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Euro Modular filters like the Moog ladder?
Old 16th July 2013
  #1
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Euro Modular filters like the Moog ladder?

I know Moog makes a 500 series filter, but I'd rather have a synth than pay for that. I'm sure it's sweet, but I'm looking for a cheaper alternative. I thought about getting a Moog MF-101 and then thought about getting a Moog Minitaur (thinking for not much more I'd get a great bass synth on top of it), but wasn't sure if it can do the envelope follower thing the MF-101 can. So I figured I should look for a good Moog filter in Euroland. Anyone have suggestions?
Old 16th July 2013
  #2
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Entrainer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rids View Post
I know Moog makes a 500 series filter, but I'd rather have a synth than pay for that. I'm sure it's sweet, but I'm looking for a cheaper alternative. I thought about getting a Moog MF-101 and then thought about getting a Moog Minitaur (thinking for not much more I'd get a great bass synth on top of it), but wasn't sure if it can do the envelope follower thing the MF-101 can. So I figured I should look for a good Moog filter in Euroland. Anyone have suggestions?
Nothing as cheap as an MF101 with an envelope follower and wet/dry mix.
Old 16th July 2013
  #3
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How about without?
Old 17th July 2013
  #4
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Mefistophelees's Avatar
Doepfer A-119 input module + A-120 VCF + A138b mixer.

That'll be a bit less, but may depend where you live.

That's not including a case or PSU though.
Old 17th July 2013
  #5
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Synthesizers.com $189
Synthesizers.com $92

x2 for stereo = $562

19" rails = $62
QPS2 power supply = $125.00

$749 with 2 spaces left for stereo spring reverb?

Synthesizers.com $136 x2

$1021 for stereo spring reverb + stereo Moog Ladder
Filter with dual DI/envelope follower >

Not Euro, but a cool stand-alone processing rig
Old 17th July 2013
  #6
Registered User
There are plenty of guitar stompbox envelope follower pedals that are cheap and rather good. They will work on synths too. Check out EHX and MXR, but don't overlook Boss or even the Behringer knock offs if you want cheap. Some are digital, but others are full analog. Whatever works really ... the Soundblox digital filter pedals are amazing. BTW I have both the MF-101 and Minitaur - both good choices and you are correct about the envelope filter. They all do different things.
Old 17th July 2013
  #7
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mainesthai's Avatar
 

Besides the ones already mentioned.
MacBeth X-series Backend.
The Doepfer A-108 has a very Mooglike sound.
Analogue Systems RS100.

Non Euro
Mos-Lab 904A
Modcan 904A 44B and 48dB LPF 67B (also in A format.)
COTK 904A (2 versions available)
Moon Modular 506
Old 17th July 2013
  #8
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dswo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rids View Post
I know Moog makes a 500 series filter, but I'd rather have a synth than pay for that. I'm sure it's sweet, but I'm looking for a cheaper alternative. I thought about getting a Moog MF-101 and then thought about getting a Moog Minitaur (thinking for not much more I'd get a great bass synth on top of it), but wasn't sure if it can do the envelope follower thing the MF-101 can. So I figured I should look for a good Moog filter in Euroland. Anyone have suggestions?
The Minitaur has three assignable CV inputs, and its envelopes can be triggered by MIDI. That's not the same as an envelope follower, but would it do what you want?
Old 17th July 2013
  #9
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It's not a Moog clone, but the Syntech/MOTM e440 in Euro kicks ass.
I love that it keeps the bass @ hi resonance. FM sounds nice. Quality
on par with Macbeth BEF, thick analog. It's an OTA, original Paul S. design.
(BEF also has a sweet sounding mixer, 2 envelopes, and VCA)

I'd take an e440 over a MF101, a-120, a-108, or RS100 all day.
Old 17th July 2013
  #10
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I already have the a119, so maybe I should just add a Euro filter (if I don't go for the Minitaur). The e440 seems like it would be nice and most of what I've heard from Syntech is good stuff. Nice to have the different pole's outs. That could be cool. But isn't this a Prophet 5 filter?

I saw that Frequency Central has a Rogue (vcf/vca) clone. That thing has a nice gritty sound, but not sure if it's the typical Moog ladder.

