The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Why isn't DP one of the "Top three" DAWs? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 4 days ago
  #271
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Just to be clear: Motunation/Unicornation is in no way affiliated with MOTU.

Motunation's obsession with piracy - meaning, suspecting and accusing legitimate, paying MOTU customers of piracy, is an expression of paranoia and aggression of the members and the forum owner, it has nothing whatsoever to do with MOTU's stand towards piracy.


Personally, as a paying customer, the prevalent technical incompetence and paranoia at that forum never had any impact on my appreciation of MOTU as a company, and DP as a fantastic product.
Its probably both. The forum can be a tough place to be. So so can this damn place. I’ve seen way more ridiculous fights here. There’s even some sort of tiff in THIS thread. I can grant you the reality that YOU did not dig Motunation, totally a fair observation.

But to make that forum out to be worse that this place is the same silliness you accuse them of ...in reverse,,,lol...

I do agree that the members there are the ones giving the flavor to any public impressions of piracy MOTUs piracy policy. Fair observation.

But For sure there is something old or “not right” about MOTU. I think they make too much money on their hardware, and hardware profits allow the software to fall behind a bit. Plus, its people man. Every company is people.

Somebody decides **** there. And they aint always keepin up with the youth it appears.
I hope someone new gets involved at their corporate level, and starts kicking some ass again to make the product top 3 at least...
Should be #2 depending on one’s focus.
Old 4 days ago
  #272
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
But think about it. Which computer will be more stable, a new machine running the latest OS, or an older machine that's been overclocked, had new OS versions just barely installed, etc?

It's human nature to want a computer you spent thousands on five or seven years ago to keep up with the times. That's often not the way it works however.
Lol! I feel like I'm being put on the spot somehow.
There are some great and solid upgrades/hacks to 09/10 Mac Pros that add a lot of power and upgradability to older machines. Yes, you need to know what you're doing, but it can be pretty impressive. My multi core Geekbench scores on this modded 09 Mac Pro are at 30200, putting it right near the latest Macs, beating out the 2013 trash cans.

I'm currently stuck on 10.12.5 because of a third party NVME driver that I'm using. Supposedly 10.3 added native support for third party NVME cards, but I'm loathing the thought of testing it. If it's not broken don't fix it etc.

Anyway I actually mostly agree, but a part of me is sad that Apple at this point in time have shut down modding their machines, the NVME card I have for sample libraries runs at 1500MBs, starup drive at 1100MBs. I swapped out the 8 cores at 2.6Ghz for 12 cores at 3.4Ghz. and added a Sonnet USB3 card...

I get that tech support has it easier with off the shelf machines, but if Apple actually does release a 'modular' Mac Pro with some actual flexibility on the end user part, I'm going to be a happy man!
Old 4 days ago
  #273
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by toodamnhip View Post
I hope someone new gets involved at their corporate level, and starts kicking some ass again to make the product top 3 at least...
Should be #2 depending on one’s focus.
Yeah, hard to say, I just wish it competed squarely. DP has very obviously a very small user group. There are huge missing things in DP though, and MOTU don't seem to be interested in addressing them. Your own issues with Snapshot automation is a great example, Apple is currently bragging about Logic's newly introduced snapshot automation, DP users and MOTU should have huge bragging rights there, but even if Logic's implementation is not great now they can at least claim that it will get better.
DP still cannot absolute snap notes to a grid. Yes to a lot of us this is a low priority feature, but to most people under 30 I've talked to the fact that DP still doesn't have what they consider a basic feature is mind boggling.

There's also the whole Chunks issue, MOTU don't really address the workflow scenarios that happen with it. Using Chunks almost requires V-Racks. V-Racks cannot do track automation. To a certain degree, without Chunks, DP all of a sudden just becomes an awkwardly set up DAW, Tracks Window VS Sequence Window. With Chunks and sample libraries DP becomes very capable of handling huge projects, 90 minutes of a film score etc.
What I'm saying is if MOTU got it together they could show three or more different ways people are using DP. Sitting down with some film score guy and showing the process, showing a recording studio process, showing a rock musician using it like Pro Tools etc. Showing pop composers using it.. and I don't mean in a sales pitch way, like actually showing the workflow. IMO anyway for a lot of people there's a big WTF?? when they first pop into DP compared to straight linear DAWs.
Old 4 days ago
  #274
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
Yeah, hard to say, I just wish it competed squarely. DP has very obviously a very small user group. There are huge missing things in DP though, and MOTU don't seem to be interested in addressing them. Your own issues with Snapshot automation is a great example, Apple is currently bragging about Logic's newly introduced snapshot automation, DP users and MOTU should have huge bragging rights there, but even if Logic's implementation is not great now they can at least claim that it will get better.
DP still cannot absolute snap notes to a grid. Yes to a lot of us this is a low priority feature, but to most people under 30 I've talked to the fact that DP still doesn't have what they consider a basic feature is mind boggling.

