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What are your biggest wishes in DPX?
Old 21st February 2018
  #1
Lives for gear
What are your biggest wishes in DPX?

So my expectation that MOTU were going to release DP 10 or X soon was squashed with no Alpha teaser at NAMM. I'm pretty sure in general it's hard to get what you want from developers in terms of new features but what are your top choices? Like most power users I have at least 25 things I want, so to keep some hope of common choices popping up, limiting it to a few instead of dozens makes sense.

In no order:

1. VCA faders - just for the fact that it's very easy to ride a mix into the red without them, then lose mix cohesion when lowering volume in any other way.

2. More choices for bouncing- Reaper is the model here, Reaper has Stems bouncing, bouncing of selected tracks to separate files. You can select master buses for drums, melody etc. with renaming tags before you bounce. So you can have it name each file with it's track name, then then project name, time, or BPM or anything really. This is a HUGE time saver for me.

3. GUI/UI improvements- Not like Logic where they forgot their "legacy" instruments, but overall. I'm a big fan of the way DP looks, but before modern HD (and above) LED screens. How long have people complained about the ridiculously small V's for volume points in CC automation lanes? MX4 is tiny and as nasty looking as Logics EXS24, some fonts make 20 year olds squint, and this isn't a kids DAW.

4. Object oriented MIDI Editing- You can cut, slice, merge etc. audio in DP but all MIDI is one long stream, this is cool in the MIDI editor, you never have to worry about selecting all the MIDI on a track to see it, but it's a PITA in the Track window, where anyone whose been using DP forever knows to go for bulk editing. Parsed MIDI is a halfway point that hasn't been a reasonable alternative for years, it's almost never helps me, no matter what setting I give it in Preferences. I can see why MOTU don't want to deal with the Sequence Editor and object oriented MIDI, but the Track window is sorely needing it at the least. With the Sequence window a switch between the current MIDI editor view and objects is totally possible, again this is how Reaper does it. This goes all the way down to the way looping is portrayed onscreen, and the way it's implemented in DP is from the time that squinting 20 year old was born.

5. MIDI improvements in General- Every other DAW has the ability to restrain MIDI to say C1-C4 on a MIDI track, DP cannot do this. Every single other DAW allows you to choose between absolute and relative snapping to the grid when moving notes. MPE is the future, DP is in the short bus list of DAWs that require 16 plus tracks to record MIDI from an MPE device. DP has absolutely stellar legacy MIDI editing features, and hasn't kept up for over a decade now. I didn't even get to Cubase with note expression and Logic with custom articulation controls.

6. Single tracks for the software instrument and MIDI- I concede, I don't like working in DP on anything involving a lot of track automation not because DP is bad at track automation, but because 8 software instrument tracks is 16 onscreen, 20 is 40 etc. I get that V-Racks are amazing for people scoring films but they aren't a lot of fun when it comes to working with anything but samplers with scripting etc. I just end up working in V-Racks to get rid of the clutter, then end up not doing a lot of automation. The issue of losing track automation if someone was to want to port to a V-Rack a software instrument already exists so...

7. Improved bussing options- DP has great bussing, and years behind UX for bussing. In Live, Logic, and Reaper, along with many others, to bus x amount of tracks to another is really really easy, it's also really powerful. For instance bouncing only the master bus in Reaper does not result in an empty file. You literally can click drag in the arrangement page of Reaper to bus a track to another. Logic is as easy with VCA faders. MOTU needs to grab this and run!

I'm stopping here, so we might have some common wishes. I'm posting a lot of these types of threads I know, but I think it's great to have a forum where I can. Reaper is deep, and MOTU could learn from them. DP will always be easier to grasp and adheres to UI standards a lot more, but Reaper is killing it when it comes to customizing a workflow to your needs, something DP is good at until you run into it's limitations.
Old 21st February 2018
  #2
Lives for gear
 
RRCHON's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post

1. VCA faders - just for the fact that it's very easy to ride a mix into the red without them, then lose mix cohesion when lowering volume in any other way.

2. More choices for bouncing- Reaper is the model here, Reaper has Stems bouncing, bouncing of selected tracks to separate files. You can select master buses for drums, melody etc. with renaming tags before you bounce. So you can have it name each file with it's track name, then then project name, time, or BPM or anything really. This is a HUGE time saver for me.

