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Bought DP9 on the crossgrade offer
Old 15th December 2017
  #1
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Bought DP9 on the crossgrade offer

Im not paying Avid any annual fees so I have been looking to leave PT as my main DAW. I use a few other DAWs too and DP9 looks interesting. My first concern is it is not quite as intuitive as a few of my other DAWs...I realize this could just be my perception after a day or two..or misperception?

So what do you think an experienced user of multiple DAWs will be looking at for a learning curve...and in your opinion is DP a good choice for your main DAW?

One way or the other I’m glad I can own it for so little.

Thanks
Old 16th December 2017
  #2
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DP is a great choice for a main DAW. The main things that throw people off when first using DP VS other DAWs to me are:

- DP/MOTU's use of the term Sequence and Song. A Sequence in DP is a song, or a part of a song.

Chunks- Sequence Chunks is a term MOTU use to describe a song sequence, or the basic linear timeline of every DAW. So with DP it's entirely possible to have completely different songs in the same project as different Sequence Chunks. To add confusion MOTU also call the Song Window ( a building block rough sketch tool ), and their virtual instrument racks (V-Racks), Chunks. All are displayed in the same Chunk window for your open Project.


Virtual instrument tracks don't host MIDI, you have to have two tracks for virtual instruments.

You have the option to use all your instrument, auxiliary, and master fader tracks in a a virtual rack or V-Rack. This is useful for situations where you're wanting multiple versions of the same Sequence Chunk or song etc. You can save resources because V-Raks are able to be accessed in any Sequence Chunk, they act like hardware etc. The downside is MIDI automation only, since as a 'rack' they have no track automation. The upside is obvious with variations on a theme and a dozen 10 minute MIDI sequences etc. for a movie for instance, you're not using separate instances of Kontakt for the same string patch 12 times etc.

I think at first it's best to work in a single Sequence Chunk and learn the UI of DP, then move on to looking at the ways you can use Sequence Chunks, V-Racks and the Song Window in your workflow.. It can be too confusing to try to incorporate these new things into your writing when you first approach DP. I switched to Logic for a long time in the early 2000's and even that had me head scratching at DP when I came back.

MOTU have some videos on Youtube worth checking out on Chunks etc.
Old 18th December 2017
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
Im not paying Avid any annual fees so I have been looking to leave PT as my main DAW. I use a few other DAWs too and DP9 looks interesting. My first concern is it is not quite as intuitive as a few of my other DAWs...I realize this could just be my perception after a day or two..or misperception?

So what do you think an experienced user of multiple DAWs will be looking at for a learning curve...and in your opinion is DP a good choice for your main DAW?

One way or the other I’m glad I can own it for so little.

Thanks
Welcome to Digital Performer!

Feel free to contact me directly any time if you have questions. My email address is in my sig.

Dave
Old 21st December 2017
  #4
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musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
Im not paying Avid any annual fees so I have been looking to leave PT as my main DAW. I use a few other DAWs too and DP9 looks interesting. My first concern is it is not quite as intuitive as a few of my other DAWs...I realize this could just be my perception after a day or two..or misperception?

So what do you think an experienced user of multiple DAWs will be looking at for a learning curve...and in your opinion is DP a good choice for your main DAW?

One way or the other I’m glad I can own it for so little.

Thanks
To add to others that have and may post here I think you'll find DP a fairly steep learning curve especially coming from PT. I know I did (long time PT user going back to PT10). DP's gui is way more cluttered than PT and with a 'flat' gui it's even worse; even a lot of the themes in DP don't help all that much. Another thing is a lot of the shortcuts are different in DP if you stick with the stock implementation but you can change them if you so desire.

Oh yeah - another annoyance with DP versus PT - there's no clip gain in DP like in PT. It can be done but not as easy as in PT and it certainly doesn't show in a track in DP like in PT.

I'm not saying to NOT go to DP but just that you shouldn't expect to get much done in the near term and certainly not if you're on a deadline. Full disclosure - PT is still my main daw as I can get around it quicker than DP (see above comment on clip gain for just one reason).