There's also the whole Chunks issue, MOTU don't really address the workflow scenarios that happen with it. Using Chunks almost requires V-Racks. V-Racks cannot do track automation. To a certain degree, without Chunks, DP all of a sudden just becomes an awkwardly set up DAW, Tracks Window VS Sequence Window. With Chunks and sample libraries DP becomes very capable of handling huge projects, 90 minutes of a film score etc.
What I'm saying is if MOTU got it together they could show three or more different ways people are using DP. Sitting down with some film score guy and showing the process, showing a recording studio process, showing a rock musician using it like Pro Tools etc. Showing pop composers using it.. and I don't mean in a sales pitch way, like actually showing the workflow. IMO anyway for a lot of people there's a big WTF?? when they first pop into DP compared to straight linear DAWs.
Well written and agree with most of it.

Another thing that doesn't help DP much is the lack of third party learning tools. When DP9 dropped all Groove 3 had was a bare-bones update video and not a full-on one. And even then a lot of what DP has to offer doesn't get explained.

Compare this with what PT has - there's so much more out there in support materials. Take for example - easy to find an explanation of most PT workings. DP? I don't think there's more than maybe a dozen videos. And certainly nothing that I've found in the way of explaining how different users like film/pop/rock composers and recordists use it.

Back to the Motunation thing - they say more often than not to look it up in the manual. That would be great except the manual was poorly organized
in the print version and the pdf one isn't much better. Depending on which revision of DP9 one has the index in the back doesn't have active hyperlinks to the pages. Couple that with you really have to know what you're asking about with the correct terminology and trying to find help on one's own isn't easy.
Old 4 days ago
  #275
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by toodamnhip View Post
But For sure there is something old or “not right” about MOTU.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

If you look at hardware manufacturers, too many are actually 'old' and lagging behind - stuck with flipping USB2, while Thunderbolt offers massive, measurable technological advantages. Motu is on the ball.


As for DP, not having a primary focus on EDM does not make a company 'old'.

I find Logic's workflow and usability absolutely horrible. DP seems to be more aimed at real engineers and musicians, who want to clearly see how things are routed, who want good, visible input monitoring (Meter Bridge) for 'old fashioned' tasks like actually recording an instrument or a voice. I personally hate LPX's instrument tracks, this is not 'modern', it's 'dumbed down', IMHO (as I said before, I wouldn't object to having Instrument tracks as an option, for those who prefer it..)


Several companies that produce competing DAWs stick with '90s technology for copy protection (hardware protection with a USB dongle). Giving all the issues, and the current tech available (LPX is the market leader in modern, user friendly, unobtrusive copy protection technology), this is not only old fashioned, it's outright idiotic. I personally would never buy a crap product like that.





The whole point of being in the 'top three' is also nonsensical. Either it's great software, or it's not.

Providing a product aimed primarily at professional film scoring and sound engineering folks, as opposed to countless amateur EDM home recordists (not a value judgement..) means a smaller market. Nothing wrong with that. Manley, Apple, Lavry, BMW never aimed at being in the 'top 3'. Providing a quality product for their target audience makes more sense than market share.