3. GUI/UI improvements- Not like Logic where they forgot their "legacy" instruments, but overall. I'm a big fan of the way DP looks, but before modern HD (and above) LED screens. How long have people complained about the ridiculously small V's for volume points in CC automation lanes? MX4 is tiny and as nasty looking as Logics EXS24, some fonts make 20 year olds squint, and this isn't a kids DAW.

4. Object oriented MIDI Editing- You can cut, slice, merge etc. audio in DP but all MIDI is one long stream, this is cool in the MIDI editor, you never have to worry about selecting all the MIDI on a track to see it, but it's a PITA in the Track window, where anyone whose been using DP forever knows to go for bulk editing. Parsed MIDI is a halfway point that hasn't been a reasonable alternative for years, it's almost never helps me, no matter what setting I give it in Preferences. I can see why MOTU don't want to deal with the Sequence Editor and object oriented MIDI, but the Track window is sorely needing it at the least. With the Sequence window a switch between the current MIDI editor view and objects is totally possible, again this is how Reaper does it. This goes all the way down to the way looping is portrayed onscreen, and the way it's implemented in DP is from the time that squinting 20 year old was born.

5. MIDI improvements in General- Every other DAW has the ability to restrain MIDI to say C1-C4 on a MIDI track, DP cannot do this. Every single other DAW allows you to choose between absolute and relative snapping to the grid when moving notes. MPE is the future, DP is in the short bus list of DAWs that require 16 plus tracks to record MIDI from an MPE device. DP has absolutely stellar legacy MIDI editing features, and hasn't kept up for over a decade now. I didn't even get to Cubase with note expression and Logic with custom articulation controls.
If they could just deliver those top 5 I would be ecstatic, anything beyond that would be pure icing, but I kind of like the way V-Racks and instrument / midi separation works, I don't think I would be willing to give that up for a single midi-audio tracks.
Old 21st February 2018
  #3
I have to agree with machinesworking. I use both DP and Reaper. Love them both but I really have to tip my hat to the Cockos guys for packing so many great features while being only a two man operation. Thats amazing!!!

cheers
Old 21st February 2018
  #4
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRCHON View Post
If they could just deliver those top 5 I would be ecstatic, anything beyond that would be pure icing, but I kind of like the way V-Racks and instrument / midi separation works, I don't think I would be willing to give that up for a single midi-audio tracks.
Single tracks for soft synths is where you really notice it. It's not that big of a deal for samplers and multi out instruments, but things like Diva or CS80 etc. don't need seperate tracks unless they're in a V-Rack, and they lose track automation in a V-Rack. At some point you realize if you work in other DAWs that you simply don't automate things as much in DP because it's a PITA with V-Racks.. Learn every plug ins idiosyncratic MIDI automation just to lower release on a part in a song.
Plus the clutter. You should at least be able to fold MIDI into it's respective MIDI instrument so it's a lane like automation. this would be a compromise and would potentially allow less conflicts when moving instruments to V-Racks
Old 21st February 2018
  #5
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoRibeiro.Com View Post
I have to agree with machinesworking. I use both DP and Reaper. Love them both but I really have to tip my hat to the Cockos guys for packing so many great features while being only a two man operation. Thats amazing!!!

cheers
I totally agree, they're doing great stuff, but I know my way around DP really well, and it has a lot of workflow and UI advantages Reaper doesn't have. It would be nice if DP stepped up to the plate.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
I totally agree, they're doing great stuff, but I know my way around DP really well, and it has a lot of workflow and UI advantages Reaper doesn't have. It would be nice if DP stepped up to the plate.
I'm curious, in your opinion, what are DP's workflow and UI advantages Reaper doesn't have?

cheers
Old 22nd February 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoRibeiro.Com View Post
I'm curious, in your opinion, what are DP's workflow and UI advantages Reaper doesn't have?

cheers
First off the always open FX chain on the side of open FX and instrument plug in windows. I can't say enough bad things about this, it's freaking white, clashes with every Theme in Reaper. It's not closable...

The track control panels for a track show the Input to the right and sometimes to the left of the I/O panel where the freaking output for the track is, as well as sends etc. The thing just bounces all over the place when you resize it.

The color chooser for coloring a track if you want specific colors for specific tracks closes, every, single, time, you, choose, a, color. Not a thing can be done about it.

The default for the MIDI Editor is the pencil tool, there's no tool pallet, so you have to guess that it might be possible to get rid of this behavior. Oh, there's no tool pallet, various tool pallet type functions are there, and you can eventually assign key commands to them, but you're not getting a nice floating pallet like you can in Logic and DP.

