate pups are squealing about - they don't like copyright because they don't like private property and the digital version of it is the one place they can complain about it without being throw in jail.

As I wrote last night, they are obsessed with the need to be able to Remix culture. Their Jesus, Lawrence Lessig, tells them so - and ALL culture must be free so that they can remix. I'll ask it again, show me the great cultural works of this remix generation. After all, they've cracked plenty of stuff already. Where are the great works of art? The great films? The great novels? The great scores? The great performances? The great songs?

They are nowhere to be found except in the heads of these individuals. I used to draw boobs on the pictures in my textbooks in high school - should I submit those to the Museum of Modern Art?

Where is all this great remix stuff?? After all, again, 1000's of profound masterworks are already in the public domain - or did you guys not get that far down the Wiki page - copyright isn't forever you know - just like adolescense . . . C'mon you slackers, turn your hard drive off, put the pizza down, and show me some great works. Oh, and then after you finish that, you can FINALLY get around to explaining to me the added benefits of how not having copyright is going to solve the world's REAL problems.

Another point is their refrain that all of who can't make any money are just going to have to try harder to find another way to do so: firstly, I invite any Pirates to come down to my town where usually on weekdays there are a small group of men protesting because they have no work. Please, go tell them with the same snarky tone what you have told us. Don't worry - well don't worry TOO much b/c you'l still be able to type even without any teeth in your mouth.

Anyway, let's see how forcing musicians to do other things for a living might impact how you feel about the music they make: let's take two restaurants, both that produce the finest French food in the world.

The first one just serves the finest French food - sounds good. The second one serves the finest French food, and also happens to serve the best Chinese food in the world, and also the finest Brazilian churrascaria. Not only that, but the waiters give you excellent lapdances at $9 a minute, give each other lapdances for $5 a minute; the busboys give footrubs for $6 a minute, and the chef will show you his wedding video for .99 a minute. And if that is not your thing, you can watch Premier League for .9 cents a minute on 70" flat-screens and toke on the exquisite hookas that they'll roll up to your tables for .009 cents a minute. So, tell me, where is the food going to be better?

Lastly, all of these skinnies take pleasure in the view that they are providing US with a problem. I can tell you that the much problem you are making is the one you are making for yourself. Do you think your disdain for law, your contempt of the average man, your hatred of society comes to you at no price? It is, apparently, infinitely reproducable, so that shouldn't bother you - but when you make yourself the worst kind of curmudgeon - guess what - other people notice.

Of course, we don't know you yet as you hide in your bedrooms in the anonymity of the internet. But please, for the few of you who work, please go to your jobs and complain loudly about how want thigns that that other people have, and that you don't even want other people to have it. Please, wear your Pirate T-shirts to job interviews. If you happen to have any desire to work in the audio industry, please tell all the prospective employers or clients about how great pirating is.

When you see someone watching a film that they rented, turn it off and show them the pirated version for free. When someone is listening to a tune on their iPod, please turn it off and download a pirated version for them. When you go on a date - no, watching Fast and Furious 1 2 and 3 does not count - please tell the unlucky girl all about the great society that awaits theives like yourselves.

Then, if you have done a really superlative job, once you have turned 30 and have no job, no girlfriend, no money, and no children, I will send you - at my cost - the collected works of Erich Fromm. Of course, you may have saved yourself from personal damnation by having read these works about how an individual can relate to a modern society without sacrificing their humanity, but I guess they don't do torrents of books that lack some T&A. Oh well, life's unfair.
Old 22nd April 2009
  #3
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JustinAiken's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by adpz View Post
but I guess they don't do torrents of books. Oh well, life's unfair.
Yeah they do; sometimes I'll use them when I suddenly feel like starting a book at night and the library/bookstores are closed...
Old 22nd April 2009
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by jihadjoe75 View Post
It's unfortunate considering the amount of people that feed their families through this industry, but maybe in the end of all this people will start focusing on their art, rather than money.
Busting ass to pay the bills with a day job leaves precious little time to focus on art, promote projects, etc.
Old 22nd April 2009
  #5
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adpz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinAiken View Post
Yeah they do; sometimes I'll use them when I suddenly feel like starting a book at night and the library/bookstores are closed...
It wouldn't be Erich Fromm BTW?
Old 22nd April 2009
  #6
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Nope, never heard of him...
Old 22nd April 2009
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by jihadjoe75 View Post
[If piracy continues, maybe more really great art could come out of it. Art obviously doesn't necessarily feed a family though, but was it ever supposed to?
Nearly every piece of great art in the history of man was paid for, so no, I don't think great art will come out of the continuation of piracy.