As for comparing forums - there are, obviously, irrational discussions and fights everywhere, but I never had the impression that any of the moderators on GS actually has a screw loose.
Adults playing police is also something I haven't seen a lot.
Old 4 days ago
  #276
Gear Nut
 
KV626's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
DP still cannot absolute snap notes to a grid. Yes to a lot of us this is a low priority feature, but to most people under 30 I've talked to the fact that DP still doesn't have what they consider a basic feature is mind boggling.
It should be a no-brainer, regardless of your age, and regardless of the type of work you do with your DAW, this is an extremely useful feature, and a time-saver. I'm scoring films, doing harstyle, all in Pro Tools. And I'm above 30. Where do I fit in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
With Chunks and sample libraries DP becomes very capable of handling huge projects, 90 minutes of a film score etc.
It also becomes very unstable and painfully slow.
Old 4 days ago
  #277
Lives for gear
 
Robert Randolph's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
10.13 has been the biggest nightmare since Apple went to OSX. 10.13 looks like an iPhone to me and I speculate that's exactly what Apple wants.
Seems strange to me... My 10.11, 10.12 and 10.13 look indistinguishable from each other.

I don't understand how 10.13 looks more iphoneish at all

However, they certainly are starting to cross ios and macos, that's coming to fruition in 10.14 by opening up some of the ios dev stuff to macos.
Old 4 days ago
  #278
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
Seems strange to me... My 10.11, 10.12 and 10.13 look indistinguishable from each other.

I don't understand how 10.13 looks more iphoneish at all

However, they certainly are starting to cross ios and macos, that's coming to fruition in 10.14 by opening up some of the ios dev stuff to macos.
Maybe "looks" isn't the right word and I don't want to misinform anybody about a new OS.

Just to let you know how much of a fogey I am, I miss OS9. I'm not a programmer but I have been a "user level expert" because I spent so many years doing tech support. With OS9 you could easily get under the hood to fix things if you knew what you were doing.

But I think that's the key. I speculate that from Apple's point of view, giving the user easy access to the system causes them more problems than not. For example, I think it was 10.7 or 10.8 when Apple hid the user library folder. Why did they do that? I can only guess that too many people who didn't know what they were doing were getting in there and screwing things up.

Apple continues that trend with 10.13. If developers didn't have to outright update their drivers, they at least had to inform customers how to install drivers under the new OS. 10.13 was a big enough change that many developers didn't support the new OS out of the gate. 10.13 broke things like copy protection, list organization, and who knows what else.

For a power user, things like new iTunes features may not be enough to justify having to deal with third party plug-in compatibility, driver installation hassle etc.

Guess I'm just old...

Dave
Old 4 days ago
  #279
Gear Nut
 
KV626's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
Maybe "looks" isn't the right word and I don't want to misinform anybody about a new OS.

Just to let you know how much of a fogey I am, I miss OS9. I'm not a programmer but I have been a "user level expert" because I spent so many years doing tech support. With OS9 you could easily get under the hood to fix things if you knew what you were doing.

But I think that's the key. I speculate that from Apple's point of view, giving the user easy access to the system causes them more problems than not. For example, I think it was 10.7 or 10.8 when Apple hid the user library folder. Why did they do that? I can only guess that too many people who didn't know what they were doing were getting in there and screwing things up.

Apple continues that trend with 10.13. If developers didn't have to outright update their drivers, they at least had to inform customers how to install drivers under the new OS. 10.13 was a big enough change that many developers didn't support the new OS out of the gate. 10.13 broke things like copy protection, list organization, and who knows what else.

For a power user, things like new iTunes features may not be enough to justify having to deal with third party plug-in compatibility, driver installation hassle etc.

Guess I'm just old...

Dave
No I guess you're just a power user, someone who knows what he's doing on his computer, and what his computer is actually doing under the hood.

I'm not sure I miss OS 9, except maybe for a nostalgia moment every now and then , but back then I was doing electroacoustic music on Irix SGIs as well as Macs. I was, dare I say, "fluent" in Unix when OS X came out. It was such a huge step forward compared to OS 9... But as Apple grew bigger and bigger, so was the user base, and most people have absolutely no idea of what's happening when they're pushing a key on their keyboard... There's a fine line between "making things simpler" and "dumbing things down". I honestly think Apple is aiming at making the OS experience an enjoyable affair for most users. But a "simplified" OS experience is irrelevant for some of us, in fact it ends up counter-productive more often than not.

The last OS I really enjoyed using was Mavericks, everything that came after, came with some frustration one way or another. Although I have to admit, despite what I've read countless times, I had absolutely no issue with El Capitan (using PT, DP and Logic), it was very fast and stable.

I hope Mojave will make up for the awful High Sierra.
Old 4 days ago
  #280
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post

The whole point of being in the 'top three' is also nonsensical. Either it's great software, or it's not.

