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DP9.12 development - end of line?
Old 29th December 2016
  #1
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musicman691's Avatar
DP9.12 development - end of line?

I know MOTU can't speak to this as such but I have to ask - is anything being done to fix the issues raised by DP9.12? It seems like along time has passed with no movement by MOTU on an update. Amongst other issues is the next-gen pregen that has been causing issues severe enough that a lot of people have gone back to DP9.02. I know MOTU says that it's on any third party developers to fix any issue but a simple preference choice to globally turn off pregen like was in DP9.02 would go a long way to helping things. The work-around that MOTU says to use is a pain in the bunghole.

Or has development and bug fixing on DP9 reached the end of the line with nothing more until the next whole number version? Is MOTU holding out until Winter NAMM 2017?
Old 4th January 2017
  #2
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They just hired some new developers for their audio software line, so that's probably what's been holding up bugfixing.
It's all speculation, but NAMM is in a couple weeks and they do like to have things for it, so a bugfix update is possible.

For what it's worth, my workflow isn't too hindered by 9.12 issues, occasionally the CPU meter is all over the place, but it hasn't affected performance for me.
In no way am I saying people aren't experiencing issues, just that it's not across the board issue wise.
Old 4th January 2017
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
They just hired some new developers for their audio software line, so that's probably what's been holding up bugfixing.
It's all speculation, but NAMM is in a couple weeks and they do like to have things for it, so a bugfix update is possible.

For what it's worth, my workflow isn't too hindered by 9.12 issues, occasionally the CPU meter is all over the place, but it hasn't affected performance for me.
In no way am I saying people aren't experiencing issues, just that it's not across the board issue wise.
Just hired new developers - that means there's nothing coming for quite a while. 9.12 has been out far too long with known issues reproduceable by MOTU that haven't been fixed. New hires only means it'll be an even longer wait for the fixes. I don't recall NAMM meaning bug fix releases; whole number versions - yes; new features - maybe. I just hope it's not a paid update which MOTU did once some time back for DP.

As to you not being affected by 9.12 issues that's understandable as is not everyone having them. Thing is there are quite a number of people who do experience issues with how they use DP that need to be fixed. I've learned not to pay attention to cpu metering in any daw s/w as they can be wildly off the mark.
Old 4th January 2017
  #4
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DP 9.12 and Sierra is the best DP ever. No issues here. Been using since 88' The pros over at M-nation have great posts on fixing a system to work without issues on 9.12 and Sierra.
Old 5th January 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waxman View Post
DP 9.12 and Sierra is the best DP ever. No issues here. Been using since 88' The pros over at M-nation have great posts on fixing a system to work without issues on 9.12 and Sierra.
I have zero use for that other (which shall remain nameless) DP forum.
Old 5th January 2017
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I have zero use for that other (which shall remain nameless) DP forum.
It's not about you...
Old 6th January 2017
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I know MOTU can't speak to this as such but I have to ask - is anything being done to fix the issues raised by DP9.12? It seems like along time has passed with no movement by MOTU on an update. Amongst other issues is the next-gen pregen that has been causing issues severe enough that a lot of people have gone back to DP9.02. I know MOTU says that it's on any third party developers to fix any issue but a simple preference choice to globally turn off pregen like was in DP9.02 would go a long way to helping things. The work-around that MOTU says to use is a pain in the bunghole.

Or has development and bug fixing on DP9 reached the end of the line with nothing more until the next whole number version? Is MOTU holding out until Winter NAMM 2017?
I agree with you, that is one of the reasons I left DP after 20 years.

Last year at the Namm show, I saw their presentation of DP9.12 with all the new "features" and the promise of a new DP later that year. Well, as you may know when DP9.12 was released... well it was a fiasco, then month after month that update with all the fixes never came, not to mention their next BIG update.

I got tired of Motu honestly, when I saw their DP presentation at Namm last year it was a revelation for me, I don't want to be that guy with glasses and pants above his belly playing "modern" jazz amazed by how great the new "bass flanger pedal" plug in sounds.

I had enough of these guys, I can't wait for them while all the other DAWs develop amazing features every month!

Just take a look at Studio One for god sake! Or what about Ableton Live? Have you seen their loop browser? take a look at Reaper: stability and features, intelligent and modern.

How many people use DP? 100? 150? Well there's a reason why.

No Sr., I'm tired, I was a devoted and loyal user of DP for years, come on! Steven Slate made a version of their Raven because of me! When we talked about it, he said they made a survey and nobody asked for DP, I begged him to make it happen.

Hope MOTU hire (young) developers with the energy to innovate, like they did 30 years ago.

Sorry for the rant.

Last edited by delcosmos; 7th January 2017 at 07:13 AM..
Old 6th January 2017
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post
I agree with you, that is one of the reasons I left DP after 20 years.

Last year at the Namm show, I saw their presentation of DP9.12 with all the new "features" and the promise of a new DP later that year. Well, as you may know when DP9.12 was released... well it was a fiasco, then month after month that update with all the fixes never came, not to mention their next BIG update.