There are plenty of ways to check out bands you think you might be interested in without downloading an illegal copy of their record.
Old 22nd April 2009
  #8
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adpz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinAiken View Post
Nope, never heard of him...
By the way, JA, I've said it before and I'll say it again - sharing and theft are not the same thing - a four-year-old knows that. If you are a sharing and caring individual who wants to read a book when the library is closed, then society will still be better off even if you torrent the book. Don't think all the anti-pirates want to stop people from sharing. I don't have a problem with that; I have a problem with people who want to live their whole lives as parasites and want me to do the same.
Old 22nd April 2009
  #9
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abtech's Avatar
 

To the original poster:

I was a poor college student for several years and could barely afford to purchase a record every couple of months. I was working two jobs to pay for grad school and couldn't think about luxuries like new audio equipment, more records etc.

The music industry didn't give me a pass back then because times were hard, so I listened to the radio. That's right, the radio and even though the fidelity wasn't the greatest and there were tons of commercials, I could still listen to music without having to resort to theft.

If you feel entitled to break the law because you can't afford a luxury, then I'm at a loss because that is just wrong no matter how you rationalize it.
Old 22nd April 2009
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by abtech View Post
If you feel entitled to break the law because you can't afford a luxury, then I'm at a loss because that is just wrong no matter how you rationalize it.
+1thumbsup

Very well-worded.
Old 22nd April 2009
  #11
To the OP:
I bought hundreds of albums while a college student and working for $5.25 an hour at $hit jobs. If it's really important to you, you'll budget for it, or you'll work extra hours. You don't have to have a cell phone, you don't have to eat overpriced fast food out, you don't need to own a car (well, in many locales), you don't need...

It's a choice you make. You don't have an inherent right to listen to any recording you want, whether it's easily available through means that you admit you know are illegal.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #12
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Batchainpuller78's Avatar
 

Take your mousehand put it between the door and slam hard.

How about all the kids from generations before you, that did not have free downloadable music, plenty of my friends have worked up a substantial LP & CD collection just by starting to buy vinyl and cd's at school and gradually built that up during their lifetime.
you would save up some bucks and once in a while you would go to the recordstore and go see what you could find interesting and buy.
This would be quite the adventure and It gave a thrill to buy Lp's and Cd's, If you were lucky there would be a cool storeowner or cool people that could tell you a lot about music and give great tips if they would see what you bought and got to know you.

maybe moderation in consumption will make you appreciate art more?
Old 23rd April 2009
  #13
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adpz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78 View Post
maybe moderation in consumption will make you appreciate art more?

A Top Ten point on this whole PB forum. Kudos.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #14
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Chaellus's Avatar
Stealing of anything is totatlly unacceptable especially music if you cant buy a cd thats $10 a pop then thats pretty pathetic....you can always get what you want if you put in extra hours and work for it...all you little hooligans think you are entitled to this stuff and ill be the first to tell you that your not....artists didnt spend couple tens of thousands of dollars for you to rip their music off. tutttutttuttstike
Old 23rd April 2009
  #15
MrT
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MrT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78 View Post
How about all the kids from generations before you, that did not have free downloadable music
Will someone please think of the children heh... sorry that's all I thought when I read that.

Downloading does not equal stealing in the same way as shoplifting does. Sorry, just plain doesn't. Not saying it's the best thing ever but whatever... I felt lucky yesterday when I went to a record store and the guy gave me 3 Sound FX records, The Porgie and Bess soundtrack and an old Tom Jones album for free. Talk about music having no worth