Providing a product aimed primarily at professional film scoring and sound engineering folks, as opposed to countless amateur EDM home recordists (not a value judgement..) means a smaller market. Nothing wrong with that. Manley, Apple, Lavry, BMW never aimed at being in the 'top 3'. Providing a quality product for their target audience makes more sense than market share.
I have no idea when you started using DP so forgive me if I'm telling you something you already know, but DP up until the introduction of OSX was in the "top 4", at least here in the states. In 2000 or so I would say it went Pro Tools, DP, Cubase, Logic. People developed MAS plug ins at almost the same rate as VST etc. At that point DP had the advantage of being the only dongle free top DAW as well. DP also had partnered with Digidesign to a degree that allowed DP to run on it's hardware as a front end for Pro Tools, allowing for much better MIDI than PT offered at the time, so everyone knew about DP.

The purchase of Logic by Apple, the OS changes from DP9 to OSX, and chip changes a few years later all affected public perception of DP. Pre Logic buy out DP was seen as the most mac like DAW besides maybe Opcode, afterwards Logic was/is literally considered the 'natural fit' in OSX.

So some of us remember DP being a much bigger player in the DAW market than they are now. IMO from what I can tell DP probably 10nth at this point, Cubase, Reaper, Pro Tools, Logic, Studio One, Live, Reason, even Fruity Loops being bigger sellers with a better market presence. DP is no longer offered in Guitar Center here in the states where I live.

Not saying it's dying, just that some of us remember it being on the ascent.
Old 4 days ago
  #281
Lives for gear
 
Robert Randolph's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
Maybe "looks" isn't the right word and I don't want to misinform anybody about a new OS.

Just to let you know how much of a fogey I am, I miss OS9. I'm not a programmer but I have been a "user level expert" because I spent so many years doing tech support. With OS9 you could easily get under the hood to fix things if you knew what you were doing.

But I think that's the key. I speculate that from Apple's point of view, giving the user easy access to the system causes them more problems than not. For example, I think it was 10.7 or 10.8 when Apple hid the user library folder. Why did they do that? I can only guess that too many people who didn't know what they were doing were getting in there and screwing things up.

Apple continues that trend with 10.13. If developers didn't have to outright update their drivers, they at least had to inform customers how to install drivers under the new OS. 10.13 was a big enough change that many developers didn't support the new OS out of the gate. 10.13 broke things like copy protection, list organization, and who knows what else.

For a power user, things like new iTunes features may not be enough to justify having to deal with third party plug-in compatibility, driver installation hassle etc.

Guess I'm just old...

Dave
Ok, I see what you're saying. I thought that you literally meant looks, as in how the OS appears to the eye.

I agree with you for sure. They've done some strange things that really make life harder for developers (but potentially easy for 'average' users).

Par for the course I guess. I'm still willing to put up with A LOT to not use Windows.
Old 4 days ago
  #282
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
So some of us remember DP being a much bigger player in the DAW market than they are now.
You're making many good points. I started with DP4. The main difference may be that I'm in Europe - DP was never as popular over here as in the US. In my whole time of using DP, I've only met two other DP users here in Europe - one being the sound engineer friend of mine who recommended it to me in the first place (he stopped using DP when he moved to PCs, before DP was cross platform - he's on Cubase now..).

Last edited by stratology; 4 days ago at 06:09 PM.. Reason: remembered there was a 2nd one :-)
Old 4 days ago
  #283
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
I miss OS9.
There are things about the Finder in OS9 that are still, arguably, better than the OS X Finder - like only one window can display one folder. More logical, intuitive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
I'm not a programmer but I have been a "user level expert" because I spent so many years doing tech support. With OS9 you could easily get under the hood to fix things if you knew what you were doing.
I remember speaking to troubleshooting veterans who started in the OS9 days - horror stories about troubleshooting modem scripts...

Each OS has it's difficulties. Classic Mac OS was designed as a single user system, a multi user system is more complex by default.

But the basic structure of OS X, with the 3 Library levels, is not difficult to grasp.