Last thought - don't expect much help from that other DP forum especially if you ask questions and the denizens there think you haven't looked in the manual.
Old 24th December 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Last thought - don't expect much help from that other DP forum especially if you ask questions and the denizens there think you haven't looked in the manual.
That's the understatement of the year. I'm a MOTU interface user and I made the mistake of asking a simple routing question in that forum. Nasty people over there. I never went back.
Old 24th December 2017
  #6
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Originally Posted by loopy View Post
That's the understatement of the year. I'm a MOTU interface user and I made the mistake of asking a simple routing question in that forum. Nasty people over there. I never went back.
Yup. And looking at your system profile you're on Windows and despite that forum having Windows subforums they're still mainly a Mac-centric board and won't let you forget about it. Was a member there twice separated by a couple of years and nothing changed. One or two good people and the rest - if I say any more I'll get thrown off this forum. Email or PM me and we'll talk more.
Old 30th December 2017
  #7
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sam c's Avatar
 

Yeah, I like DP9 but it is not as clear cut as a few other DAW's I am familiar with. Also, functions like clip gain not being included seems antiquated. It'll take some time but I will hang in there.

Thanks for your responses.
Old 30th December 2017
  #8
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KV626's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
Yeah, I like DP9 but it is not as clear cut as a few other DAW's I am familiar with. Also, functions like clip gain not being included seems antiquated.
It is included, sort of, but PT is really king when it comes to clip gain compared to the others. DP and Logic right now can only dream of such flexibility. I've heard Cubase's isn't bad (but not on par with PT) although I don't use Cubase myself.
Old 30th December 2017
  #9
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musicman691's Avatar
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Originally Posted by KV626 View Post
It is included, sort of, but PT is really king when it comes to clip gain compared to the others. DP and Logic right now can only dream of such flexibility. I've heard Cubase's isn't bad (but not on par with PT) although I don't use Cubase myself.
DP's kludge is a nightmare compared to the PT implementation as is so many other things in DP. But hey - the denizens over on Motunation think it's the bee's knees and can't see a reason for it to change much like DP's implementation of instrument tracks.
Old 1st January 2018
  #10
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Dzilizi's Avatar
I too just picked up DP on the sale. I'm trying to figure it out. How similar is 9 to 8? I have a Groove3 membership but they only show videos on DP 8. I will watch them to see if they can get me started. It could be more intuitive, but I'm thinking starting with a template is not so smart when you can't tell the difference between an audio track and instrument track. Also I need to tell it where my vst's are. Because Kontakt is not showing up as an instrument.
Thanks.
Old 1st January 2018
  #11
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Ctually, Dzilizi, Groove3 has a 10-part series called, "Top 10 New Features in DP 9", which runs for approximately 50 mins in total.

Not sure why you're not seeing it, mate. Here're the chapter titles:

01 New Project Tools
02 Mute MIDI Notes
03 MIDI Learn for Audio Plugins
04 Spectrogram
05 Automation Lanes
06 MX4
07 MegaSynth
08 MicroG & MicroB
09 MultiFuzz
10 Fet-76

... and here's a link to it:

Top 10 Features in Digital Performer 9 - Groove3 Tutorial

I'm guessing maybe you scanned for tutorials starting with "DP" or "Digital Performer", which would explain why you didn't see it if that were the case.

HTH mate.
Old 1st January 2018
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzilizi View Post
I too just picked up DP on the sale. I'm trying to figure it out. How similar is 9 to 8? I have a Groove3 membership but they only show videos on DP 8. I will watch them to see if they can get me started. It could be more intuitive, but I'm thinking starting with a template is not so smart when you can't tell the difference between an audio track and instrument track. Also I need to tell it where my vst's are. Because Kontakt is not showing up as an instrument.
Thanks.
You go the the project menu / add track / instrument track. Under instrument track you will have a sub folders of the different brands of plugins you own. When you select the one you want it will appear as a track. I organize them all together and put them into a folder.

As far as the same old very few people going onto every DP thread and saying how terrible it is it is very tiresome. We have heard you over and over and over again. I am all for constructive criticism but the way it comes across is more like trolling. I am no DP fan boy and regularly go to their suggestions page with things I would like implemented. Many of them have become reality.

I like DP a lot and have recorded hundreds of albums on it. We also have PT and Logic and they are both great as well. No software is perfect but DP is a very well thought out and mature package. They all have their high points and low points. I like the work flow of DP for both recording and mixing. I have had very good customer service with them - they are just a call away during business hours.
Old 1st January 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzilizi View Post
How similar is 9 to 8? I have a Groove3 membership but they only show videos on DP 8. I will watch them to see if they can get me started.
The Groove3 videos for DP8 are great and generally very applicable to DP9.
Old 1st January 2018
  #14
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Yes Rich, and I think the idea of the "10 New Features" offering I linked to above was simply to fill in the gaps / update the DP8 videos.
Old 1st January 2018
  #15
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Robert Randolph's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam c View Post
Yeah, I like DP9 but it is not as clear cut as a few other DAW's I am familiar with. Also, functions like clip gain not being included seems antiquated. It'll take some time but I will hang in there.