And just you guys wait till the generation that's now coming up in high school matures. Most have NEVER purchased music or heard an uncompressed song! At least I can still remember making cassette tapes of my friends records... or when I wanted to listen to something in my hot rod 87 taurus
Old 23rd April 2009
  #16
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i think it's just about human nature more than anything. i have the means to go out and purchase every single cd that i have downloaded but because i don't have to i just won't. when i was growing up and i had to i would no question. until they make stricter laws about piracy i'm practically choosing what record label/artist to donate to every time i buy an album. i've never been a big donater...and if you going to create some sort of preview don't let it be the whole album because then you've already got too much benefit to pay the cost. it's like if they let you go into a movie then asked you to pay after you watched it. you might pay sometimes and might not other times if you didn't like the movie. but if you have to pay i advance no matter what = a lot more sales. it's all about the cost / benefit ratio.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #17
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Aaron Miller's Avatar
Quote:
Art obviously doesn't necessarily feed a family though, but was it ever supposed to?
This gets right to the heart of this guy's argument, and it's indicative of an assumption that a lot of piracy supporters hold: they seem to think that music--and art more generally speaking--is somehow fundamentally different from other products and services that one might buy. Is fashion intended to feed a family? Can you steal clothing? Is technology intended to feed a family? Can you steal industrial trade secrets? Is sport intended to put bread on the table? Can you steal tickets to a game?

The arguement seems to be that if the ultimate goal of someonewho creates X is simply to create a better X (and not make money), then he or she has no right to charge for X. What a load of crap.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #18
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pashatom's Avatar
 

Quote:
Even if all of a sudden the main stream music industry started putting out genuinely quality work, I would still not buy it -nor would 98% of the other people my age. Hell, I can personally say that I do not know a single person my age that does not steal music.
Wow - I didn't realize things had got that bad. Still, at least you DO use the word "steal", AND you are honest.....honest about your intention about continuing stealing.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #19
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jimmydeluxe's Avatar
____

So yea, in regards to making money with music, we musicians are mostly just effed. I'd start promoting your concerts more and make a few nice t-shirts, cause that's usually what people my age spend money on when they support a band.

In the mean time, I will personally be giving my music away for free, because it is, quite frankly, not worth $10 for an album. I just like it when people listen and enjoy my songs.

____



I've been getting paid to make music since I was 12. Should I, and countless others that have spent thousands of dollars, hours, and miles to be able to succeed suffer because YOUR music isn't worth, "$10 for an album?"

Should playing shows and making t-shirts be the only way to make money in music? Did you first hear of Cursive, etc. at a show, or on a cd? If it was a show, I bet you went b/c a friend heard a cd, then went to a show...The, "touring and merch," argument is sooo lame, considering NO new acts make money on the road for the first few years--how are THEY supposed to get a start or survive? Ever been on tour? No? Shocker.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #20
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pashatom's Avatar
 

Quote:
The argument seems to be that
There is no argument, only an excuse. Also the talk about "filesharing" is total rubbish because if you share something then there is only ONE of it.

Music is not a rabbit that breeds.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #21
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jihadjoe75 View Post
Work is slow right now and I feel like ranting...

I'm a college student who makes $8 an hour for my campuses IT support dept and quite frankly, I cannot afford to pay $10-$20 for a CD. Yep, I'm a pirate and I have been for a very long time. Although I do buy music on occasion. This last month, I've bought two CD's. One being Frontier Ruckus's new album and Cursive's new album, both absolutely worth my $14.

If music is free and I'm short on cash, I'm absolutely going to download it. Even if all of a sudden the main stream music industry started putting out genuinely quality work, I would still not buy it -nor would 98% of the other people my age. Hell, I can personally say that I do not know a single person my age that does not steal music.

Morally, there is little difference from stealing a CD in a store that stealing it online. It's just that when your sitting in your bedroom clicking through TPB or Demonoid it simply does not feel like stealing, especially since you know that your chances of getting caught are very, very low.

It's been said a million times, but the days are changing and the recording industry is not. It's unfortunate considering the amount of people that feed their families through this industry, but maybe in the end of all this people will start focusing on their art, rather than money. If piracy continues, maybe more really great art could come out of it. Art obviously doesn't necessarily feed a family though, but was it ever supposed to?

Now, dear recording industry, if you can give me an unlimited library with lossless songs... hell, I'd probably pay twenty-sum bucks a month for that. Unfortunately, I'm assuming the other %90 of the population that can't recognize the difference between a lossless file and one of those bull**** 128kbps songs you can pay a dollar for on itunes. So yea, in regards to making money with music, we musicians are mostly just effed. I'd start promoting your concerts more and make a few nice t-shirts, cause that's usually what people my age spend money on when they support a band.

In the mean time, I will personally be giving my music away for free, because it is, quite frankly, not worth $10 for an album. I just like it when people listen and enjoy my songs.

Thanks for listening to my rant. It's been a long day.