Quote:
Originally Posted by magicd View Post
But I think that's the key. I speculate that from Apple's point of view, giving the user easy access to the system causes them more problems than not. For example, I think it was 10.7 or 10.8 when Apple hid the user library folder. Why did they do that? I can only guess that too many people who didn't know what they were doing were getting in there and screwing things up.
The vast majority of users are non-technical, and Apple is very aware of that. The basic motivation for OS X was to have a modern multi user OS that is capable of multitasking and multithreading. Deciding to build it on Unix (BeOS was considered, but Gassee overplayed his hand ) creates a complex structure, hiding things is a meaningful way to make it look more straightforward than it is. Root level Unix folders like /bin and /var have been hidden ever since OS X was first released.

At the same time, for power users like yourself, it's easy to drag a hidden ~/Library into the Finder sidebar for easy access, or to create visible aliases to frequently used hidden Unix folders that a sysadmin might want to access.


With the Unix foundation, Terminal.app and free Developer Tools, it's actually easier to get deep under the hood than it was in the OS 9 days.
Old 4 days ago
  #284
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post

I remember speaking to troubleshooting veterans who started in the OS9 days - horror stories about troubleshooting modem scripts...
Thread drift!

I'm not a trained computer guy. Fortunately I've never had to troubleshoot a modem script (what is that anyway?) My background is audio engineering and communications. My introduction to computers was based strictly around supporting DP. I actually took pride in knowing relatively little about computers while becoming a DP support expert. Once I learned the trivia of how DP worked in the computer, the bulk of the job was communicating with customers. No OS or application is perfect but once I got the hang of it became fairly easy getting DP up and running on a Mac (and I am talking about 24+ years ago).

Windows has become a lot easier to use and I use it now (ugh). But the early versions of Windows were a real pain to troubleshoot. The Mac users I spoke to were typically like myself - music people who happened to own a computer. I never spoke to a customer who described themselves as a "Mac expert".

Windows customers on the other hand would often start the conversation with "I'm a Windows expert..." I got the general impression that even if you were a Windows expert it was still a pain. I'd say "What kind of PC do you have?" The answer was often "My brother in-law built it from parts". How tempting to tell the customer to get his brother in law to figure out what was broken or incompatible...

But again, I'm not here to slag Windows. I'm really just exposing my own ignorance about computers in general.

Another great customer quote: "I don't want to learn how to be a digital audio engineer. I just want to plug my guitar into the computer and make a CD"

Dave
Old 4 days ago
  #285
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post

Several companies that produce competing DAWs stick with '90s technology for copy protection (hardware protection with a USB dongle). Giving all the issues, and the current tech available (LPX is the market leader in modern, user friendly, unobtrusive copy protection technology), this is not only old fashioned, it's outright idiotic. I personally would never buy a crap product like that.
I would rather have a dongle (iLok or the Steinberg one) than what DP uses or the others that use a keyfile. Want to know why? With a dongle I can work from my clone backup if needs be. With the DP system if I need to work from my clone I have to re-enter my user info and put my system online to authorize it. Or if I'm trying different OSX versions I have to redo my DP authorization. Right pain in the arse if you ask me.
Old 4 days ago
  #286
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I would rather have a dongle ..
I'm currently trying to help a professional engineer/studio owner with USB dongle problems that could not be resolved by contacting their expensive, paid support repeatedly.


Technology that only works in theory, not in actual, real life applications, is not an appropriate choice for professionals.


If it doesn't work, it's irrelevant how it could work in a potential imaginary theoretical situation.


I'm aware of professionals who buy software, but end up using pirated versions of the same software, because these are more reliable, due to hardware dongle issues.


And, as I mentioned before, the thing to measure 'old vs new' by is software with decent, modern copy protection, like Logic - you can download, install and run it without issue on any of your Macs. Uncomplicated. That's how paying customers should be treated.



So, coming back to DP: I'm happy with the relative ease of use and reliability of its copy protection, but an improvement would be to get rid of the serial number, and make DP available through the Mac App Store.
Old 4 days ago
  #287
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
I'm currently trying to help a professional engineer/studio owner with USB dongle problems that could not be resolved by contacting their expensive, paid support repeatedly.


Technology that only works in theory, not in actual, real life applications, is not an appropriate choice for professionals.


If it doesn't work, it's irrelevant how it could work in a potential imaginary theoretical situation.


I'm aware of professionals who buy software, but end up using pirated versions of the same software, because these are more reliable, due to hardware dongle issues.