There's not a single way I can find to adjust the various track and edit grid sizes up and down a single grid size. The only option seems to be to set key commands for every grid size and learn them...

I could go on, but Reaper is really pretty cool in many ways, but when you look at basic design standards it falls short big time compared to Cubase, DP, Logic, etc. Looking at functions themselves, maybe not the way you access them, but the functions, and Reaper blows DP away big time. Rendering, spectral editing, time stretching, MPE, VCA faders, routing etc.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
First off the always open FX chain on the side of open FX and instrument plug in windows. I can't say enough bad things about this, it's freaking white, clashes with every Theme in Reaper. It's not closable...

The track control panels for a track show the Input to the right and sometimes to the left of the I/O panel where the freaking output for the track is, as well as sends etc. The thing just bounces all over the place when you resize it.

The color chooser for coloring a track if you want specific colors for specific tracks closes, every, single, time, you, choose, a, color. Not a thing can be done about it.

The default for the MIDI Editor is the pencil tool, there's no tool pallet, so you have to guess that it might be possible to get rid of this behavior. Oh, there's no tool pallet, various tool pallet type functions are there, and you can eventually assign key commands to them, but you're not getting a nice floating pallet like you can in Logic and DP.

There's not a single way I can find to adjust the various track and edit grid sizes up and down a single grid size. The only option seems to be to set key commands for every grid size and learn them...

I could go on, but Reaper is really pretty cool in many ways, but when you look at basic design standards it falls short big time compared to Cubase, DP, Logic, etc. Looking at functions themselves, maybe not the way you access them, but the functions, and Reaper blows DP away big time. Rendering, spectral editing, time stretching, MPE, VCA faders, routing etc.
You're right although in my case, none of those are deal breakers for me.
Luckily you can customise everything the way you want to to do most of the things you mentioned. The problem is getting there because Reaper's defaults are kind of atrocious.
DP doesn't have that problem and the Tracks window is one of the features I like most about DP, even with small fonts.
Also having multiple Sequences in one project file is awesome!

cheers
Old 23rd February 2018
  #9
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
So my expectation that MOTU were going to release DP 10 or X soon was squashed with no Alpha teaser at NAMM. I'm pretty sure in general it's hard to get what you want from developers in terms of new features but what are your top choices? Like most power users I have at least 25 things I want, so to keep some hope of common choices popping up, limiting it to a few instead of dozens makes sense.

In no order:

1. VCA faders - just for the fact that it's very easy to ride a mix into the red without them, then lose mix cohesion when lowering volume in any other way.

2. More choices for bouncing- Reaper is the model here, Reaper has Stems bouncing, bouncing of selected tracks to separate files. You can select master buses for drums, melody etc. with renaming tags before you bounce. So you can have it name each file with it's track name, then then project name, time, or BPM or anything really. This is a HUGE time saver for me.

3. GUI/UI improvements- Not like Logic where they forgot their "legacy" instruments, but overall. I'm a big fan of the way DP looks, but before modern HD (and above) LED screens. How long have people complained about the ridiculously small V's for volume points in CC automation lanes? MX4 is tiny and as nasty looking as Logics EXS24, some fonts make 20 year olds squint, and this isn't a kids DAW.

4. Object oriented MIDI Editing- You can cut, slice, merge etc. audio in DP but all MIDI is one long stream, this is cool in the MIDI editor, you never have to worry about selecting all the MIDI on a track to see it, but it's a PITA in the Track window, where anyone whose been using DP forever knows to go for bulk editing. Parsed MIDI is a halfway point that hasn't been a reasonable alternative for years, it's almost never helps me, no matter what setting I give it in Preferences. I can see why MOTU don't want to deal with the Sequence Editor and object oriented MIDI, but the Track window is sorely needing it at the least. With the Sequence window a switch between the current MIDI editor view and objects is totally possible, again this is how Reaper does it. This goes all the way down to the way looping is portrayed onscreen, and the way it's implemented in DP is from the time that squinting 20 year old was born.

5. MIDI improvements in General- Every other DAW has the ability to restrain MIDI to say C1-C4 on a MIDI track, DP cannot do this. Every single other DAW allows you to choose between absolute and relative snapping to the grid when moving notes. MPE is the future, DP is in the short bus list of DAWs that require 16 plus tracks to record MIDI from an MPE device. DP has absolutely stellar legacy MIDI editing features, and hasn't kept up for over a decade now. I didn't even get to Cubase with note expression and Logic with custom articulation controls.