I got tired of Motu honestly, when I saw their DP presentation at Namm last year it was a revelation for me, I don't want to be that guy with glasses and pants above his belly playing "modern" jazz amazed by how great the new "bass flanger pedal" plug in sounds.

I had enough of these guys, I can't wait for them while all the other DAWs develop amazing features every month!

Just take a look at Studio One for god sake! Or what about Ableton Live's? Have you seen their loop browser? take a look at Reaper: stability and features, intelligent and modern.

How many people use DP? 100? 150? Well there's a reason why.

No Sr., I'm tired, I was a devoted and loyal user of DP for years, come on! Steven Slate made a version of their Raven because of me! When we talked about it, he said they made a survey and nobody asked for DP, I begged him to make it happen.

Hope MOTU hire (young) developers with the energy to innovate, like they did 30 years ago.

Sorry for the rant.
No need to be sorry for the rant. It's because of things like this that I left ProTools for all my new work and went to DP, especially given most of my work any more is with MIDI instruments and PT's implementation of MIDI is lacking to say the least. Not looking forward to changing daws again if I can help it.

Sending you a PM because there are some things I can't say here and I'll explain in the PM.

Last edited by delcosmos; 7th January 2017 at 07:13 AM..
Old 6th January 2017
  #9
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Last DP9

Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post
I agree with you, that is one of the reasons I left DP after 20 years.

Last year at the Namm show, I saw their presentation of DP9.12 with all the new "features" and the promise of a new DP later that year. Well, as you may know when DP9.12 was released... well it was a fiasco, then month after month that update with all the fixes never came, not to mention their next BIG update.

I got tired of Motu honestly, when I saw their DP presentation at Namm last year it was a revelation for me, I don't want to be that guy with glasses and pants above his belly playing "modern" jazz amazed by how great the new "bass flanger pedal" plug in sounds.

I had enough of these guys, I can't wait for them while all the other DAWs develop amazing features every month!

Just take a look at Studio One for god sake! Or what about Ableton Live? Have you seen their loop browser? take a look at Reaper: stability and features, intelligent and modern.

How many people use DP? 100? 150? Well there's a reason why.

No Sr., I'm tired, I was a devoted and loyal user of DP for years, come on! Steven Slate made a version of their Raven because of me! When we talked about it, he said they made a survey and nobody asked for DP, I begged him to make it happen.

Hope MOTU hire (young) developers with the energy to innovate, like they did 30 years ago.

Sorry for the rant.
I agree with Del cosmos, I went to the Namm show last year and they showed us the new things about the new dp, I came back and i bought a more powerful computer dreaming about the new dp update, when it came out, i installed it and what was my surprise, the software didn't work as they told us at the Namm, I just have one thought about this: ITS A PIECE OF ****!!!!!

Last edited by delcosmos; 7th January 2017 at 07:16 AM..
Old 7th January 2017
  #10
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I'm thinking MOTU realizes they screwed up with DP9.12 and doesn't want to admit it. Maybe they don't know how to fix it? It's a shame because it could be a stellar program with the right kind of programming effort as well as listening to their users on what they REALLY want and not some fluff guitar pedals. Anybody that's serious about guitar work has emulation s/w and doesn't need what's in DP. Between NI Guitar Rig 5, Amplitube 3 & 4 and some other stuff I'm set.
Old 7th January 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
No need to be sorry for the rant. It's because of things like this that I left ProTools for all my new work and went to DP, especially given most of my work any more is with MIDI instruments and PT's implementation of MIDI is lacking to say the least. Not looking forward to changing daws again if I can help it.

Sending you a PM because there are some things I can't say here and I'll explain in the PM.
FYI PT Midi was developed by the creator of Performer, which is why all the "Quantize" type dialogs look so similar.
Old 7th January 2017
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
FYI PT Midi was developed by the creator of Performer, which is why all the "Quantize" type dialogs look so similar.
I knew it!!
Old 7th January 2017
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
FYI PT Midi was developed by the creator of Performer, which is why all the "Quantize" type dialogs look so similar.
That explains a bit but also confuses me - how did the PT developers (Digidesign) screw up their MIDI implementation given they did so well with DP's? As a somewhat aside DP's MIDI implementation isn't perfect and could do with a thing or two from PT's but it's light-years ahead of PT's.

Less than two weeks to NAMM.
Old 7th January 2017
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post
I agree with you, that is one of the reasons I left DP after 20 years.

Last year at the Namm show, I saw their presentation of DP9.12 with all the new "features" and the promise of a new DP later that year. Well, as you may know when DP9.12 was released... well it was a fiasco, then month after month that update with all the fixes never came, not to mention their next BIG update.

I got tired of Motu honestly, when I saw their DP presentation at Namm last year it was a revelation for me, I don't want to be that guy with glasses and pants above his belly playing "modern" jazz amazed by how great the new "bass flanger pedal" plug in sounds.

I had enough of these guys, I can't wait for them while all the other DAWs develop amazing features every month!

Just take a look at Studio One for god sake! Or what about Ableton Live? Have you seen their loop browser? take a look at Reaper: stability and features, intelligent and modern.

How many people use DP? 100? 150? Well there's a reason why.