And, as I mentioned before, the thing to measure 'old vs new' by is software with decent, modern copy protection, like Logic - you can download, install and run it without issue on any of your Macs. Uncomplicated. That's how paying customers should be treated.



So, coming back to DP: I'm happy with the relative ease of use and reliability of its copy protection, but an improvement would be to get rid of the serial number, and make DP available through the Mac App Store.
Dude - there's nothing imaginary or theoretical about what I wrote. Been there and done that many times and if one is trying out OSX updates not having to chase down authorizations for s/w makes that process way easier.

If you're aware of so-called pros using pirated s/w then I have zero use for you or your opinions. Either pay for what you use or don't use it at all. Doing what you're talking about is illegal no matter how you slice it. It's like the old thing your parents told you: just because others are doing it doesn't make it right.

And make DP available through the Mac App Store - do you really want Apple to have it's fingers in that pie? Besides they already have a daw.
Old 4 days ago
  #288
Lives for gear
 
nightchef's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
If you're aware of so-called pros using pirated s/w then I have zero use for you or your opinions. Either pay for what you use or don't use it at all. Doing what you're talking about is illegal no matter how you slice it. It's like the old thing your parents told you: just because others are doing it doesn't make it right.
He's talking about people who *did* pay for the software, but find the software impossible to use through the paid-for authorization system, and so resort to the black-market version so they can use what they paid for. If you want to claim that supporting piracy is unacceptable even in this scenario, OK, I guess that's a viable position. But "pay for what you use or don't use it at all" is just a flat-out irrelevant response.
Old 4 days ago
  #289
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Dude - there's nothing imaginary or theoretical about what I wrote.
Common issues, like hardware issues, or issues with their servers, are independent of the disk that you install the software on.



Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Either pay for what you use or don't use it at all.
Maybe you should read first before responding.



You overlooked the part where I stated that these are paying customers.

They (not I) use pirated versions of the software they bought, because using iLok is too great a risk for them, in terms of reliability.

There is no moral justification, I never said there was, and I don't condone the behaviour - at all.

In fact , I find that using pirated versions of apps that one bought is utterly idiotic. I mentioned it to explain the lengths some people go to just to make iLok protected software usable in a professional environment.


The truly professional thing to do, IMHO, is to avoid crap software like PACE altogether.




Did I mention that maybe you should read first before responding?




Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
And make DP available through the Mac App Store - do you really want Apple to have it's fingers in that pie? Besides they already have a daw.
The 30% Apple takes include worldwide distribution, copy protection, accounting, etc.
I personally don't know enough about running a world wide software business to evaluate whether this is more or less expensive than going on your own - especially considering the impact that the easy access and wide exposure has on sales.



You also, once again, missed my point: that MAS distribution is a better solution for copy protection than hardware dongles or serial numbers or authorisation files, because it's so easy to recover in an emergency situation.
Old 3 days ago
  #290
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightchef View Post
He's talking about people who *did* pay for the software, but find the software impossible to use through the paid-for authorization system, and so resort to the black-market version so they can use what they paid for. If you want to claim that supporting piracy is unacceptable even in this scenario, OK, I guess that's a viable position. But "pay for what you use or don't use it at all" is just a flat-out irrelevant response.
I still stand by what I wrote: either pay for what you use or don't use it at all. That's not irrelevant at all. There's never any justification for using pirated s/w. I'll be surprised if the posts discussing this don't get eliminated. In most forum I inhabit even the mere mention of pirated/hacked s/w gets said posts deleted and a warning from a moderator. But I guess the mods here don't care about such things.

All pirated s/w does is makes it more expensive for those of us that do the right thing.
Old 3 days ago
  #291
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about.

If you look at hardware manufacturers, too many are actually 'old' and lagging behind - stuck with flipping USB2, while Thunderbolt offers massive, measurable technological advantages. Motu is on the ball.


As for DP, not having a primary focus on EDM does not make a company 'old'.

I find Logic's workflow and usability absolutely horrible. DP seems to be more aimed at real engineers and musicians, who want to clearly see how things are routed, who want good, visible input monitoring (Meter Bridge) for 'old fashioned' tasks like actually recording an instrument or a voice. I personally hate LPX's instrument tracks, this is not 'modern', it's 'dumbed down', IMHO (as I said before, I wouldn't object to having Instrument tracks as an option, for those who prefer it..)