What I really want is the Frequency Central VCA and Env (both Roland 100M derivatives) and combine that with a Moog ladder filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dswo View Post
The Minitaur has three assignable CV inputs, and its envelopes can be triggered by MIDI. That's not the same as an envelope follower, but would it do what you want?
Interesting point, but I'm not so sure it would do what the MF-101 can. Although controlling via midi might give the filtered audio a very similar sound, probably not the same since the control is via midi instead of audio. In effect I guess it would give the modulated cutoff sound an envelope follower would. I wonder if the 3 assignable CVs can be assigned to one of the envelopes. I'm guessing so. I wonder if we can use a multiple and split the output signal, one going to the Minitaur's filter and the other going to it's Env.
Old 17th July 2013
  #11
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it may have the same IC core as a prophet-5, but all the surrounding circuitry will cause it to behave and sound differently.
just the internal feedback/resonance implementation alone can make a big difference even if the core IC is the same.

i guess how much you can splurge is the question here: a-108 is "the low end" under $150, while topping out as high as $1400 for macbeth backend.
and exactly how authentic a Moog sound you require...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entrainer View Post
It's not a Moog clone, but the Syntech/MOTM e440 in Euro kicks ass.....

I'd take an e440 over a MF101, a-120, a-108, or RS100 all day.
the e-440 is just about the only filter left that i am itching to try out
all of Paul's work is really nice, top-notch engineering and musically rewarding (have nanner'd E-340 & E-350 here)

i've settled on a-105 (wet wet), a pair of R-54s, pair of RES-4, megaohm Synthacon & Delta in a-series...but loving the modcan 48dB atm for Moogy-ness these days; too bad that's not in euro (yet)
Old 17th July 2013
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaft9000 View Post
the e-440 is just about the only filter left that i am itching to try out
all of Paul's work is really nice, top-notch engineering and musically rewarding (have nanner'd E-340 & E-350 here)

i've settled on a-105 (wet wet), a pair of R-54s, pair of RES-4, megaohm Synthacon & Delta in a-series...but loving the modcan 48dB atm for Moogy-ness these days; too bad that's not in euro (yet)
Those are all hot, 2 RES-4 is sickness. R54s too. I really enjoyed the
R52, I want to get one again someday... at first I wasn't to keen but it can
have a light sexy character. Missing it.

I bet Phil Megaohm could rock a MOTM 440 into A-Series format for you.
Doesn't have the poles broken out though... I read Paul had to reconfigure
the e440 to 12V, so it's not as easy to convert as the digital e340/e350.
Old 17th July 2013
  #13
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The main problem I have with modular filters is that a lot of while sounding very hifi, can sound very surgical. Maybe that's the nature of modular vs. a hardware synth or maybe just the nature of modular Osc in general.

I really want a liquidy filter. Is the RES-4 pretty syrupy? I almost bought one of those once.
Old 17th July 2013
  #14
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STG Post Lawsuit
Old 17th July 2013
  #15
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Entrainer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rids View Post
The main problem I have with modular filters is that a lot of while sounding very hifi, can sound very surgical. Maybe that's the nature of modular vs. a hardware synth or maybe just the nature of modular Osc in general.

I really want a liquidy filter. Is the RES-4 pretty syrupy? I almost bought one of those once.
Res 4 is not syrupy. e440 has a nice resonance and input drive, not hi-fi,
nor surgical like a MMF1 or even a Toppobrillo Multifilter.
Old 17th July 2013
  #16
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RES-4 is not really in this conversation - it's 4 bandpass/notch filters. i use it to shape/pitch noise and create drums, usually. it's one of the furthest things from classic ladder sound and still analog; the RES-4 is pretty unique.

in addition to the RS-200, also check out the Wiard Boogie filter...very smooth and juicy
even though i have some expensive ones, i wouldn't throw the a-108 under a bus before giving it a shot....doepfer make some wonderful filters
http://www.andreaskrebs.de/assets/media/A-108.mp3
demo+text courtesy of Andreas Krebs:
The example uses three A-110 VCOs as input (all with sawtooth, one VCO is tuned down 1 octave), there is filter key tracking and filter ADSR modulation with varied intensity. You will hear the five different outputs of the filter as follows:
48 dB lowpass (0'00" and 4'05"),
24 dB lowpass (1'00" and 4'24"),
12 dB lowpass (1'42" and 5'00"),
6 dB lowpass (2'20" and 5'27") and
bandpass filter (3'00" and 5'48").
For each output, we start with no resonance (called emphasis here, since this is a kind of Moog clone) and end with full resonance. When using the bandpass, the center frequency is varied as well. After this, we repeat the same thing (slightly different filter center frequency) with input level cranked up so it can distort nicely. The VCOs are driven by an A-155 Sequencer.