No Sr., I'm tired, I was a devoted and loyal user of DP for years, come on! Steven Slate made a version of their Raven because of me! When we talked about it, he said they made a survey and nobody asked for DP, I begged him to make it happen.

Hope MOTU hire (young) developers with the energy to innovate, like they did 30 years ago.

Sorry for the rant.
Interesting it's considered off topic the "alternate universe" post. DP 9.12 is working great for me an many others hence the "alternate universe" take. Not to say no one is experiencing DP issues but I am not. Few if any of the issues being touted in this post are fact but mostly opinion which is fine unless there is a squashing of opposing opinion. There are plenty of names for that kind of approach. Is responding by deleting an alternative view the best M.O.? Seems like it's really an "alternative universe" where censorship is the order of the day.

I can't thank you enough that "because of you" Slate made the DP version of the Raven. The MTi 2 works awesome and with Batch Commander is an crucial part of my workflow. The DAW's mentioned I own and use Studio One, PT 11 are nice DAW's but they don't compare with the power, stablility and elegance of DP 9.12. They have deal killers for day to day operation but as they develop an integrated eco system they may become great. Am I to understand the loop browsers in Ableton and Reaper is your reason for leaving DP? Do you really think there are only 100 to 150 users of DP? I am fascinated how quickly things light up when alternate posts appear in this area.
Old 7th January 2017
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by waxman View Post
Interesting it's considered off topic the "alternate universe" post. DP 9.12 is working great for me an many others hence the "alternate universe" take. Not to say no one is experiencing DP issues but I am not. Few if any of the issues being touted in this post are fact but mostly opinion which is fine unless there is a squashing of opposing opinion. There are plenty of names for that kind of approach. Is responding by deleting an alternative view the best M.O.? Seems like it's really an "alternative universe" where censorship is the order of the day.

I can't thank you enough that "because of you" Slate made the DP version of the Raven. The MTi 2 works awesome and with Batch Commander is an crucial part of my workflow. The DAW's mentioned I own and use Studio One, PT 11 are nice DAW's but they don't compare with the power, stablility and elegance of DP 9.12. They have deal killers for day to day operation but as they develop an integrated eco system they may become great. Am I to understand the loop browsers in Ableton and Reaper is your reason for leaving DP? Do you really think there are only 100 to 150 users of DP? I am fascinated how quickly things light up when alternate posts appear in this area.
With an explanation like this you are "on topic", posting things only you understand is "offtopic", sorry.

You are "welcome" regarding the Raven.

And btw, you are wrong, I didn't leave DP because they don't have a proper browser, I left because its a software that lost their way in 2005. As I said, I'm not impressed with their guitar pedal emulations or their (very late) emulation of an 1176.

It works for you? Great, come to this forum and share what are you making to make it work, you are welcome.
Old 8th January 2017
  #16
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Fair enough... I'm using a MacPro trashcan with DP 9.12. It is 100% stable and working great with Sierra. Their DP PreGen no latency native feature is a huge upgrade. Nobody does zero latency with no hit on the CPU. For input I use UAD Apollo 16 and the killer UAD mixer with 24 channels of Focusrite 828 ISA pres and a Apollo twin with 8 channels of ISA light pipe. A Slate Raven and Ebundle, UAD Octo and all the UAD plugs. It's a solid rig. Other then the DeEsser and the MW gate I don't use DP plugs. DP has never been about the plugs or VI's for me. For VI's BFD3, NI Ultimate, Omnisphere and Arturia. Mix to a NEVE 8816 summing mixer. So if you left DP 11 years ago how come you crack on it?
Old 8th January 2017
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by waxman View Post
Fair enough... I'm using a MacPro trashcan with DP 9.12. It is 100% stable and working great with Sierra. Their DP PreGen no latency native feature is a huge upgrade. Nobody does zero latency with no hit on the CPU. For input I use UAD Apollo 16 and the killer UAD mixer with 24 channels of Focusrite 828 ISA pres and a Apollo twin with 8 channels of ISA light pipe. A Slate Raven and Ebundle, UAD Octo and all the UAD plugs. It's a solid rig. Other then the DeEsser and the MW gate I don't use DP plugs. DP has never been about the plugs or VI's for me. For VI's BFD3, NI Ultimate, Omnisphere and Arturia. Mix to a NEVE 8816 summing mixer. So if you left DP 11 years ago how come you crack on it?
Hahaha, no! I left DP last year. What I meant is that imho dP development was freezed in 2005, their last great implementation was the pitch automation (which btw I love and think its the best).

I am surprised "Pregen" its working for you, even on Motunation a lot of people are complaining because it doesn't work properly, you can read there that MANY people went back to dp 9.02.

I am grateful with dp, I made my music carreer with that software but I personally think there's no more evolution and I want to get things like offline freeze, a working "hardware insert" function, faders with MORE resolution, a bigger headroom mixer, better audio automation, a dedicated audio browser, a propper way to color the entire track, an elegant way to make stems offline, VCA Faders, etc, etc.

As I said, I got tired to wait for all these and decided to jump, I'm still searching btw.

Happy new year.

