The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
What if a bunch of Eurorack manufacturers agreed on a normalization standard?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1
Lives for gear
 
ArtFluids's Avatar
What if a bunch of Eurorack manufacturers agreed on a normalization standard?

Here's a quick thought: imagine if modules came with pins on the backside of modules for using jumpers for pre-patching really common signal paths.
I'm not saying get rid of the typical patch points, of course not, but imagine if you could build a semi-modular using Eurorack modules.

Just string together the basic subtractive patch etc. And override connections with the front-side patch points.

I just hear a lot of people say they hate patching the same basic subtractive patch over and over. I mean hypothetically you could already do this with a soldering iron but it would be neat if that capability came stock.

Just a thought.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Derp's Avatar
Or you could just patch the subtractive voice and leave it patched as an option. I did that with my DotCom pretty frequently since the patches I made with it varied so little in structure. Alternatively, there are a ton of good modules that consist of a standard voice. I bought the Boog to patch in and out of, but I doubt I'll ever actually do that because it sounds so damn good on its own.

I'm just leery of introducing new standards when there are a few manufacturers that can't adhere to current standards or even their own standards. Like the whole CV/Gate over ribbon thing is long gone, and TipTop's ribbon to mixer paradigm doesn't even work right anymore.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 
ArtFluids's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp View Post
Like the whole CV/Gate over ribbon thing is long gone, and TipTop's ribbon to mixer paradigm doesn't even work right anymore.

Oh did they use the power ribbon to send CV/Gate?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
CV and gate are specced as "standard" on the 16 pin eurorack power connector header.

I've not seen it used - but I can see the issue, how is the bus board supposed to know where to send it? What happens when 5 different modules are producing CV and gate on the same bus?

Erica Synths drum series allows for triggers to be "normaled" inside the case using a second ribbon cable, one to each module. It's used in their techno system.

Others have tried various things. It hasn't stuck.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
DSC
Gear Maniac
 
DSC's Avatar
The farther I got into euro that was one thing I 'fixed' for myself by building 'super' modules. I define the term as two or more modules together behind one panel that usually incorporates some sort of normaling between them.

The difficulty arises in the fact that they pretty much would have to be custom one off's. Not a problem if you want to spend a little scratch getting it done.

There are other surprising benefits too. If you build around 33HP in total size, than switching out super modules in a standard 3U 104HP rack becomes a breeze. Basically switch out three modules and you are done!

Link to my original blog post on it.

http://millionmachinemarch.com/2016/...orack-modules/
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 
ArtFluids's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSC View Post
The farther I got into euro that was one thing I 'fixed' for myself by building 'super' modules. I define the term as two or more modules together behind one panel that usually incorporates some sort of normaling between them.

The difficulty arises in the fact that they pretty much would have to be custom one off's. Not a problem if you want to spend a little scratch getting it done.

There are other surprising benefits too. If you build around 33HP in total size, than switching out super modules in a standard 3U 104HP rack becomes a breeze. Basically switch out three modules and you are done!

Link to my original blog post on it.

http://millionmachinemarch.com/2016/...orack-modules/
Yeah, that's interesting.

I guess what I'm proposing isn't a "standard" so much as having header sockets on your module that can be easily bridged with jumpers.





I'm not talking about co-opting the power ribbon, or having a rule of what socket should go where, I guess I just mean if there were backside connectors as well as frontside connectors that would be nice.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
DSC
Gear Maniac
 
DSC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
Yeah, that's interesting.
I guess what I'm proposing isn't a "standard" so much as having header sockets on your module that can be easily bridged with jumpers.
I have talked extensively with at least 4 major eurorack manufacturers and frankly they don't want to encourage the general public to 'mess' around with their original designs unless it is a expansion module from their own company. Usually those headers are I/O points that are NOT voltage protected, so it will take more than just adding headers and most don't want to incur any more costs than they have already.

I have to skate a fine line just discussing my ideas on how to make their modules better by showing them the mods I have made to them.

Getting them to agree on anything would be a huge challenge. There are also feuds going on between some of them, so even if you could get there. Someone would think their ideas were better than others.