Several companies that produce competing DAWs stick with '90s technology for copy protection (hardware protection with a USB dongle). Giving all the issues, and the current tech available (LPX is the market leader in modern, user friendly, unobtrusive copy protection technology), this is not only old fashioned, it's outright idiotic. I personally would never buy a crap product like that.





The whole point of being in the 'top three' is also nonsensical. Either it's great software, or it's not.

Providing a product aimed primarily at professional film scoring and sound engineering folks, as opposed to countless amateur EDM home recordists (not a value judgement..) means a smaller market. Nothing wrong with that. Manley, Apple, Lavry, BMW never aimed at being in the 'top 3'. Providing a quality product for their target audience makes more sense than market share.



As for comparing forums - there are, obviously, irrational discussions and fights everywhere, but I never had the impression that any of the moderators on GS actually has a screw loose.
Adults playing police is also something I haven't seen a lot.
You have “NO” idea what I’m talking about when I say DP has fallen behind? Really? And then you have to make a false argument that because I want DP to be better, it means I want EDM for children?
I am not going to list all the latest ad greatest features DP has fallen behind on. And as for me personally, I only ask for them to fix snap shot automation, automation pasting without creating ramps, and accurate read out of automation data for waves and other plugs. If you think continually being far back on the top DAWs list is a “good sign”, we surely think differently. I love DP. I am not here to attack ti. But “loving” DP means it must stay competitive. By the way, advertising is also a terrible weakness of MOTU. So many great , under the hood features. I have advocated for MOTU to make ad campaigns for many of the un known features. Whatever they do, being last in so many fav daw lists is not a good sing and does not mean they have to make DP for EDM.
Old 3 days ago
  #292
Gear Maniac
That's it! I'm now going to spend all my time writing banging EDM tracks in DP, just so I can post record sales figures here.
Old 3 days ago
  #293
Lives for gear
 
Monkey Man's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
In most forum I inhabit even the mere mention of pirated/hacked s/w gets said posts deleted and a warning from a moderator. But I guess the mods here don't care about such things.
They do, Jack.

Just 3 weeks ago another member who I shan't name and I reported a dude who jumped onto the Waves v10 thread and said (paraphrasing him), "With this WUP thing and all the confusion it's no wonder peeps are running two grand's worth of Waves plugins for nothing" (like it's Waves' fault - amazing).

He then proclaimed, "Why would anyone pay for software that can be cracked? I know I don't."

I responded by pointing out that he therefore wouldn't pay for 99%+ of software 'cause virtually all of it gets cracked. He didn't contribute anymore, but I and the other member I mentioned were disgusted and proceeded to report his ass, and he hasn't been heard of since. I think his posts "disappeared" too.

Maybe it's a matter of reporting those peeps 'cause let's face it, the forum's daily content is huge and the mod team would have to virtually work full-time at it in order to catch everything.
Old 3 days ago
  #294
Lives for gear
 
nightchef's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I still stand by what I wrote: either pay for what you use or don't use it at all.
I agree with this sentiment 100%. I just don't understand how it's a relevant response to an anecdote about people who *did* pay for what they're using.

EDIT: And as I said before, you can make a reasonable case that resorting to pirated versions unacceptably validates piracy even in a situation where you have bought the software and have the right to use it. But that's a different argument, and has nothing to do with the moral turpitude of using something you haven't paid for.
Old 3 days ago
  #295
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by toodamnhip View Post
But “loving” DP means it must stay competitive. By the way, advertising is also a terrible weakness of MOTU. So many great , under the hood features.
Bingo!!!

My impression is that folks who request new features for DP want it to remain competitive!

It's unfortunate that the typical response to this over at the other forum misses that intent. Same as it ever was will never be. Performer became Digital Performer. The addition of built-in pitch correction in DP 4.6.1 (?) was a "Yee hah!" moment.

Maschineworking has shed light on a time that DP was in the lead. It once was the premier MIDI DAW. Then the pace of development slowed down with little or no advances in MIDI functionality.

Wanting DP to survive, no, thrive, should not be greeted with scorn.
Old 3 days ago
  #296
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightchef View Post
I agree with this sentiment 100%. I just don't understand how it's a relevant response to an anecdote about people who *did* pay for what they're using.

