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DP Stretch Problems with Audio Examples
Old 27th February 2019
  #1
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DP Stretch Problems with Audio Examples

Here is a brief excerpt of DP10 with NO STRETCH enabled following the click as it should.


Dropbox - NO STRETCH.m4a


Now, all I have done is enabled Stretch on the reference track.

Track no longer stays with the click.

Dropbox - WITH STRETCH.m4a


This was the whole reason I wanted to go to DP now, because Cubase can't do what Logic and PT do, which is allow you to slow down a track, record difficult overdubs, then go back to normal speed.

But I am seeing that DP cannot even stay with the ref tempo map and click at normal speed once STRETCH is enabled.

Any ideas?
Old 27th February 2019
  #2
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As far as I can tell, what "stretch" does in DP10 is give you the ability to grab individual beats and drag them around within a soundbite. That's useful if you want fix a late bass note but it's not the same thing as re-conforming to a new tempo.

If I'm understanding you correctly you want to change a sequence tempo and have the audio follow that tempo change. Is that right? If so I don't think "stretch" is the tool you're looking for.

If audio was recorded to a click in DP the audio should have embedded tempo information that matches the sequence tempo. If you've imported audio into DP and then created a tempo map around that audio, the sequence tempo may match the audio but the soundbite itself may have no embedded tempo information.

In your first audio example the DP click matches the audio. So to make sure the correct tempo info is embedded in the soundbite, select the audio, go to the Audio menu, and choose Soundbite Tempo>Copy Sequence Tempo to Soundbite. This will embed the current sequence tempo information into the selected audio.

Now change your sequence tempo.

DP does have a settable preference to automatically change soundbite tempo when sequence tempo changes. I keep that turned off. If the preference is off, changing the sequence tempo will now put the audio tempo out of sync.

So..

Select the audio, go back to the Audio menu>Soundbite Tempo>Adjust Soundbites to Sequence Tempo. DP will now rebuild the audio to match the new sequence tempo. DP10 does give you a variety of quality settings for tempo adjustment so you may also want to check that out.

Any luck?

Dave
Old 27th February 2019
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
As far as I can tell, what "stretch" does in DP10 is give you the ability to grab individual beats and drag them around within a soundbite. That's useful if you want fix a late bass note but it's not the same thing as re-conforming to a new tempo.

If I'm understanding you correctly you want to change a sequence tempo and have the audio follow that tempo change. Is that right? If so I don't think "stretch" is the tool you're looking for.

If audio was recorded to a click in DP the audio should have embedded tempo information that matches the sequence tempo. If you've imported audio into DP and then created a tempo map around that audio, the sequence tempo may match the audio but the soundbite itself may have no embedded tempo information.

In your first audio example the DP click matches the audio. So to make sure the correct tempo info is embedded in the soundbite, select the audio, go to the Audio menu, and choose Soundbite Tempo>Copy Sequence Tempo to Soundbite. This will embed the current sequence tempo information into the selected audio.

Now change your sequence tempo.

DP does have a settable preference to automatically change soundbite tempo when sequence tempo changes. I keep that turned off. If the preference is off, changing the sequence tempo will now put the audio tempo out of sync.

So..

Select the audio, go back to the Audio menu>Soundbite Tempo>Adjust Soundbites to Sequence Tempo. DP will now rebuild the audio to match the new sequence tempo. DP10 does give you a variety of quality settings for tempo adjustment so you may also want to check that out.

Any luck?

Dave
When I wrote to MOTU directly, before the release of DP10, I was told that "yes" the new stretch feature would finally allow DP to do what Logic and PT can.

Which is, put a file in stretch mode, now change tempo freely to any other tempo. That's all I'm trying to do.

So my workflow for this example was:

1 Record the audio in PT.

2 Tempo Map in PT (because for now I'm faster in PT at this than DP).

3 Export a midi file from PT to DP.

4 Export the audio from PT to DP.

In DP, the midi file gives DP the tempo and it follows it fine (first example).