^^^obviously not so liquid/smooth as some^^

so if LIQUIDITY is your thing then definitely check out the SSM-types (e-440, a-105, tiptop z2040)
creeping a bit towards 303 territory...which is actually OK, as TB-303 is really a 4-pole (diode) ladder filter anyway, not 18dB/oct as is so often said
Old 17th July 2013
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaft9000 View Post
in addition to the RS-200, also check out the Wiard Boogie filter...very smooth and beefy/juicy
I love this one, going to have 2 soon with 2 Dual Borgs. But it's got vactrols,
not sure if that's your thing. Boogie is fast but still doesn't FM like a traditional,
non-vactrol filter. And it doesn't track a calibrated 1V/OCT.

(I traded out my e440, going near 100% Malekko/Richter/Wiard in Euro...
all of my rig is now 0V-10V, MOTM/SynthTech e440 was 0-5V)
Old 18th July 2013
  #18
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I actually really do like vactrols. My favorite is my Plan B Model 11. I just listened to the Borg and it sounds really cool. A different flavor of vactrol from my Evil Twin, but very cool.

Nice call on the A-108. It does sound very liquidy and it also seems like it has an aggressive tone, though with all the rez in that clip it's harder to hear how it cuts. I think I like the tone of this one more than the A105, has more of a liquid aggression thing going on.

I mainly want a really aggressive-liquid filter and also something like the Boogie, for it's smoother Moog type sound in contrast. The STG Post lawsuit sounds pretty smooth too. So hopefully by the end of this I'll have 2 filters picked out, one for liquid aggression and one for liquid smoothness. Any more suggestions are indeed welcome. So far all the suggestions have amounted to a lot of really good options (granted listening through youtube).
Old 18th July 2013
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rids View Post
really aggressive-liquid filter and also something like the Boogie
can't really go wrong with those two.
Did you listen to the new Dual Borg?

It really gets liquid/aggression around 6:00+



only thing is Dual Borg only passes + voltage (AC coupled, not DC)...
so no processing of CV or audio rate CV (ie, Cwejman DLFO as oscillator, etc)
without half-wave rectification.

AND, to open and close them all the way, you need a +10V lfo/envelope
like the Envelator. Lots of euro envelopes are +5V or +8V. Makenoise Maths,
Function, and Malekko/Richter Envelator are +10V. Plan B I think is +8V,
I know the M13 opens and closes all the way @ +8V, so I'm assuming
the envelopes are matched.

(forgive me if you know this Rids, but many reading may be curious and not know)

* never had the M11... I'd love to get some old Plan B stuff. I liked the M12, M13,
and M15 I had.
Old 18th July 2013
  #20
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ooooh you're evil entrainer - getting positively slutty about LPGs

maybe mine were from a weird batch, but i had a pair of borgs for about 6 months and then sold them off...they didn't have much ms-20 character at all - mine were much more 'crystalline' and hard than the characteristic(probably lousy adjectives here) wet/squelch->throaty->screamy-> overloadmadness at higher res way that the MS20s i've used sound like.
EDIT: yeah, watching the viddy that sounds very familiar like i remember them...i guess i just don't dig the combo of ms20+LPG in one filter (or rather, two-in-one in the new dual's case),especially how feedback gathers. partial to the M13 LPG...sooo buttery

not selling my 3 Anties envelator or noisering though!!
Old 18th July 2013
  #21
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Good info Entrainer, I didn't know everything of what you mentioned regarding the voltage. The Dual Borg sounds pretty dang cool. Being that I have a M11 (which is pretty mean sounding) and M13 I think may go with the Boogie for smoothness. But the Dual Borg might be one I will try out in the future because that thing sounds really thick. I wanted to try out the M12 when I had a chance, but went for the M11 and M13 in the end, which suit me well.

The e440 sound very euphoric. I'll be looking more into that as I've only found one (albeit long) clip of it. The RS100S is quite liquidy and can get pretty aggressive especially with the drive knob. This vid demostrated that pretty well: Analogue Systems RS110 and RS100S on Vimeo The z2040 sounded pretty good, but I'll have to listen to more from that to see if it's what I'm after.

But I must say, the cheaper old Doepfer 108 got me right away. It has character and that sounds like what I'm looking for with it's aggressive liquidity. Somehow I want to think of a Roland SH2 when I hear the a108, though I don't think they necessarily sound similar. The a105 sounds good, but I think I personally like the a108 better. This and the Boogie may be front runners for now. I was originally going for either an older Roland or Moog sound anyways.

I must say every time I buy a different modular filter, it feels like I'm getting a new synth. It's pretty dang fun to shop for modular filters.
Old 18th July 2013
  #22
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the Pittsburgh modular filter is very smooth, its not 24, but its very smooth, i like mine a ton
Old 18th July 2013
  #23
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I am a big fan of Plan B filters (M11, 2xM12, M13) and at first i quite liked the Wiard filters (Had Borg 1, 2 and Boogie) but in the long term, no that much :

Wiard filter are fat with a big bottom but imo often lack precision in this area, I found that the bass was fuzzy.