EDIT: And as I said before, you can make a reasonable case that resorting to pirated versions unacceptably validates piracy even in a situation where you have bought the software and have the right to use it. But that's a different argument, and has nothing to do with the moral turpitude of using something you haven't paid for.
But it does have something to do with the moral turpitude - one still used s/w they hadn't paid for. Yes you finally paid for it but still shouldn't have used the pirated/cracked s/w anyways.
Old 3 days ago
  #297
Lives for gear
 
nightchef's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
But it does have something to do with the moral turpitude - one still used s/w they hadn't paid for. Yes you finally paid for it but still shouldn't have used the pirated/cracked s/w anyways.
As I suspected, you didn't read stratology's post carefully. He was not talking about a scenario in which the phrase "you finally paid for it" would make any sense.
Old 3 days ago
  #298
Lives for gear
 
gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Controller 11 View Post
My impression is that folks who request new features for DP want it to remain competitive!
I request new features because I need them or because existing features don't let me work fast enough. Things that slow me down piss me off and demotivate me when the ideas are flowing. I really don't care what other people use or how competitive MOTU is with their features, unless it's something basic MOTU should have implemented ages ago in DP (like trim pots, which other DAWs have).

I might not like the other software and find it excruciating to write songs in based on my workflow, so I wouldn't use that software anyway just because of one or two features it has that DP doesn't. We all have to use what tools allow us to easily get the music out, which seems to vary based on the individual.

The only reason competitiveness might make sense (as you mentioned) is so the software stays in production. With DP, I think plenty of people use it and don't see it going anywhere anytime soon, especially with their new interfaces performing so well, customers may buy the software to go with the interface. That's how I started with DP many years ago.
Old 3 days ago
  #299
Lives for gear
 
gradivus's Avatar
 

I liked the 9-X switch as well, short of some of the system tweaks we lost. The real bitch was waiting for software developers to put out 64-bit apps when the OS supported it, which took far too long imo. Mavericks was pretty good for me as well but I wasn't doing much audio on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KV626 View Post
No I guess you're just a power user, someone who knows what he's doing on his computer, and what his computer is actually doing under the hood.

I'm not sure I miss OS 9, except maybe for a nostalgia moment every now and then , but back then I was doing electroacoustic music on Irix SGIs as well as Macs. I was, dare I say, "fluent" in Unix when OS X came out. It was such a huge step forward compared to OS 9... But as Apple grew bigger and bigger, so was the user base, and most people have absolutely no idea of what's happening when they're pushing a key on their keyboard... There's a fine line between "making things simpler" and "dumbing things down". I honestly think Apple is aiming at making the OS experience an enjoyable affair for most users. But a "simplified" OS experience is irrelevant for some of us, in fact it ends up counter-productive more often than not.

The last OS I really enjoyed using was Mavericks, everything that came after, came with some frustration one way or another. Although I have to admit, despite what I've read countless times, I had absolutely no issue with El Capitan (using PT, DP and Logic), it was very fast and stable.

I hope Mojave will make up for the awful High Sierra.
Old 3 days ago
  #300
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
I request new features because I need them or because existing features don't let me work fast enough. Things that slow me down piss me off and demotivate me when the ideas are flowing. I really don't care what other people use or how competitive MOTU is with their features, unless it's something basic MOTU should have implemented ages ago in DP (like trim pots, which other DAWs have).

I might not like the other software and find it excruciating to write songs in based on my workflow, so I wouldn't use that software anyway just because of one or two features it has that DP doesn't. We all have to use what tools allow us to easily get the music out, which seems to vary based on the individual.

The only reason competitiveness might make sense (as you mentioned) is so the software stays in production. With DP, I think plenty of people use it and don't see it going anywhere anytime soon, especially with their new interfaces performing so well, customers may buy the software to go with the interface. That's how I started with DP many years ago.
Replace "competitive" with "responsive". I didn't literally mean competitive but rather the wish for DP development to be more responsive my needs. You're very clear about what you need that is currently lacking.

My projects are primarily MIDI with software instruments. DP's MIDI is functional and powerful but more mouse-click intensive and limited in comparison to Logic or Cubase. So, I don't use DP very much these days.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump