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Why isn't DP one of the "Top three" DAWs?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #361
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LONGtime Dp user here, I’ve pretty much made the jump to logic.

I do think DP is the “king of daws” in a way. You can do soooooooooo much with it, that is is almost a detriment. It’s too complicated to do easy stuff. I also don’t love that they left their old pci customers up a creek, so I left them for apogee.

Meanwhile, logic is just really freaking great for making music.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #362
Gear Addict
 

Hello

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
I also don’t love that they left their old pci customers up a creek.
What do you mean ??
The latest driver have less than two years and work up to 10.3
Motu can't be blame for driver an product support...
I was amazed last year to find a driver for my ooooooooooold 828 (yes the mkI....) 2017 update for up to 10.3 too..the product is 18 years old !

I just buy a FW400/800 cable for the fun and the 828 is again in the rack "in case" for S/P dif and optical...after almost 10 years unused

Best
Zam
Old 3 weeks ago
  #363
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
I’ve been DP since 2.7 and Performer since version 1.22. That’s 1985. I own Logic, PT, Live 10 and Reason whatever. Logic just doesn’t do it for me. I have an unusual way of working. I use Metric Halo ULN-8s for my interface. It has an external mixer. This is kind of a pain to set up in Logic, or it was. I had to do workarounds. The VIs are nice but I have enough 3rd party Omnisphere, Kontakt, Ivory, Deva, Falcon, UNI, Keyscape,Superior Drummer and a bunch of others. Not necessary for me. But I have recommended Logic for new DAW folks on
a Mac. No brained.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #364
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
I agree, except two ways Reaper beats DP MIDI wise.
MPE support and note ranges with MIDI tracks.
DP to this day cannot limit the range of MIDI on a channel to facilitate things like having an organ sound C4 to C8 and a bass sound C1 to B3 etc.

Reaper also has access to practically everything using at least three different high level programming languages. This has made controller scripts for various things like Push 2, Launchpad etc. possible. DP still has big issues with most control surfaces that do not support HUI or Mackie protocol, like the transports on AKAI, NI, and Arturia controller keyboards.
All very true. Problem for me is that I rarely care about amazing midi functionality plusses about Reaper if the basic editing system is more the problem than a problem solver. I've been a registered user since V4.0 and I still don't get how anyone can use it for work beyond quantized DJ music. Just editing a jazz piano part over a live basic track makes me want to kill myself. In DP or even PT no problem. Editing specific passages in three balls out keyboard instrument performances, say piano, EP and organ, that need to be tweaked to work better with each other, is a much lower priority to the developer than the fact that I can create a multichannel track, link the velocity curves on the plugins and shorten the piano notes based on inverse relativity, either logarithmically or exponentially, and send selected tracks to track under mouse cursor while moving selected Item(s) left by loop division. Impressive. But not a selling point for me if real world midi editing is such torture.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboy View Post
All very true. Problem for me is that I rarely care about amazing midi functionality plusses about Reaper if the basic editing system is more the problem than a problem solver. I've been a registered user since V4.0 and I still don't get how anyone can use it for work beyond quantized DJ music. Just editing a jazz piano part over a live basic track makes me want to kill myself. In DP or even PT no problem. Editing specific passages in three balls out keyboard instrument performances, say piano, EP and organ, that need to be tweaked to work better with each other, is a much lower priority to the developer than the fact that I can create a multichannel track, link the velocity curves on the plugins and shorten the piano notes based on inverse relativity, either logarithmically or exponentially, and send selected tracks to track under mouse cursor while moving selected Item(s) left by loop division. Impressive. But not a selling point for me if real world midi editing is such torture.
Don't disagree with that assessment at all. Reaper is definitly IMO a master of nothing but capable of everything. You could probably reassign and refine the MIDI to your liking, but it would take a lot of time. UX is nonexistent in Reaper.

Mostly I just want MPE support and controller support in DP.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #366
Gear Maniac
Luca scripting in digital performer would be amazing.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #367
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

You mean Lua?