Thanks for your responses.
DP has 'bite gain'. Each soundbite has its own non-destructive gain. There's 3 ways I know of for accessing this:

Key commands:
  • Clear Bite Volume
  • Clear Bite Gain
  • Set Bite Gain...
  • Toggle Bite Volume Bypass
  • Adjust Bite Volume +.5 dB
  • Adjust Bite Volume -.5 dB

Event Information Window:



Sound File Information Window:



I always have the "Sound File Information" window docked in the right side of my main DP window. It's very useful.

(This isn't as easily accessible as some other clip gain features like PT and Reaper or Logic's region based automation, but bite gain is there regardless)
Old 2nd January 2018
  #16
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musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
DP has 'bite gain'. Each soundbite has its own non-destructive gain. There's 3 ways I know of for accessing this:

Key commands:
  • Clear Bite Volume
  • Clear Bite Gain
  • Set Bite Gain...
  • Toggle Bite Volume Bypass
  • Adjust Bite Volume +.5 dB
  • Adjust Bite Volume -.5 dB

Event Information Window:



Sound File Information Window:



I always have the "Sound File Information" window docked in the right side of my main DP window. It's very useful.

(This isn't as easily accessible as some other clip gain features like PT and Reaper or Logic's region based automation, but bite gain is there regardless)
"Isn't as easily accessible as some other clip gain features like PT" is the understatement of this young year. DP's method is a kludge; you shouldn't have to go to yet another window or menu item to do what should be a simple thing. DP's gui is bad enough on hi-res monitors without having extra windows as sidebars.

Why do you think a lot of people that have both DP and PT use PT to mix in?
Old 3rd January 2018
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
"Isn't as easily accessible as some other clip gain features like PT" is the understatement of this young year. DP's method is a kludge; you shouldn't have to go to yet another window or menu item to do what should be a simple thing. DP's gui is bad enough on hi-res monitors without having extra windows as sidebars.

Why do you think a lot of people that have both DP and PT use PT to mix in?
In bold, the key command requires none of that. I never use the windows described because I've always used the key commands. What in PT is quicker to raise the db of a track than select 'clip/bite' and hit a key command?
Old 3rd January 2018
  #18
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musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
In bold, the key command requires none of that. I never use the windows described because I've always used the key commands. What in PT is quicker to raise the db of a track than select 'clip/bite' and hit a key command?
If you're talking about clips in PT you make a selection of the audio you want to raise or lower, right click and select separate, and you have your adjustment fader right there always visible right in the audio stream. The DP way assumes you know how much you want to change the level and that's not always known. Also with DP you don't get a fader; really what's more intuitive than having a fader to adjust? Nothing.

Even Robert Randolph admits DP's way isn't as accessible as PT's way.
Old 4th January 2018
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
If you're talking about clips in PT you make a selection of the audio you want to raise or lower, right click and select separate, and you have your adjustment fader right there always visible right in the audio stream. The DP way assumes you know how much you want to change the level and that's not always known. Also with DP you don't get a fader; really what's more intuitive than having a fader to adjust? Nothing.

Even Robert Randolph admits DP's way isn't as accessible as PT's way.
The key commands I use are for +\- .5db, while it’s great to have a fader it’s not as super common feature for audio clip gain, and personally even though Live has faders in the submenu for clip gain I don’t find it any more useful than DPs methods. At least in Live there’s no key command to perform that function you have to mouse to the fader after selecting the clip and manually move the fader. It’s more intuitive than DPs methods for sure, but it’s also slower once you get DPs key commands down. If PT does both then that’s great, but to if it’s just a fader for clip gain then personally I don’t see a huge advantage.
Old 4th January 2018
  #20
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musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
The key commands I use are for +\- .5db, while it’s great to have a fader it’s not as super common feature for audio clip gain, and personally even though Live has faders in the submenu for clip gain I don’t find it any more useful than DPs methods. At least in Live there’s no key command to perform that function you have to mouse to the fader after selecting the clip and manually move the fader. It’s more intuitive than DPs methods for sure, but it’s also slower once you get DPs key commands down. If PT does both then that’s great, but to if it’s just a fader for clip gain then personally I don’t see a huge advantage.
You never worked on a console then right? I don't see how using a fader is slower than using DP's key commands. Besides like I said if you have to go back and make an adjustment the DP way is actually slower and very non-intuitive. I've tried the DP way and it, to put it mildly - sucks big time. DP could be great but it's so damned backwards at times as compared to every other daw out there.
Old 4th January 2018
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
You never worked on a console then right? I don't see how using a fader is slower than using DP's key commands. Besides like I said if you have to go back and make an adjustment the DP way is actually slower and very non-intuitive. I've tried the DP way and it, to put it mildly - sucks big time. DP could be great but it's so damned backwards at times as compared to every other daw out there.
If the Clip gain can be accessed from a console you have a point, most of the time consoles don't assign faders to clip gain, just MIDI and audio tracks. If you're saying the concept of a fader is just naturally superior, you're being far too subjective in your views.