Last edited by delcosmos; 8th January 2017 at 07:33 AM..
Old 8th January 2017
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post
Just take a look at Studio One for god sake! Or what about Ableton Live? Have you seen their loop browser? take a look at Reaper: stability and features, intelligent and modern.

How many people use DP? 100? 150? Well there's a reason why.
Oh god I was so you in 2000, DP 2.7 was a mess for me, not a massive mess, but I had never had DP do anything wrong before. I ended up moving to Emagic Logic, which worked in my favor since Apple bought them and quickly ported Logic to OSX, and I didn't have to use OS9 just to use DP. Logic was rock solid stable, ridiculously so. Logic 7 came out and it would crash when I wasn't using it, literally when I got up to get coffee one day, sequencer not running, it crashed.

Ableton Live started to get MIDI instruments and become more than a DJ tool, it was rock solid stable. Logic was used by me only to do more advanced MIDI things, and sometimes for it's low CPU use. Apple started dumbing it down in version 8, taking features away that might be confusing to a new user and not allowing the user to customize it as much as in the past. Then version 8 of Live came out, I was one of the only people in beta testing that was saying it was not stable enough, but it was released and after a year it never did stabilize, Ableton actually had a press release publicly apologizing and vowing to spend their time squashing bugs. In the mean time DP 7 came out and offered a lot of modern features DP was missing for me, DP8 was solid, and 9 hasn't been too bad for me. So I'm happily in DP9 and Live 9.

Point is, you're wrong, DP isn't outdated, they don't have a worse track record for stability than other DAWs, and none of them are inherently more forward thinking. Reaper is often unstable on OSX, as is Cubase, Studio One, Logic etc. On the PC side it's 100% not any better.

I stick with DP and Live because both offer features that Reaper, Cubase, Logic etc. do not have. In Live: Clips, Session View, Max For Live, and virtually no hiccups while the sequencer is running. DP on the other hand offers massively better MIDI in SysEx; polyphonic aftertouch; Chunks; Mix takes; a quickly customizable Mixer, Tracks, Sequencer windows; Clippings; and vastly better CPU use. Just try importing a project you're currently complaining about clipping the CPU into another DAW, especially Live, but Cubase and Studio One as well. Only Logic and Reaper on OSX use as little CPU, if you haven't done the tests or jumped around like I have you think DP is a hog, but it's not. For the most part it just acts like a bigger hog meter wise than it is.


Seriously, if you haven't jumped around you really do not know, every DAW goes through an unstable period, Logic has had a few, Cubase has finally matured on OSX, but they actually broke a promise to fix bugs in V3 that were "solved in the paid upgrade to 4", Studio One is complete hit or miss in OSX as is Reaper.... None of them are "bad", but all have version issues for some of their customers.
Old 8th January 2017
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
Oh god I was so you in 2000, DP 2.7 was a mess for me, not a massive mess, but I had never had DP do anything wrong before. I ended up moving to Emagic Logic, which worked in my favor since Apple bought them and quickly ported Logic to OSX, and I didn't have to use OS9 just to use DP. Logic was rock solid stable, ridiculously so. Logic 7 came out and it would crash when I wasn't using it, literally when I got up to get coffee one day, sequencer not running, it crashed.

Ableton Live started to get MIDI instruments and become more than a DJ tool, it was rock solid stable. Logic was used by me only to do more advanced MIDI things, and sometimes for it's low CPU use. Apple started dumbing it down in version 8, taking features away that might be confusing to a new user and not allowing the user to customize it as much as in the past. Then version 8 of Live came out, I was one of the only people in beta testing that was saying it was not stable enough, but it was released and after a year it never did stabilize, Ableton actually had a press release publicly apologizing and vowing to spend their time squashing bugs. In the mean time DP 7 came out and offered a lot of modern features DP was missing for me, DP8 was solid, and 9 hasn't been too bad for me. So I'm happily in DP9 and Live 9.

Point is, you're wrong, DP isn't outdated, they don't have a worse track record for stability than other DAWs, and none of them are inherently more forward thinking. Reaper is often unstable on OSX, as is Cubase, Studio One, Logic etc. On the PC side it's 100% not any better.

I stick with DP and Live because both offer features that Reaper, Cubase, Logic etc. do not have. In Live: Clips, Session View, Max For Live, and virtually no hiccups while the sequencer is running. DP on the other hand offers massively better MIDI in SysEx; polyphonic aftertouch; Chunks; Mix takes; a quickly customizable Mixer, Tracks, Sequencer windows; Clippings; and vastly better CPU use. Just try importing a project you're currently complaining about clipping the CPU into another DAW, especially Live, but Cubase and Studio One as well. Only Logic and Reaper on OSX use as little CPU, if you haven't done the tests or jumped around like I have you think DP is a hog, but it's not. For the most part it just acts like a bigger hog meter wise than it is.


Seriously, if you haven't jumped around you really do not know, every DAW goes through an unstable period, Logic has had a few, Cubase has finally matured on OSX, but they actually broke a promise to fix bugs in V3 that were "solved in the paid upgrade to 4", Studio One is complete hit or miss in OSX as is Reaper.... None of them are "bad", but all have version issues for some of their customers.
You forgot to add to your great post that I am wrong under YOUR point of view.

Every user is different, with different needs.
Believe me this is a battle I know how to fight, as I said many times, I used DP for almost 20 years (because on 93 and 94 I used Performer).
I know the software from top to bottom and it worked great all these years, like you, my perfect combo was DP rewired with Ableton Live.

Then, a year ago I produced an album for a very big latin artist along with a producer which worked exclusively with Protools, so I had to work with Protools too in order to keep the workflow with these guys, thats when I realized what I was missing! I realized that if I use Protools rewired with Live I was gaining a lot of features, like:

Offline freeze, commit, faders with a bigger resolution, I own a monstruous recording studio with tons of gear so finally I was able to use my fairchilds with the beautiful "hardware inserts" that Protools offers (I know DP implemented this lately but its a joke). Also I love the way you can open a new send on Protools, its very fast!! Yes, VI instruments implementation its a nightmare on Protools but I use VEPro and that saved my life.
Also, on the audio side, Protools kills DP, all the tools you get to automate regions and levels are amazing not to mention the clip gain (yes DP have clip gain too but its very ugly).
Clip fx? Well DP don't have anything like that. As I said, VCA faders, etc, etc.

The things I miss from DP?

1- Pitch automation.
2- Hardware Midi implementation, there DP is THE KING hands down.
3- the little sends knobs on the mixer.
4- DP plug in browser.
5- Plug in chain presets.
6- the beautiful way DP handles Delay Compensation, man I miss that :(

And Thats it.

We can argue for hours and as I said, our needs are different, but really guys, do not settle for less, motu owes you a lot compared with what other softwares offer.
Old 8th January 2017
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post

You forgot to add to your great post that I am wrong under YOUR point of view.

Every user is different, with different needs.
Believe me this is a battle I know how to fight, as I said many times, I used DP for almost 20 years (because on 93 and 94 I used Performer).
I know the software from top to bottom and it worked great all these years, like you, my perfect combo was DP rewired with Ableton Live.

Then, a year ago I produced an album for a very big latin artist along with a producer which worked exclusively with Protools, so I had to work with Protools too in order to keep the workflow with these guys, thats when I realized what I was missing! I realized that if I use Protools rewired with Live I was gaining a lot of features, like:
Features wise, if DP doesn't offer you ones that you like go ahead and deal with Pro Tools. Like I said I've used them all at one point or another, I'm not choosing DP and Live because that's all I've used. I also started in Performer 1.0 on a Mac+ as a kid, but that doesn't mean anything. You come on here acting like DAW X is more capable than DP, DP is outdated etc. then back track and start a comparison where you flat out admit DP has superior MIDI, so which is it? When it comes down to it the DAW is just a conduit for your creativity, and different needs are different. I do not own a recording studio, I compose electronic and rock music, and play it live. I have no need for Pro Tools, zilch. BTW Pro Tools took forever to get even passable MIDI support, but yeah today it's tits... back to my original point about chasing DAWs.

My whole point is your anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. So piling on to disrespect the DAW of choice for this sub forum when some DP user is talking about an unstable version for him is going to get a backlash. Not at all surprising, or uncalled for. I'm glad you're happy with Pro Tools, but you're being "that guy", you know the one who recently converted and can't imagine why anyone else would use...
Old 8th January 2017
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post
snippage

I realized that if I use Protools rewired with Live I was gaining a lot of features, like:

Offline freeze, commit, faders with a bigger resolution, I own a monstruous recording studio with tons of gear so finally I was able to use my fairchilds with the beautiful "hardware inserts" that Protools offers (I know DP implemented this lately but its a joke). Also I love the way you can open a new send on Protools, its very fast!! Yes, VI instruments implementation its a nightmare on Protools but I use VEPro and that saved my life.
Also, on the audio side, Protools kills DP, all the tools you get to automate regions and levels are amazing not to mention the clip gain (yes DP have clip gain too but its very ugly).
Clip fx? Well DP don't have anything like that. As I said, VCA faders, etc, etc.

The things I miss from DP?

1- Pitch automation.
2- Hardware Midi implementation, there DP is THE KING hands down.
3- the little sends knobs on the mixer.
4- DP plug in browser.
5- Plug in chain presets.
6- the beautiful way DP handles Delay Compensation, man I miss that :(

And Thats it.

We can argue for hours and as I said, our needs are different, but really guys, do not settle for less, motu owes you a lot compared with what other softwares offer.
Sounds like you're using PT12 right? I froze my system at PT11.3.1 when Avid started the yearly (or monthly depending on how you roll) fee for being able to get updates and not just upgrades. The other thing that roiled me with Avid was when they went back on their promise that PT11.3.2 was a free update; they rolled that into the PT12 paid upgrade (the only ones that legally got 11.3.2 was to be on a paid update thing).

But really all daws could learn from one another. I'm not saying they all have to function the same but offer the same features in some form. Take for instance PT's implementation of true instrument tracks - why can't DP have that as an option the way it is in PT? Notice I'm not saying to do away with DP's separate tracks deal but have it as an option. Ditto for the way PT implements sends - you don't need to create a bus you just route to a track if you want. Same thing for routing to a new track - you can create a bus and go that way or just route to a new or existing track. Why can't DP have both as options?

What could PT learn from DP? How about no artificial separation between versions. You have PT vanilla (non-HD) and PTHD with an option for dsp processing cards (HDX). DP - one version that does everything. No artificial limits. Something else PT could learn from DP - how about video handling? Most everyone knows the PT video engine is problematic at best. As to plugin chains PT has that through the so-called 'track hack' and this actually did exist in an earlier cheapy version of PT but the big boys never got that as an official option hence the hack. DP's clipping is more elegant. - See what I mean about each daw could learn from the other?

Please not I have no problem with DSP processing as such but when it's wrapped up in a single daw and not usable across multiple daws that's where I draw the line.

Now if one could Rewire PT and DP together that would be interesting. There is one daw that comes close to that and that's Sonar (that's where I started digital recording years back). Yes there are multiple version of the program and it's still Windows only (the Mac alpha seems to have become vaporware) and some consider it the Rodney Dangerfield of daw s/w.
Old 8th January 2017
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
Features wise, if DP doesn't offer you ones that you like go ahead and deal with Pro Tools. Like I said I've used them all at one point or another, I'm not choosing DP and Live because that's all I've used. I also started in Performer 1.0 on a Mac+ as a kid, but that doesn't mean anything. You come on here acting like DAW X is more capable than DP, DP is outdated etc. then back track and start a comparison where you flat out admit DP has superior MIDI, so which is it? When it comes down to it the DAW is just a conduit for your creativity, and different needs are different. I do not own a recording studio, I compose electronic and rock music, and play it live. I have no need for Pro Tools, zilch. BTW Pro Tools took forever to get even passable MIDI support, but yeah today it's tits... back to my original point about chasing DAWs.

My whole point is your anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. So piling on to disrespect the DAW of choice for this sub forum when some DP user is talking about an unstable version for him is going to get a backlash. Not at all surprising, or uncalled for. I'm glad you're happy with Pro Tools, but you're being "that guy", you know the one who recently converted and can't imagine why anyone else would use...
No Sir, this thread is about how DP 9.12 is a fiasco and I just express my opinion about it, dp9.12 its the new DP6, sorry.

You are being THAT guy, with the classic motunation attitud, yes I said midi is superior on DP, and for those who ONLY need midi, is perfect, but there are other kind of producers who NEED more modern features that dp simply don't have, and believe me the day Motu wake up and implement them, I'll be back for sure.

So relax my friend, I'm not talking about your wife or your mother here, its just a software.

Last edited by delcosmos; 8th January 2017 at 06:27 PM..
Old 8th January 2017
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Sounds like you're using PT12 right? I froze my system at PT11.3.1 when Avid started the yearly (or monthly depending on how you roll) fee for being able to get updates and not just upgrades. The other thing that roiled me with Avid was when they went back on their promise that PT11.3.2 was a free update; they rolled that into the PT12 paid upgrade (the only ones that legally got 11.3.2 was to be on a paid update thing).

But really all daws could learn from one another. I'm not saying they all have to function the same but offer the same features in some form. Take for instance PT's implementation of true instrument tracks - why can't DP have that as an option the way it is in PT? Notice I'm not saying to do away with DP's separate tracks deal but have it as an option. Ditto for the way PT implements sends - you don't need to create a bus you just route to a track if you want. Same thing for routing to a new track - you can create a bus and go that way or just route to a new or existing track. Why can't DP have both as options?

What could PT learn from DP? How about no artificial separation between versions. You have PT vanilla (non-HD) and PTHD with an option for dsp processing cards (HDX). DP - one version that does everything. No artificial limits. Something else PT could learn from DP - how about video handling? Most everyone knows the PT video engine is problematic at best. As to plugin chains PT has that through the so-called 'track hack' and this actually did exist in an earlier cheapy version of PT but the big boys never got that as an official option hence the hack. DP's clipping is more elegant. - See what I mean about each daw could learn from the other?

Please not I have no problem with DSP processing as such but when it's wrapped up in a single daw and not usable across multiple daws that's where I draw the line.

Now if one could Rewire PT and DP together that would be interesting. There is one daw that comes close to that and that's Sonar (that's where I started digital recording years back). Yes there are multiple version of the program and it's still Windows only (the Mac alpha seems to have become vaporware) and some consider it the Rodney Dangerfield of daw s/w.
You are right, I'm on Protools right now because I found the features I NEED there, but of course I hate Avid's politics, of course I don't like paying an anual subscription plus the big money I spent on my HDX rig.

I think DP could be the best music software without changing what we like about it, but they should implement all the modern features we need, come on we are on 2017!
A year ago it looked like they wanted to do it! Then they released this terrible version and forgot about it.

Yes, lets see whats their offer on this namm hoping they don't take another year to release it, me personally, I can't wait for them.

Last edited by delcosmos; 8th January 2017 at 06:30 PM..
Old 8th January 2017
  #24
Here for the gear
 

I work with dp9,and i saw a lot of comparisons with others Daw's and what was my surprise (the sound).
I heard one mix made in Pro Tools and the same mix with tha same plug ins in dp and the sound of pro tools was better (if you don't believe me you can try at the steven Slate page and compare the Chris lord alge MIx).The virtual synths of DP just can't compete in the world of virtual synths, they don't pay attention what's going on around the world of that!.The thing is: a year ago I saw at the Namm the dp9.12 and i thought ,wow,finally i can use my harware with dp ,I can open at 64 bit a lot of kontakt instruments!! That's a Lie, when they released it I tried all the things I Saw at the Namm Show and nothing worked fine, I had to do a downgrade to 9.02 because Dp 9.12 is not ready as they told us and it doesn't work well,what are they gonna announce at this Namm,that they still working on the bugs !!! Come on !!! Motu has a lot of work to do if they want to compete at the major leagues!!!!
Old 8th January 2017
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Robert Randolph's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
You come on here acting like DAW X is more capable than DP, DP is outdated etc. then back track and start a comparison where you flat out admit DP has superior MIDI, so which is it?
It seems like you said it yourself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
When it comes down to it the DAW is just a conduit for your creativity, and different needs are different.
If your workflow is mostly audio-based then DP is actually quite poor compared to PT. Your workflow isn't audio so then you likely would feel that PT is outdated compared to DP rather than vice-versa. If you are working primarily with audio though, PT does make DP look rather outdated.

As much as I like PT, I can not stand AVID's business model, policies and bumbling. I got rid of my PTHD system and moved to DP since DP offers many workflow methods that do result in a net increase in productivity for me.

Yeah, there's a lot of very silly workarounds, but overall I do work faster. The downside is the increase in cognitive load. After a day of using DP my brain is jello. I have to put so much mental effort in to what I'm doing and how to get things done, even though I am more proficient in DP than any other product (except SAW). Working in Another DAW™, I do work a bit slower but I also don't have to think about what I'm doing nearly as much.

I have written a series of posts on the topic though, so rather than re-hash it here...

Cool stuff in DP:
Cool Features in Digital Performer... Part 1
Cool Features in Digital Performer... Part 2
Cool Features in Digital Performer... Part 3
Cool Features in Digital Performer... Part 4
Cool Features in Digital Performer... Part 5

Things I hate in DP:
Things I hate about Digital Performer...

Personally, the instability of 9.12 and the lack of VCAs, hardware inserts, free-warping and absolute grid are really starting to irritate me though. I thought I could do without it for a while, but everytime I (have to) do work in another DAW I am reminded how incredibly useful those features are to me.

I'm sure none of those things matter to you in the slightest though, which is totally fine. I personally never touch midi so our needs are totally world's apart, and that's what's so cool about modern DAW products; they offer so much to so many variations of musicians and engineers.

I think lucky for us all, Motu does have some great people working for them. It's just a matter of how much they, as a company, are going to value DP as a product. Their support is fantastic and their new hardware line is amazing. The talent and professionalism are there, but is the focus on DP?
Old 8th January 2017
  #26
Gear Nut
 
waxman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post
Hahaha, no! I left DP last year. What I meant is that imho dP development was freezed in 2005, their last great implementation was the pitch automation (which btw I love and think its the best).

I am surprised "Pregen" its working for you, even on Motunation a lot of people are complaining because it doesn't work properly, you can read there that MANY people went back to dp 9.02.

I am grateful with dp, I made my music carreer with that software but I personally think there's no more evolution and I want to get things like offline freeze, a working "hardware insert" function, faders with MORE resolution, a bigger headroom mixer, better audio automation, a dedicated audio browser, a propper way to color the entire track, an elegant way to make stems offline, VCA Faders, etc, etc.

As I said, I got tired to wait for all these and decided to jump, I'm still searching btw.

Happy new year.
I am on Motunation and actually there are only a few guys having issues. Here is the deal with pre-gen. Pre-gen problems are with certain VI's or Plugs. Usually older ones that have not been updated for years. Stylus RMX or any that have their own players. Some Vienna but Vienna are being updated. NI Maschine has it's own player but works great. All the NI stuff works flawless. All the newer plugs and Vi's seem work great with DP 9.12 and Sierra. I think this will become one of the best combo's in DP history.

What I am seeing is "score guys" that are opening large templates they built in 9.02 or DP8 are struggling. They get frustrated when it does not just work first time or a project does not transfer right over. If they rebuild the templates and isolate the plugs or VIs that are not compatible they would be fine. But they blame it on DP.

I'm doing pop and rock projects and lots of mixing. Recording basics and quickly taking the song through to completion. I come from the Analog world and do things with a tape foundation. So working in 9.12 is a MEGA improvement. I track guys on keyboard VI's with a Drummer on e-drums into BFD3 (live hat) guitar, bass and a guide vocal simultaneously. At a 128 buffer there is zero perceptible latency and the CPU hit is under 30% on a 2013 MacPro trash can 6 core.