Enabling stretch (without changing ANYTHING) ....gives us the 2nd example. This can't be right.

Would be great to get clarity once and for all from MOTU on this. Really decides whether I purchase or not. I love DP but, not if the new feature I was waiting for either doesn't work, or won't allow what PT and Logic do.
Old 28th February 2019
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
When I wrote to MOTU directly, before the release of DP10, I was told that "yes" the new stretch feature would finally allow DP to do what Logic and PT can.

Which is, put a file in stretch mode, now change tempo freely to any other tempo. That's all I'm trying to do.

So my workflow for this example was:

1 Record the audio in PT.

2 Tempo Map in PT (because for now I'm faster in PT at this than DP).

3 Export a midi file from PT to DP.

4 Export the audio from PT to DP.

In DP, the midi file gives DP the tempo and it follows it fine (first example).

Enabling stretch (without changing ANYTHING) ....gives us the 2nd example. This can't be right.

Would be great to get clarity once and for all from MOTU on this. Really decides whether I purchase or not. I love DP but, not if the new feature I was waiting for either doesn't work, or won't allow what PT and Logic do.
Got it!

In DP9 and prior you could conform audio tempo to sequence tempo. That did involve DP making new audio for the new tempo. DP10 adds something new.

DP9 and prior had a preference setting that would conform audio automatically if the sequence tempo didn't match. When I went looking for that in 10 it wasn't there anymore!

So I watched the stretch movie at the MOTU site. In the movie not only does the audio conform to sequence tempo, but you can grab beats in the track and drag them.

This wasn't working for me.

I set the track view filter to Stretch and I could see the beats but I couldn't grab them. If I changed sequence tempo the audio didn't change.

Finally figured out what I was doing wrong.

You have to enable Stretch mode for the audio track. This is not done by changing the view filter menu. In the Sequence Editor, to the right of the green Play button for each audio track, is a down arrow button that opens a menu. From that menu you can enable Stretch. If Stretch is checked, changing the sequence tempo will automatically conform the audio in the track. That fixed it for me.

I also found this on page 141 of the DP User Guide.

As far as I can tell there is no way to enable Stretch on multiple tracks with a single click. I might be missing something but I had to enable Stretch on each track one at a time.

Dave
Old 28th February 2019
  #5
Deleted 9895bca
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
As far as I can tell there is no way to enable Stretch on multiple tracks with a single click. I might be missing something but I had to enable Stretch on each track one at a time.

Dave
One thing you can do is show the Stretch column in the Tracks view and then click-drag to enable multiple tracks.
Old 28th February 2019
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 9895bca View Post
One thing you can do is show the Stretch column in the Tracks view and then click-drag to enable multiple tracks.
Excellent! Thank you for the tip.

Dave
Old 28th February 2019
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
Got it!

In DP9 and prior you could conform audio tempo to sequence tempo. That did involve DP making new audio for the new tempo. DP10 adds something new.

DP9 and prior had a preference setting that would conform audio automatically if the sequence tempo didn't match. When I went looking for that in 10 it wasn't there anymore!

So I watched the stretch movie at the MOTU site. In the movie not only does the audio conform to sequence tempo, but you can grab beats in the track and drag them.

This wasn't working for me.

I set the track view filter to Stretch and I could see the beats but I couldn't grab them. If I changed sequence tempo the audio didn't change.

Finally figured out what I was doing wrong.

You have to enable Stretch mode for the audio track. This is not done by changing the view filter menu. In the Sequence Editor, to the right of the green Play button for each audio track, is a down arrow button that opens a menu. From that menu you can enable Stretch. If Stretch is checked, changing the sequence tempo will automatically conform the audio in the track. That fixed it for me.

I also found this on page 141 of the DP User Guide.

As far as I can tell there is no way to enable Stretch on multiple tracks with a single click. I might be missing something but I had to enable Stretch on each track one at a time.