And you're definitely wrong in thinking DP is backward compared to other DAWs or that this is actually slower. Learn the key commands and it can't possibly be slower.
Key commands are not backwards compared to emulating consoles. Things that are implemented in a DAW in a way you're not comfortable with do not make that DAW backwards, for you alone? yes, for everyone? no.

Again, for me personally I prefer key commands to mousing, whether mousing is implemented to look like a console or not.
Old 4th January 2018
  #22
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musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
If the Clip gain can be accessed from a console you have a point, most of the time consoles don't assign faders to clip gain, just MIDI and audio tracks. If you're saying the concept of a fader is just naturally superior, you're being far too subjective in your views.

And you're definitely wrong in thinking DP is backward compared to other DAWs or that this is actually slower. Learn the key commands and it can't possibly be slower.
Key commands are not backwards compared to emulating consoles. Things that are implemented in a DAW in a way you're not comfortable with do not make that DAW backwards, for you alone? yes, for everyone? no.

Again, for me personally I prefer key commands to mousing, whether mousing is implemented to look like a console or not.
I'm not saying anything has to look like a console but work like one - big difference. Those of us that came up on hardware consoles are very comfortable with faders. And I never said clip gain had to be accessed from a console; also not talking about consoles the way DP uses the term.

To answer your question - when a daw makes me work in a way that's not intuitive then it's backwards, especially given how long DP has been around. You would think that by now they would have gotten with a better workflow that's intuitive but not a chance.

As I may have said: I hate mixing in DP and bring audio over into PT for everything after tracking especially when I work with vi's. If it's pure audio then it's PT all the way, thank you very much. Does that make a a PT fanboy - not a chance as it has it's issues as well but none that are showstoppers or slower-downers like DP.
Old 6th January 2018
  #23
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Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I'm not saying anything has to look like a console but work like one - big difference. Those of us that came up on hardware consoles are very comfortable with faders. And I never said clip gain had to be accessed from a console; also not talking about consoles the way DP uses the term.

To answer your question - when a daw makes me work in a way that's not intuitive then it's backwards, especially given how long DP has been around. You would think that by now they would have gotten with a better workflow that's intuitive but not a chance.

As I may have said: I hate mixing in DP and bring audio over into PT for everything after tracking especially when I work with vi's. If it's pure audio then it's PT all the way, thank you very much. Does that make a a PT fanboy - not a chance as it has it's issues as well but none that are showstoppers or slower-downers like DP.
Comparing DAWs you're always going to find features that one DAW does better than the other. I like PTs redraw of the waveform in clips and the volume slider I would probably use that at times. Obviously DP is better at VI's, PT has a rep for being CPU pig that way, so is Live. Logic at various times could load far more AUs than any DAW could load VSTs. DP has great pitch correction built in, Live has great timing correction built in, but no pitch correction of any real worth.

You tend to exaggerate in my opinion though, there's nothing "show stopper" about DP not having a little fader pop up in a clip, and personally I have at least 10 features or improvements to DP I would like to see before that gets implemented, since you can easily raise and lower the clip gain through key commands.

We have different needs and wants out of a DAW, and if DP isn't doing it for you by all means use Pro Tools or Logic or...
Old 10th January 2019
  #24
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That's the understatement of the year. I'm a MOTU interface user and I made the mistake of asking a simple routing question in that forum.
Old 10th January 2019
  #25
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musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleworm1337 View Post
That's the understatement of the year. I'm a MOTU interface user and I made the mistake of asking a simple routing question in that forum.
If you're not an elite user or one of the clicque then they'll eat you alive and think nothing of it. I'm talking about posters over there like MLC (aka MIDI Life Crisis), Mike Halloran, and the board owner who I laughingly call King Jimmy because he hates when people don't call him by his real name. There are some good people there but they're few & far between. Monkey Man and Shooshie are two of the better ones.
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