Indeed.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #368
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musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post

Mostly I just want MPE support and controller support in DP.
Supposedly you could use DP's consoles for what you want. I've tried that but could never get things to work consistently. And the 'learn' function has never been easy for me to master either with any consistency.
Old 1 week ago
  #369
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Dewdman42's Avatar
 

DP has some cool features that no other DAW has...and if you really want those features, its the one to get. However, I find the GUI to be clunky and 1990's in too many ways to count. I just can't enjoy using it. It makes me squint my eyes all the time. I find the general workflow to be more along the lines of how an audio engineer would think rather then how a composer/arranger would think. There is a lot of grey area to that statement I realize, but that is how I feel about it. Some friends of mine have been creating great music on DP for years and can't stomach the idea of LogicPro (which they call a "toy", even though its not) or Cubase, etc. A lot of it depends on what you get used to, but I just couldn't get used to DP after many years of trying. That is why, in my opinion it is not that popular amongst home studio folks. Its a very popular program, but some things are just plain awkward to do and their GUI is seriously stuck in 1990...

On the positive side, some things, are brilliant. Chunks is one feature often cited. There are some best in class features for working with video also.
Old 1 week ago
  #370
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Dewdman42's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gminorcoles View Post
Luca scripting in digital performer would be amazing.
You can use Protoplug to get that in any DAW.

https://www.osar.fr/protoplug/
Old 1 week ago
  #371
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdman42 View Post
DP has some cool features that no other DAW has...and if you really want those features, its the one to get. However, I find the GUI to be clunky and 1990's in too many ways to count. I just can't enjoy using it. It makes me squint my eyes all the time. I find the general workflow to be more along the lines of how an audio engineer would think rather then how a composer/arranger would think. There is a lot of grey area to that statement I realize, but that is how I feel about it. Some friends of mine have been creating great music on DP for years and can't stomach the idea of LogicPro (which they call a "toy", even though its not) or Cubase, etc. A lot of it depends on what you get used to, but I just couldn't get used to DP after many years of trying. That is why, in my opinion it is not that popular amongst home studio folks. Its a very popular program, but some things are just plain awkward to do and their GUI is seriously stuck in 1990...

On the positive side, some things, are brilliant. Chunks is one feature often cited. There are some best in class features for working with video also.
No articulation maps, no way to bounce your mix to anything other than the session sample rate (without importing the mix back and then converting), REAL TIME freeze, and no options of bouncing individual tracks during your main bounce (like PT, Cubase, and Studio One)....some basic things like that should be addressed before I could use it. But I do love many things about it, having used Performer (before DIGITAL PERFORMER) in the 80s and doing much music on it.
Old 1 week ago
  #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdman42 View Post
DP has some cool features that no other DAW has...and if you really want those features, its the one to get. However, I find the GUI to be clunky and 1990's in too many ways to count. I just can't enjoy using it. It makes me squint my eyes all the time. I find the general workflow to be more along the lines of how an audio engineer would think rather then how a composer/arranger would think. There is a lot of grey area to that statement I realize, but that is how I feel about it. Some friends of mine have been creating great music on DP for years and can't stomach the idea of LogicPro (which they call a "toy", even though its not) or Cubase, etc. A lot of it depends on what you get used to, but I just couldn't get used to DP after many years of trying. That is why, in my opinion it is not that popular amongst home studio folks. Its a very popular program, but some things are just plain awkward to do and their GUI is seriously stuck in 1990...

On the positive side, some things, are brilliant. Chunks is one feature often cited. There are some best in class features for working with video also.
The GUI is skin-able there are at least a dozen different ones, but I'm pretty sure you're meaning the UX or over all user experience.

In general I kind of agree with you, although it's not the UX I think holds DP back, it's the current slow development cycle. Things are changing, but at a slooow rate compared to Reaper, Logic and Cubase.

That and Chunks are amazing and confusing, it's almost too much power in the users hands, too many choices, too much room for vertigo if you start in on it too soon. It's like a hyper extended version of the confusion people get/got with Clips and Session View in Live.
Old 1 week ago
  #373
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Dewdman42's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
The GUI is skin-able there are at least a dozen different ones, but I'm pretty sure you're meaning the UX or over all user experience.

In general I kind of agree with you, although it's not the UX I think holds DP back, it's the current slow development cycle. Things are changing, but at a slooow rate compared to Reaper, Logic and Cubase.

That and Chunks are amazing and confusing, it's almost too much power in the users hands, too many choices, too much room for vertigo if you start in on it too soon. It's like a hyper extended version of the confusion people get/got with Clips and Session View in Live.
Skins and zoom don’t take it into 2019 it’s stuck in 1990 for a lot of usability reasons.
Old 1 week ago
  #374
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
No articulation maps,
Yeah this was a surprising one to me considering the amount of classical composers that use DP. I figured it would be a given in 10.