And i didn't like the way the reso sound on both Borg and Boogie. Too aggressive, especially on the Boogie : this filter need a sweet reso. (M12 reso is ultra sweet)

My favorite is the Borg 1.

The problems with the Plan B is that the modulation input is linear, not expo and they react strangely compared to more conventional filters.

If there is a filter that react like the wiard for ex and sound like the Plan B, it will become my favorite !
Old 18th July 2013
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rids View Post
I was originally going for either an older Roland or Moog sound anyways.

I must say every time I buy a different modular filter, it feels like I'm getting a new synth. It's pretty dang fun to shop for modular filters.
I wish AMSynths had more items in-stock

Arp/Moog Ladder
AM8012 ARP 2600P VCF @ AMSynths

Roland SH-5
AM8005 Diode Multi Mode VCF @ AMSynths


And the Oakley Super Ladder (5U)
I love that quote, "diode-ladder bandpass-filtering, not something you're going to find everyday"

Old 18th July 2013
  #25
I know you mentioned cheaper alternatives, but if you decide to go 500 series than the "minitaur + ladder + API 550a" is a combo I've been really happy with, fwiw.

500 series was kind of a strategic choice in my case, once I decided on the ladder, I decided to focus on outboard gear for a bit to fill up the slots :-) . I already have a lot of synths so the timing was about right.
Old 18th July 2013
  #26
Deleted 8456dd3
Guest
How does the Doepfer SSM filter compare to the Synth Tech 440 module?
Old 18th July 2013
  #27
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I own a Borg 1 filter, built a Frequency central Moog Rouge and L-1 vactrol filter.

I'm currently halfway through building a SEM filter.

However by far my favourite Euro filter I own is the AMSynths Mirage filter (24db LP,CEM3328 chip) it sounds awesome when given a good piece of meat to gnaw on, its the filter from the old 80s Ensoniq Mirage sampler.
You can't buy CEM3328 chips anymore however each Ensoniq mirage contains 4 chips so for each mirage sampler AMSynths get their hands on they can make 4 modules, they will give you a module for free in trade for a Ensoniq Mirage sampler.
From this arrangement you can understand why they don't have the module in stock very often.
Old 18th July 2013
  #28
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Is that the Moogah SEM build ?
Old 18th July 2013
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Entrainer View Post
I wish AMSynths had more items in-stock

Arp/Moog Ladder
AM8012 ARP 2600P VCF @ AMSynths

Roland SH-5
AM8005 Diode Multi Mode VCF @ AMSynths


And the Oakley Super Ladder (5U)
I love that quote, "diode-ladder bandpass-filtering, not something you're going to find everyday"


Holy crap, I want that Oakley filter. Haha, that quote is great. And alas, it teases me as it appears Oakley hasn't made that into Euro format. It has so much of what I want in a filter, mainly the nice round tone it imparts. I'm pretty sure I would be buying this today if it were in Euro format.

That SH-5 filter sounds good. I'm glad you brought this company up. I usually check out Analogue Haven's list of modules, where they don't carry this one. The other JP-8, 6 and EMS/System100 filters AMS has are pretty nice also. I might have to get one of these.

But why is the Oakley filter not in Euro I would even possibly buy a small cheap case to put it in if there was one.

I listened to more of the e440 and can hear how beautiful, pure and euphoric it sounds. That may be one to get in the future for me, but right now I'm going after some filters with more gritty (or round bubbly) character, besides the Boogie which I'm thinking I will get unless I find something similar to that.
Old 18th July 2013
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickman View Post
Is that the Moogah SEM build ?
Yes, and to be completely honest the whole build has been a farce I was one of the early adopters and nobody was coming back on the forum with answers to the sloppy build! When they did answer they were continusly changing their minds of what components you need and giving wrong information on the BOM, it's been sat there half built as I lost interest and since then built a L-1 compressor, Moog rouge filter and almost finished a Thomas Henry ADSR (just waiting for Green 9mm Alpha Pots)
Those who have finished the build there appears to be are a lot problems with Bleed in certain settings, so I don't feel like wasting anymore of my time on it at the moment.

Will I ever finish the SEM....... ?

L-1, Thonk, Fonitronik are superb Modules to build but I'll be giving Moogah a wide birth in future as I have my doubts if he ever had a 100% working SEM infront of him before he started selling the PCB's.
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