Yeah Dan at intellijell, I'm looking at you
Old 1 week ago
  #8
Gear Guru
 
Derp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambiguous signal View Post
CV and gate are specced as "standard" on the 16 pin eurorack power connector header.

I've not seen it used - but I can see the issue, how is the bus board supposed to know where to send it? What happens when 5 different modules are producing CV and gate on the same bus?
The concept was designed when Doepfer was the only game in town, so the idea was that it would be a monophonic voice needing all of the CV/Gate to go to all of the oscillators. I don't see it implemented by anyone but them, but the standard is still there. They even have a module made for tapping into it.

http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/a100t_e.htm

God bless Dieter for bringing this standard to the world. My studio would not exist in its current state if it weren't for him.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 
ImJohn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp View Post
The concept was designed when Doepfer was the only game in town, so the idea was that it would be a monophonic voice needing all of the CV/Gate to go to all of the oscillators. I don't see it implemented by anyone but them, but the standard is still there. They even have a module made for tapping into it.

http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/a100t_e.htm

God bless Dieter for bringing this standard to the world. My studio would not exist in its current state if it weren't for him.
It was good that he did that for eurorack but he likely got the idea from the Moog and other systems that came before his that had a similar feature? Here's a good post on Muff's by the great CZ Rider that discusses this:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/vi...25161#p1025161
Old 1 week ago
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
ModMatrix's Avatar
This has been discussed for YEARS. There is a ‘standard’..... DOEPFER. For 20 years now many euro manufacturers have chosen to ignore this standard. The reason for the absolute mess in euro “standards” is ppl have imported all manner of designs into euro from other formats. Bus support is already there but mostly ignored. I’d love to see a digital system similar to Buchla 200e
Old 1 week ago
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Bignatius's Avatar
I've actually pondered a few custom hard-wired partial-patches between sets of modules.

I think of them as Compound Modules or Meta Modules. And as often as they stay patched...

...may as well.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 
ArtFluids's Avatar
how would you implement normalized connections that are breakable?
Old 1 week ago
  #13
Yes, as has been stated. The original idea of Doepfer was a new standard in modular, based on his Eurorack system.
The biggest issue with non-standard is not normalisation, but modules from one manufacturer not working well with modules from another.
So Doepfer having issues with Random Source having issues with Buchla Red label etc....

Normalising standard synth patches?
When I suggested a lot of newbie modular owners underestimated the drudgery of patching basic sounds over and over in the Behringer Moog 55 thread I was unanimously stomped on as moaner and doom merchant.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
how would you implement normalized connections that are breakable?
Switched jacks, I suppose. Like the way factory-normaled ones are done.
Old 1 week ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Normalising standard synth patches?
When I suggested a lot of newbie modular owners underestimated the drudgery of patching basic sounds over and over in the Behringer Moog 55 thread I was unanimously stomped on as moaner and doom merchant.
I'm not talking about drudgery of patching basics at all, I'm talking about custom normaled paths between my own little groups of modules I use for common complex tasks, like the little patch cable that's always between my Roland 510 and the Envelope Out of my 100m ADSR that's always with the 510. Or the Quad Attenuators I have scattered about. And so on.

I don't find patching drudgery at all, myself.
Old 1 week ago
  #16
Lives for gear
 
ArtFluids's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
When I suggested a lot of newbie modular owners underestimated the drudgery of patching basic sounds over and over in the Behringer Moog 55 thread I was unanimously stomped on as moaner and doom merchant.
No, your post is what made me wonder if there would be more demand for such a thing. I think it would be really nice to settle on a preferred default patch.

I guess it's going to have to remain a DIY thing for now.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
Lives for gear
 
ImJohn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
No, your post is what made me wonder if there would be more demand for such a thing. I think it would be really nice to settle on a preferred default patch.

I guess it's going to have to remain a DIY thing for now.
More of a workaround then a solution but there are some modules out there that can help setup default patches that are easily changeable on the fly, with out any DIY or customization needed.

I haven't tried any but here's one:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/tesser...uffered-matrix
Old 1 week ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Bignatius's Avatar
Oh yeah. "Macro Controllers" are a thing.