Quote:
no way to bounce your mix to anything other than the session sample rate (without importing the mix back and then converting),
This one never bothered me, I've used a two track editor for quick mastering etc. for years, but I get it.


Quote:
REAL TIME freeze, and no options of bouncing individual tracks during your main bounce (like PT, Cubase, and Studio One)
My main feature request for sure, I mostly write songs with backing tracks I want as stems, I would like the options of Reaper this way, tagging etc.

Real time freeze never bothered me much but considering it's essentially bounced tracks, I would like the option to render a frozen track as audio.This makes TOTAL sense with Chunks, you copy your finished composition to a new Chunk, freeze, then render all tracks as audio files. It's what I do anyway, but as it stands I copy the frozen tracks out of DP then rename them, then import them back into a new Chunk in the same project.
Old 1 week ago
  #375
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdman42 View Post
Skins and zoom don’t take it into 2019 it’s stuck in 1990 for a lot of usability reasons.
The GUI is the Graphic User Interface, i.e. the look of the user interface. It's a common thing to say that instead of UX which is the User experience, i.e. the placement of menus, the type of commands given etc. All the things that make something feel old or new. It's the difference between Kontakt and Absynth VS Pigments or Hive. Kontakt has a horrible UX compared to Pigments. Hive 2 IMO still looks like an older GUI style wise, but it's UX is vastly superior to neglected Absynth.

For what it's worth Logics GUI is great now, but it's UX is still a mess. On a personal level I'm not into it's GUI, I just recognize they're incorporating modern ideas into it.

For a fine combo of bad UX and GUI there's always Reaper.
It's so dammed powerful too, shame..
Old 6 days ago
  #376
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Space1999's Avatar
 

I was very disappointed returning to DP and I agree with the post that says the GUI is stuck in the 90s.

I bought DP again after a 14 year break. That was about $550 or so in 2017. Then DP X. I was excited that thinks were going to be upgraded and refined.

But holy s*^+ they want another $200 for the upgrade. I used to make a living using DP3 in my commercial studio. Everything was good and I was very fast with it.

Now I use Logic Pro X and I am not going to look back to DP. There is a whole other world in newer DAWs, with better help menus, faster paced idea to recording and tons of help designing authentic drum tracks in just a few minutes.

Moth also let me down when I bought Mach V only to find out that is hasn’t had an upgrade in years. Looks like they are just abandoning it.

Motu has gotten lost while other DAWs are running circles around it IMO.
Maybe Motu is more centered on selling bang for the buck hardware more than their software.

Pat
Old 6 days ago
  #377
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space1999 View Post

But holy s*^+ they want another $200 for the upgrade. I used to make a living using DP3 in my commercial studio. Everything was good and I was very fast with it.
Uhmmm? That's the standard price for an upgrade, when Logic 11 comes out it will be $200, it's about what Cubase, Pro Tools, etc etc. charge.

Quote:
Now I use Logic Pro X and I am not going to look back to DP. There is a whole other world in newer DAWs, with better help menus, faster paced idea to recording and tons of help designing authentic drum tracks in just a few minutes.
I bought a copy of Logic last year to port older songs and just to see how it's going. Honestly, it really is what you get used to, I was super fast in Logic in 2008, and these days it's all slug bait to me, the menus while making sense to you, are as out of place to me as DP's are to you. This is how muscle memory works..

Quote:
Moth also let me down when I bought Mach V only to find out that is hasn’t had an upgrade in years. Looks like they are just abandoning it.
UVI and them are not working on stuff together anymore, so M53 is dead, but there was (and maybe still is if you email them) a crossgrade discount to UVI's Falcon. It's a PITA, but having been a NI customer for 15+ years I'm used to products being discontinued for no apparent reason, at least in this case it was a dissolution of a business agreement, still sucks, but Falcon is fantastic, and dongle-less.
Old 6 days ago
  #378
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

I'm probably biased since I used to make a lot of music in the 80s (as Performer). I guess that's why MIDI in PT doesn't bother me too much, as it was designed by one of the designers of Performer. Same dialog boxes, etc.

I have gripes against DP but all in all, I really like the interface. Having all those side panels showing info is great to me. Like sitting in front of an AirBus cockpit or something lol. I'm not crazy about navigating around in it, but that's probably because I'm not used to it anymore (transport stuff).
Old 5 days ago
  #379
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
I'm probably biased since I used to make a lot of music in the 80s (as Performer). I guess that's why MIDI in PT doesn't bother me too much, as it was designed by one of the designers of Performer. Same dialog boxes, etc.
Dorking put a bit. MIDI in PT was helped out a lot by Dave Openheim, of Opcode and OMS fame.