I also do songs with Maschine to build tracks for pop style singers. MIDI in DP is still the best IMO for that. So DP 9.12 and the Raven touch screen I've had for a year are two pieces that have been a big step up in workflow for me. Interesting DP version of Raven is unique. No templates like logic and PT. For that reason the dynamic layout nature of DP and Batch command I think works better with the Raven then PT or Logic. Hopefully one or the other companies will make the channel width the same. Preferably larger DP channels then using the floating mixer everything will be touch. I'm surprised MOTU has not made their own touch screen mixer...

What DAW did you say you are using?
Old 8th January 2017
  #27
Gear Nut
 
waxman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post
Are you trolling? Read my post.
Nope not trolling you Del baby... just answering on my "(phone while mobile" the quotes you did from my posts... so yeah I just went back and read your "I have a huge studio and went to PT because I made a record" thread. So much in that post not many dudes probably understand. I have used PT for years. I have 11. So I understand your desire to integrate the old school gear new school facility work.

I worked at El Dorado (Hollywood and Highland) in the early 80s... Then owned 3 state of the art 24 track studios with multi rooms until early 2000. Cuts on radio and MTV. I get it. I know what your doing... "or what's being done to you" I feel your pain... hehehe

I bailed on the rooms, machines, and "PT" being compatible and commercial" in 2002. Until 2012 I needed both old school rooms and a personal system because all the digital stuff was not up to snuff. Now the systems like I described in my earlier thread are superior. I thankfully got out of a $500k plus studio investment in 2002. It now costs me under $30k for my system and is light years better then 2002.

I still produce in the "real studios." A famous 48 channel API Studer PT room a mile up the road from me. I also make more then that room gets for the studio and an engineer. The place does label work and legacy pros that appreciate the Sunset Sound vibe. I don't miss those days one bit and I'm sure glad I don't own that dinosaur. When guys like Sides bail it's time to rethink.

Clients come to me for what I do, not the DAW... I think you may be back to DP some day and maybe a few other changes unless you just love the big room vibe like a hobby. For me I can work anywhere in the world at anytime. I'm not tied to a room. Not hating just say'n it's a Brand New World... Happy New Year and yah thanks for the chat...
Old 8th January 2017
  #28
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by delcosmos View Post
No Sir, this thread is about how DP 9.12 is a fiasco and I just express my opinion about it, dp9.12 its the new DP6, sorry.

You are being THAT guy, with the classic motunation attitud,
Not at all, unless you think people should never respond to put downs that 100% are not about the software, just about your feelings about the software, like:


Quote:
I got tired of Motu honestly, when I saw their DP presentation at Namm last year it was a revelation for me, I don't want to be that guy with glasses and pants above his belly playing "modern" jazz amazed by how great the new "bass flanger pedal" plug in sounds.
Quote:
How many people use DP? 100? 150? Well there's a reason why.
I responded back because I had in 2000 been that guy, the one who used to use DAW X who now uses DAW Y, and now believes DAW Y is FAR SUPERIOR. Logic was what I compared DP to, you're using Pro Tools, Live etc.

The fact of the matter is they all have issues, your issues are not mine, not everyone is experiencing problems with NextGen in DP 9.12.

I get being pissed at DP, I was in 2000 and I happily used Logic for years, but I'm a bit embarrassed by my comments on forums towards DP users in the vein of yours above. After realizing that you choose a DAW for the features it has, not the ones you think it should have, and also realizing that I will probably never be a one DAW user, DP and Live cover the bases for me. It's telling that you use Live and PT, both are severely limited MIDI wise and do some audio editing really really well. I could attack your DAWs for these limitations but why? You chose them not because you wanted to be that outdated non MIDI guy who worked in a recording studio on audio only, (joke) but because the features fit what you do.

I'm all for asking MOTU to stabilize and modernize their DAW, but I'm not at all for attacking MOTU as having a DAW 100 nerds use, and if you can't see the difference in language between the two I don't know what to tell you.
Old 8th January 2017
  #29
Gear Nut
 
waxman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Don't waste your time with waxie; he's just being himself.
Just couldn't stand it? hahahah Welcome Jersey...
Old 8th January 2017
  #30
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Randolph View Post
It seems like you said it yourself...
You're quoting me trying to make that exact point. I don't understand why? since it seems like you're trying to point out a logical contradiction there?

Different needs are different, i.e. I use MIDI for 90% of what I do in DP, so to me DP does not suffer compared to Pro Tools. In general I think DAWs mentioned here in this thread are great examples of how this works:
Pro Tools started off as an audio only digital hardware dependent recording studio tool. Logic and DP started off as MIDI only and Live started off as a DJ performance tool. They all have limitations based on these beginnings 17-25+ years ago. Looking at them, all of them are missing features the others have, and have features the others do not have.

Stability is another thing, all DAWs have that issue with various releases, PT and Reason for the most part tend to be stable, but they are glacial in product features if you're expecting big changes.

While I am 100% in agreement with the basic sentiment here and in every forum that my DAW should have all the features I want, that my choices in what features are important are the ones that matter, I guess at some point I realized that maybe just maybe my choices weren't what others needed. For instance I would rather have Logic's Object oriented MIDI handling implemented into DPs Tracks window than VCA faders, and I'm willing to bet that's exactly the opposite for you.
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