Dave
I will look into this today...but it makes ZERO sense to have a ENABLE button on the tracks overview for STRETCH if it doesn't work. What does the button do then lol?

Your tip yesterday about conforming sequence tempo to the audio file DID seem to work, and will probably work fine for me if the actual STRETCH feature doesn't (which it should!)....will check back late tonight here...thanks Dave...
Old 28th February 2019
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
I will look into this today...but it makes ZERO sense to have a ENABLE button on the tracks overview for STRETCH if it doesn't work. What does the button do then lol?
The Enable button works for me. I hadn't noticed it before because I do most of my work in the Sequence Editor.

In the Sequence editor there is a view layer menu that can display the stretch view of the audio. But this menu doesn't enable Stretch for the track. If you want to enable Stretch from within the Sequence Editor you have to check that item in the menu to the right of the view layer menu.

As I mentioned, when I went to check this function in DP I got the same symptoms you describe. However when I watched the tutorial movie and checked the manual I was able to find the solution.

I think this is one of those things where there is no perfect fix. I am one of those people that does not want automatic tempo conforming to be on by default. And I wouldn't want it to happen by accident just because I selected the Stretch view layer. So I guess it's reasonable for one user to say they'd like Stretch on by default or when you choose it in the View Layer. I'd be the user that didn't want that behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
Your tip yesterday about conforming sequence tempo to the audio file DID seem to work, and will probably work fine for me if the actual STRETCH feature doesn't (which it should!)....will check back late tonight here...thanks Dave...
Most welcome!

Yup. The manual does state that for stretch tempo conforming to work, the audio has to have accurate tempo information embedded. That makes complete sense to me.

I'll bet you're going to get tempo conforming working now (I certainly hope so!) Let us know how it works out.

Dave
Old 28th February 2019
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
The Enable button works for me. I hadn't noticed it before because I do most of my work in the Sequence Editor.

In the Sequence editor there is a view layer menu that can display the stretch view of the audio. But this menu doesn't enable Stretch for the track. If you want to enable Stretch from within the Sequence Editor you have to check that item in the menu to the right of the view layer menu.

As I mentioned, when I went to check this function in DP I got the same symptoms you describe. However when I watched the tutorial movie and checked the manual I was able to find the solution.

I think this is one of those things where there is no perfect fix. I am one of those people that does not want automatic tempo conforming to be on by default. And I wouldn't want it to happen by accident just because I selected the Stretch view layer. So I guess it's reasonable for one user to say they'd like Stretch on by default or when you choose it in the View Layer. I'd be the user that didn't want that behavior.

Most welcome!

Yup. The manual does state that for stretch tempo conforming to work, the audio has to have accurate tempo information embedded. That makes complete sense to me.

I'll bet you're going to get tempo conforming working now (I certainly hope so!) Let us know how it works out.

Dave
Dave, just to be clear (mind is moving slowly today)....

Are you saying you had success simply enabling the stretch option in the Tracks Overview window? Because that is what I did and resulted in the track NOT being in sync. I think I got things working by doing you said yesterday (applying sequence tempo to soundbite) THEN enabling Stretch. At that point I was able to go to the TEMPO slider, put the BPM way down, and all was good in life.

Reporting back tonight, thx
Old 28th February 2019
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
Are you saying you had success simply enabling the stretch option in the Tracks Overview window?
Actually I first found it in the Sequence editor. Never thought to look in the Tracks window. And yes, once it was enabled changing the sequence tempo properly changed the audio tempo.

But the tracks I'm using were recorded to a DP click, so they already had accurate embedded tempo information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
Because that is what I did and resulted in the track NOT being in sync. I think I got things working by doing you said yesterday (applying sequence tempo to soundbite) THEN enabling Stretch. At that point I was able to go to the TEMPO slider, put the BPM way down, and all was good in life.
That makes sense to me. If you didn't have accurate tempo info in the audio I wouldn't expect tempo conforming to work correctly.