With love,
Joe Hertler
I'd respect you more if you simply said "I steal music". Because you'd just as easily buy Tshirts from the dude bootlegging them out side of a show for cheaper than they are inside. Just say you steal period. Don't offer a reason.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jihadjoe75 View Post
Work is slow right now and I feel like ranting...

If music is free and I'm short on cash, I'm absolutely going to download it.


With love,
Joe Hertler
I have had a good life working in the music industry. You never will, and all because of people just like you. Not a put-down, just an observation.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #23
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ripper's Avatar
 

To the OP:

Firstly, you said you'd pay $20 a month for unlimited, uncompressed music...

so you DO have $20 a month to spend on music! Hell, that's more than a lot of people have, ESPECIALLY muscicans trying to make an honest living while having a life, even a family, perhaps.

Secondly, I don't know (or care) what you're going to college for, but I do hope you're planning on "working" for free after you graduate!

Thirdly, I hope to hell you're not getting in grants or goverment insured loans for your education.

That money would be better spent supporting the arts, don't you think?

Or should whinging "the-world-owes-me" types who don't want to pay for music get public support as they do their vampire bit to the arts community?
Old 23rd April 2009
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78 View Post
.

maybe moderation in consumption will make you appreciate art more?

Truth.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #25
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To the OP -

It can be about the art. However, without any income, who is going to buy the gear? Who is going to develop the software/gear/etc? How are the people spending their time making the music going to live/eat? Its nice to think of a world where we sit in our project studios making music simply for the purpose of sharing our art with the world, but unless we all win the lottery, that's just not going to happen.

Were Beethoven and Mozart great artists? Of course.
Did they compose a lot of very artful pieces for the sole purpose of getting a paycheck? Of course.

Just because its easy to get music for free, or because it doesn't "feel like stealing" doesn't make it right or beneficial for the industry. If you don't have the money to buy product X, then you don't get it until you have the money. Its no different that this product can be cloned. With that logic, it should be OK to steal MatLab and WinMLS licenses just because technically you are "copying" and not removing ownership.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #26
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Black Seal's Avatar
 

Quick!

Quick someone grab the kid some tampons, midol, and vagisil because he might be having a crisis. I'm all busting all out inside with sympathy for his point of view.

If this posts seems silly then 'cause it was supposed to be. Happy trolling my friend. I hope this doesn't take you away from X-box too long because I know that's the reality with which you're most comfortable.


Have a nice day

Love,
Perry
Old 23rd April 2009
  #27
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Denny McNerney's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78 View Post
Take your mousehand put it between the door and slam hard.

How about all the kids from generations before you, that did not have free downloadable music, plenty of my friends have worked up a substantial LP & CD collection just by starting to buy vinyl and cd's at school and gradually built that up during their lifetime.
you would save up some bucks and once in a while you would go to the recordstore and go see what you could find interesting and buy.
This would be quite the adventure and It gave a thrill to buy Lp's and Cd's, If you were lucky there would be a cool storeowner or cool people that could tell you a lot about music and give great tips if they would see what you bought and got to know you.

maybe moderation in consumption will make you appreciate art more?
thank you. really.

thanks from one of the kids from a few generations before him, who saved up every penny to buy a record, and support the artists that moved him.

and it was worth every dime.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #28
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tazman's Avatar
 

To the OP, so I assume you own a car and I assume you would have no problem if someone, with a poorly paying job, took it cause they thought it was ok looking. Yeah, if they liked a car they would buy it, but for now they'd just rather steal yours. obviously you're ok with it? Right?
Old 23rd April 2009
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny McNerney View Post
thank you. really.

thanks from one of the kids from a few generations before him, who saved up every penny to buy a record, and support the artists that moved him.

and it was worth every dime.
Absolutely. My childhood was amazing, I had a tiny record player and I saved enough every week to buy one single, and played it to death. I was entranced with music, I cared for my records and listened to them until I wore them out, whenever I could afford an album I put it on and sat there and listened to it end to end, and now and then I saved enough to buy a new needle. Read ever liner note. Best time of my life.
Old 23rd April 2009
  #30
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Denny McNerney's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrT View Post
Downloading does not equal stealing in the same way as shoplifting does. Sorry, just plain doesn't. Not saying it's the best thing ever but whatever... I felt lucky yesterday when I went to a record store and the guy gave me 3 Sound FX records, The Porgie and Bess soundtrack and an old Tom Jones album for free. Talk about music having no worth
well, that was so well said, Mr.T.

really eloquent.
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