6. Single tracks for the software instrument and MIDI- I concede, I don't like working in DP on anything involving a lot of track automation not because DP is bad at track automation, but because 8 software instrument tracks is 16 onscreen, 20 is 40 etc. I get that V-Racks are amazing for people scoring films but they aren't a lot of fun when it comes to working with anything but samplers with scripting etc. I just end up working in V-Racks to get rid of the clutter, then end up not doing a lot of automation. The issue of losing track automation if someone was to want to port to a V-Rack a software instrument already exists so...

7. Improved bussing options- DP has great bussing, and years behind UX for bussing. In Live, Logic, and Reaper, along with many others, to bus x amount of tracks to another is really really easy, it's also really powerful. For instance bouncing only the master bus in Reaper does not result in an empty file. You literally can click drag in the arrangement page of Reaper to bus a track to another. Logic is as easy with VCA faders. MOTU needs to grab this and run!

I'm stopping here, so we might have some common wishes. I'm posting a lot of these types of threads I know, but I think it's great to have a forum where I can. Reaper is deep, and MOTU could learn from them. DP will always be easier to grasp and adheres to UI standards a lot more, but Reaper is killing it when it comes to customizing a workflow to your needs, something DP is good at until you run into it's limitations.
The only one of the above that doesn't hold anything for me is #2 .

For #3 a less cluttered gui would be great. Would love to be able to lose some of the tabs in the consolidated window. I work mainly in the sequence editor and mixer. For MIDI editing I prefer working in a separate floating window.

#6 is something that absolutely annoys me about DP. Every other daw allows as an option the ability to work either old school or has true instrument tracks. V-racks - never use 'em. And agreed - track automation in DP bites the big one.

#7 - sure DP's bussing is okay but would like to be able to do it the PT way where you don't have to declare a bus to route tracks to each other which is what I think you may be talking about. In PT you click on a track output field and you can route right to another track without having to create a bus first - it creates the bus for you; you also have the ability to go to a bus that was previously defined. Having to create a bus first like in DP reminds me of computer programming in the early 70's where you had to declare your variables first in BASIC. Dynamic variables didn't happen until later.
Old 25th February 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
The only one of the above that doesn't hold anything for me is #2 .

For #3 a less cluttered gui would be great. Would love to be able to lose some of the tabs in the consolidated window. I work mainly in the sequence editor and mixer. For MIDI editing I prefer working in a separate floating window.

#6 is something that absolutely annoys me about DP. Every other daw allows as an option the ability to work either old school or has true instrument tracks. V-racks - never use 'em. And agreed - track automation in DP bites the big one.

#7 - sure DP's bussing is okay but would like to be able to do it the PT way where you don't have to declare a bus to route tracks to each other which is what I think you may be talking about. In PT you click on a track output field and you can route right to another track without having to create a bus first - it creates the bus for you; you also have the ability to go to a bus that was previously defined. Having to create a bus first like in DP reminds me of computer programming in the early 70's where you had to declare your variables first in BASIC. Dynamic variables didn't happen until later.
#2 is near the top for me, I play out sometimes, and getting stems into Live easily is a huge deal. #3 I'm not sure would ever meet your needs, as less tbs would still take up that pixel space, a drop down menu would be ideal in my mind, but I get why people might balk at it.

#6 , Reaper takes this a step further, folders can be made where a track with data on it can be the top folder, this is freaking great with hardware, my moog requires two MIDI tracks, one for cc directly from its knobs, but since it doesn't have aftertouch on it's keyboard playing notes in is best done with a midi controller keyboard like the Remote SLMKII. So I can use the midi track for the visible track and hide the aux style audio track and cc track in the arrangement effectively making hardware act like a virtual instrument in Logic, Pro Tools etc.!

#7 Exactly! simply dropping tracks into an empty track makes that track the master bus and routes those tracks to it. It's that simple. Sends are almost as easy, you drag from the I/O section to the say reverb track and it creates a send.

I'm not giving up on DP, I can still see its superiority for things like orchestral work and film scoring, large templates. I love how easy DP is to figure out etc. I think for basic electronic and rock which is mostly what I do though, Reaper is killing DP.
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