Dave
Old 28th February 2019
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
Actually I first found it in the Sequence editor. Never thought to look in the Tracks window. And yes, once it was enabled changing the sequence tempo properly changed the audio tempo.

But the tracks I'm using were recorded to a DP click, so they already had accurate embedded tempo information.



That makes sense to me. If you didn't have accurate tempo info in the audio I wouldn't expect tempo conforming to work correctly.

Dave
Yes, I think this was something I didn't think of because it's not necessary in PT or Logic.

So, I record some audio in PT, tempo map it manually, that's all PT needs to know. If I want to slow that down (or all tracks in the session).....I put the track (s) in Elastic Audio mode, now I can disengage the conductor track and play at any speed. So it seems PT looks at the tempo map for all tempo info, not what's in the audio track itself...
Old 28th February 2019
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
Yes, I think this was something I didn't think of because it's not necessary in PT or Logic.

So, I record some audio in PT, tempo map it manually, that's all PT needs to know. If I want to slow that down (or all tracks in the session).....I put the track (s) in Elastic Audio mode, now I can disengage the conductor track and play at any speed. So it seems PT looks at the tempo map for all tempo info, not what's in the audio track itself...
Understood. I'm going to guess that ProTools just assumes you want the sequence tempo to be the audio tempo.

Different ways of cat skinning.

Why would anyone want to skin a cat?

Dave
Old 1st March 2019
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
Understood. I'm going to guess that ProTools just assumes you want the sequence tempo to be the audio tempo.

Different ways of cat skinning.

Why would anyone want to skin a cat?

Dave
Ha no idea, thanks Dave.

I think this is solved, but gee as soon as I solve one problem I discover another couple...

1 It seems like the only way to switch over to the mix console and see everything (all tracks) is to select the tracks first in the track overview. How irritating lol
Although sometimes they all show up anyway even if not selected. I got to get this figured out.

But the big one for more yesterday was finding out DP won't let you bounce to a different sample rate? I do the sessions at 48 but bounce the final mix to 44.1 in other programs, seems like no way to do this in DP.

Tell me I'm wrong....PLEASE
Old 1st March 2019
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
Ha no idea, thanks Dave.
Most welcome. There's more to discuss about custom tempo maps, but if you're working for now we'll leave it there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
I think this is solved, but gee as soon as I solve one problem I discover another couple...
A problem is something that can't be solved. You grasshopper, have been running into obstacles (things that can be solved). Totally understandable seeing that you're used to other programs. But be patient and if you want the best from DP you'll get there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
1 It seems like the only way to switch over to the mix console and see everything (all tracks) is to select the tracks first in the track overview. How irritating lol
Although sometimes they all show up anyway even if not selected. I got to get this figured out.
A very common question and there is a specific answer.

The logic (ha!) is that if you are in say, the Tracks window, whatever is selected there will be what shows up if you switch the Consolidated view to the Mixer. If you think about it, that makes good sense, especially if you are dealing with hundreds of tracks in the sequence (not uncommon for film scoring).

If nothing is selected in the Tracks window (Command-D to deselect all), switching to the Mixer will display the tracks that were last visible in the mixer. Aha! That makes sense too.

And, there is a very nifty set of tools under the View menu. Not only are there preset Track Layout settings, but you can save custom Track Layouts and assign hot keys. Let's say you just want the string section or just the vocals with effects returns. You can save these Track Layouts and then recall them in any edit window with a keystroke.

And if you use multiple monitors, having the Mixer as a separate, static, stand-alone window also works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
But the big one for more yesterday was finding out DP won't let you bounce to a different sample rate? I do the sessions at 48 but bounce the final mix to 44.1 in other programs, seems like no way to do this in DP.

Tell me I'm wrong....PLEASE
Nope, you're right. Back to Garageband with you.

You are correct that Bouncing doesn't include the option for sample rate conversion. For that you will need one more step (alas). In the Bounce options you can choose to import the bounce file to a sequence track or the Soundbites window. Choose to import to the Soundbites window.