Quote:
I have gripes against DP but all in all, I really like the interface. Having all those side panels showing info is great to me. Like sitting in front of an AirBus cockpit or something lol. I'm not crazy about navigating around in it, but that's probably because I'm not used to it anymore (transport stuff).
Like a lot fo good DAWs (IMO), DP is key command driven, setting up commands that work for you is crucial. DP10's new Run Command search engine is probably my favorite new feature for this reason. much quicker than searching the Commands window directly.
Old 5 days ago
  #380
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musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post

UVI and them are not working on stuff together anymore, so M53 is dead, but there was (and maybe still is if you email them) a crossgrade discount to UVI's Falcon. It's a PITA, but having been a NI customer for 15+ years I'm used to products being discontinued for no apparent reason, at least in this case it was a dissolution of a business agreement, still sucks, but Falcon is fantastic, and dongle-less.
I agree that Falcon sounds fantastic and I'd jump on it but for one issue: there's no demo version that I know of. Would hate to sink the $349 into it and find out I don't get along with it or that it barfs on my system. I'm thankful that just about every other big-time synth out there has a demo as it's saved me a whole bunch of cash.

As for a dongle - I have no problem with them.
Old 5 days ago
  #381
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I agree that Falcon sounds fantastic and I'd jump on it but for one issue: there's no demo version that I know of. Would hate to sink the $349 into it and find out I don't get along with it or that it barfs on my system. I'm thankful that just about every other big-time synth out there has a demo as it's saved me a whole bunch of cash.
It's been many years since I last used MF 3, but recall of first use of Falcon was that it has the same layout, structure, and functionality, MF 4 perhaps.

No barf here over several Mac OS upgrades as far back as Yosemite? All of the MF sounds load and perform as expected.

If you have MF or UVI content, then UVI Workstation works well for playback.
Old 5 days ago
  #382
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
I'm probably biased since I used to make a lot of music in the 80s (as Performer). I guess that's why MIDI in PT doesn't bother me too much, as it was designed by one of the designers of Performer. Same dialog boxes, etc.
According to Shoosie, a highly reputable source over at you know where, PT and DP have a graphic designer in common which most likely explains similarities in dialog boxes, etc.

Quote:
I have gripes against DP but all in all, I really like the interface. Having all those side panels showing info is great to me. Like sitting in front of an AirBus cockpit or something lol. I'm not crazy about navigating around in it, but that's probably because I'm not used to it anymore (transport stuff).
There really is something appealing about the rich colors used in the GUI and finishing touches such as rounded jelly bean MIDI notes.

On the other hand, if I really thought there was a benefit to working in a MIDI editor with no MIDI containers (regions or parts), then I would create one song-length MIDI region in whatever DAW I was using, and work within the key/piano roll roll editor. But I don't work that way.

Chasing the notes in the DP's sequencer and graphic (MIDI) editor is annoying. I have to constantly grab the scroll bar to position the notes in the center of those editors.

I open DP once in a while to look at it, but other DAW provide so much more feature-rich functionality for MIDI.

What bothers me and perhaps others is that at one time, DP was the cutting-edge DAW. To see other DAW eclipse DP was initially disheartening. I've purchased every upgrade from v4.5 to 10 with a sense of hope for improved functionality. It looks like MOTU really isn't that invested in developing DP, but is keeping it on life support. That's harsh I know, but that's my impression of the situation. Let's not discuss the graveyard of MOTU instruments.
Old 5 days ago
  #383
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Controller 11 View Post
According to Shoosie, a highly reputable source over at you know where, PT and DP have a graphic designer in common which most likely explains similarities in dialog boxes, etc.



There really is something appealing about the rich colors used in the GUI and finishing touches such as rounded jelly bean MIDI notes.

On the other hand, if I really thought there was a benefit to working in a MIDI editor with no MIDI containers (regions or parts), then I would create one song-length MIDI region in whatever DAW I was using, and work within the key/piano roll roll editor. But I don't work that way.

Chasing the notes in the DP's sequencer and graphic (MIDI) editor is annoying. I have to constantly grab the scroll bar to position the notes in the center of those editors.

I open DP once in a while to look at it, but other DAW provide so much more feature-rich functionality for MIDI.