Bounce.

Go to the Soundbites window and view by Time Created. At the bottom of the list is your bounce file. Select and from the Soundbites window mini-menu (You do know about mini-menus, right?) choose Convert.

Incidentally you can select multiple soundbites for conversion and each one will be rendered as a separate file in a single operation. For my workflow (mastering CDs for example) this has been a very powerful option.

Dave
Old 2nd March 2019
  #15
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if I follow the steps in this video as soon as I switch to conductor mode the sound bites all are out of alignment.
YouTube
Old 2nd March 2019
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
if I follow the steps in this video as soon as I switch to conductor mode the sound bites all are out of alignment.
YouTube
In order for the audio to automatically conform to tempo a number of conditions have to be met.

Accurate tempo information must be embedded in the audio. One way to check this is to play the DP metronome along with your music. If the metronome matches the music, that means the sequence tempo matches the music. To be sure the sequence tempo is embedded in the audio, select the audio, go to the Audio menu>Soundbite Tempo>Copy Sequence Tempo to Soundbites.

Stretch mode must be enabled for the tracks. This is what initially stumped me. The easiest way to check that Stretch mode is enabled is to look in the Tracks window for the "STC" column. Make sure that's enabled for all tracks.

Any luck?

Dave
Old 2nd March 2019
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
In order for the audio to automatically conform to tempo a number of conditions have to be met.

Accurate tempo information must be embedded in the audio. One way to check this is to play the DP metronome along with your music. If the metronome matches the music, that means the sequence tempo matches the music. To be sure the sequence tempo is embedded in the audio, select the audio, go to the Audio menu>Soundbite Tempo>Copy Sequence Tempo to Soundbites.

Stretch mode must be enabled for the tracks. This is what initially stumped me. The easiest way to check that Stretch mode is enabled is to look in the Tracks window for the "STC" column. Make sure that's enabled for all tracks.

Any luck?

Dave
I have a track that doesn't include audio that was not recorded to a click track just like in video and when I follow the steps in the video it doesn't work when I switch to conductor track the tracks slide all over the place. If those aren't the steps that you need to follow like it shows in the video than they need to update the video
Old 2nd March 2019
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
In order for the audio to automatically conform to tempo a number of conditions have to be met.

Accurate tempo information must be embedded in the audio. One way to check this is to play the DP metronome along with your music. If the metronome matches the music, that means the sequence tempo matches the music. To be sure the sequence tempo is embedded in the audio, select the audio, go to the Audio menu>Soundbite Tempo>Copy Sequence Tempo to Soundbites.

Stretch mode must be enabled for the tracks. This is what initially stumped me. The easiest way to check that Stretch mode is enabled is to look in the Tracks window for the "STC" column. Make sure that's enabled for all tracks.

Any luck?

Dave
Well holy cow now I'm getting somewhere. I just had to copy sequence tempo and now it's not moving.
Old 21st March 2019
  #19
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But how do I set tempo or tap tempo without stretching it all over the place. Other daws you disable stretch but dp doesn't work like that.
Old 22nd March 2019
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
But how do I set tempo or tap tempo without stretching it all over the place. Other daws you disable stretch but dp doesn't work like that.
You can turn off stretch. You can lock the track so that tempo changes don't change the SMPTE position of events in the track. Both options are found in the Tracks window.

Dave
Old 22nd March 2019
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
You can turn off stretch. You can lock the track so that tempo changes don't change the SMPTE position of events in the track. Both options are found in the Tracks window.

Dave
Yeah I think the lock tracks option is what I needed
Old 22nd March 2019
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
Yeah I think the lock tracks option is what I needed
It's a powerful feature. In film scoring you may have dialog and foley tracks that should never change in relation to SMPTE, but you may want other MIDI and audio tracks to follow tempo changes.

Generally if you are creating original content from scratch within DP you won't run into tempo problems. In your case you have imported audio that was created outside this DP session. So there's an extra step or so to get it straightened out.

Dave
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