What bothers me and perhaps others is that at one time, DP was the cutting-edge DAW. To see other DAW eclipse DP was initially disheartening. I've purchased every upgrade from v4.5 to 10 with a sense of hope for improved functionality. It looks like MOTU really isn't that invested in developing DP, but is keeping it on life support. That's harsh I know, but that's my impression of the situation. Let's not discuss the graveyard of MOTU instruments.
Shoosie should know better...Roy Groth developed Performer and the MIDI in PT.

"
Groth was an employee of MOTU from 1984 through 1989, being the force behind the creation of the original Performer, from version 1.0 through version 2.3. The Performer you see in this flier was apparently Roy's work.
Image

He seems to have left MOTU at the time when Performer began to go through some major changes. It was not long after he left that we had a Graphic Editing Window for MIDI, which gave us our first taste of the now familiar "piano roll" editor.

[Incidentally, piano rolls were not actually the "performance" of the artist who played the piano. A piano which could punch holes in paper would seriously affect the pianist's technique. Instead, the piano left faint marks on the roll in something like a pencil, then the REAL creator of those rolls came in and made the punches. He would base their sustain and loudness on his own familiarity with the artist, meaning that every piano roll you've ever heard as "authentic" was actually the interpretation of the technician who made the roll. Only a few people really knew about this, or were familiar with the punching/editing machines they used. It was very possibly these editors which inspired the piano roll editor for MIDI sequencers.]

For reasons known only to himself, I suppose, Roy Groth now goes by a different name, but here is his résumé on Linked-In:
Roy Groth/Procops The interesting part for our purposes is near the bottom, back toward the beginning of his professional programming experience. But it also gets interesting after he leaves MOTU, for he goes to work for AVID, and eventually designed the MIDI component of ProTools, then modifying it for OSX. This link takes you to a PDF of an article about a product at AVID for which Groth was the programming lead. (Groth is in the middle of the first picture) It's kind of interesting in its own light, though it has little to do with what we do. It's a multi-media tool for compiling and composing news for publishing or broadcasting."

From an article "Creating Digital Performer"
Old 5 days ago
  #384
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
Dorking put a bit. MIDI in PT was helped out a lot by Dave Openheim, of Opcode and OMS fame.


Like a lot fo good DAWs (IMO), DP is key command driven, setting up commands that work for you is crucial. DP10's new Run Command search engine is probably my favorite new feature for this reason. much quicker than searching the Commands window directly.
See my post a few posts down. Roy Groth was behind Performer and midi in Pro Tools...

Last edited by oceantracks; 5 days ago at 05:01 PM..
Old 5 days ago
  #385
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
I've been a loyal DP user forever. I'm not concerned with fashion or the the GUI is dated. I couldn't care less. That said the current DP 10 has me seriously annoyed. The windows, mixer and TRacks Overview don't remember their resizing. It a REAL PISSER. I'm considering jumping ship if they don't fix it fast.
Old 5 days ago
  #386
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I've been a loyal DP user forever. I'm not concerned with fashion or the the GUI is dated. I couldn't care less. That said the current DP 10 has me seriously annoyed. The windows, mixer and TRacks Overview don't remember their resizing. It a REAL PISSER. I'm considering jumping ship if they don't fix it fast.
Yeah, unfortunately "fast" and "MOTU" don't seem to be ever be found in the same sentence
Old 5 days ago
  #387
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
"
Groth was an employee of MOTU from 1984 through 1989, being the force behind the creation of the original Performer, from version 1.0 through version 2.3. The Performer you see in this flier was apparently Roy's work.
Image
Interesting information, thanks!
Looks like my statement about the graphic designer wasn't correct. Result of skimming vs. reading.
http://www.motunation.com/forum/view...hp?f=9&t=39386
Old 5 days ago
  #388
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Controller 11 View Post
Yes unfortunately the graphic link expired, I got a 404 when clicking on it.

I had a brief interaction with him as I was a BETA tester back in the 80s when he was there. Performer had a bug where after a certain amount of bars (Like...a lot...like 300 or so) it would just crash. I sent him the file and he sent me back a note (via snail mail!)....saying "Thanks Tom, that was a NASTY one!"
Old 5 days ago
  #389
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
See my post a few posts down. Roy Groth was behind Performer and midi in Pro Tools...
It's not black and white. Openheim worked on Pro Tools MIDI implantation as well.
Old 5 days ago
  #390
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
It's not black and white. Openheim worked on Pro Tools MIDI implantation as well.
More on Groth than anyone else....trust me
Topic:
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