Here's a Macro Controller kit I'm looking into, or the core of one... I'm still considering other modules and revisiting my goals before buying:



Context matters, and this is for my Groovebox... (2x DFAMs, DSM03+Phase45, and all that jazz). ^^

The one in the center is much like the cross fader on an Octatrack, with Presets, but all CV, very cool. I will also likely include two of the ADDAC CV Transitions...

But I'm not sure what else will ultimately go in this 114hp "macro controllers" row/skiff/boat.

My non-percussion modular voices are totally separate and have (and will have even more of) their own controllers, similar to these and otherwise. And the non-perc voices aren't as Semi Mod, plus they're in separate cases.

But this Groovebox thing I'm working on will be unapologetically quasi Semi Modular when I'm done, and that's been the goal all along, and it's going swimmingly. I love this stuff and these choices so far. Absolutely love it.

I'm waiting my turn for a Pulsar23, too, and will pick up an Isla SP-2400 after they're shipping.

My beat-making setup is coming along well this go around. Will be the best setup I've had.

Old 1 week ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 
ArtFluids's Avatar
Well an added benefit of "back patching" would be to get pointless cables out of the way, except when you want to override a connection.
Old 1 week ago
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
Well an added benefit of "back patching" would be to get pointless cables out of the way, except when you want to override a connection.
Oh I don't disagree.

But for now, I'll use what's out there and it's getting better every day.
Old 1 week ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 
ArtFluids's Avatar
maybe the forthcoming less-expensive Behringer modules will be fodder for soldering together into bigger synths, without feeling like you're going to accidentally destroy something pricey
Old 1 week ago
  #22
Lives for gear
 
spiderman's Avatar
Scanned through this... but didn't see any mention of "Clock Bus" and "Select Bus"

4ms, Make Noise, and WMD have all built modules that communicate internally. Things like clock normalization and preset recall can be done with these bus communication systems... sort of reduces patching per OP thoughts.
Old 1 week ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
maybe the forthcoming less-expensive Behringer modules will be fodder for soldering together into bigger synths, without feeling like you're going to accidentally destroy something pricey
Definitely. I'm already "hacking up" and modifying used Eurorack modules in various ways. There are tons of cheap and DIY deal to monkey with.
Old 1 week ago
  #24
DSC
Gear Maniac
 
DSC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius View Post
Definitely. I'm already "hacking up" and modifying used Eurorack modules in various ways. There are tons of cheap and DIY deal to monkey with.
THAT's the SPIRIT!!!

Old 1 week ago
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Stevism's Avatar
I would hate for this sort of thing to go on. It would just end up being confusing and awkward.

I wonder, are there stackable cables that instead of serving as multiples could be overridden / preference given to the cable plugged in to it?

So you could have “standard” connections patched up, then regular patching on top of that would override
Old 1 week ago
  #26
Gear Guru
 
Derp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevism View Post
I wonder, are there stackable cables that instead of serving as multiples could be overridden / preference given to the cable plugged in to it?

So you could have “standard” connections patched up, then regular patching on top of that would override
I've never heard of such a cable, but it wouldn't be hard to put together. The guy that mass-produces that will probably sell at least a few. There aren't many modules that I keep perma-patched, but I think it would be a pretty neat idea. We could call them "Stevie-Jacks".
Old 1 week ago
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Stevism's Avatar
Perfect name, love it!
Old 1 week ago
  #28
DSC
Gear Maniac
 
DSC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevism View Post
I would hate for this sort of thing to go on. It would just end up being confusing and awkward.
Evolution will be impossible to stifle or control. People with the capability will rewrite the history of 'eurorack' for generations to come. Will it be 'clean and neat' to satisfy all the OCD types. I would guess pretty unlikely.

Creativity is messy. None of us came out into this world in a puff of white marble smoke. Various fluids and blood and sometimes $h!t. Big damn mess
I love it and encourage it!

It will come as no surprise to me if someone finds a 'magical' combination of modules that will fully develop into it's own world. Gives me goosebumps, frankly.
Old 1 week ago
  #29
Except you're talking about a system and set of standards that has been in existence for 25 years.
In that time the 'evolution' that has occurred is a blurring of standards, with many people thinking they know better - which in the end makes mixing different modules from different makers more difficult, sometimes too hard.
Old 1 week ago
  #30
Gear Guru
 
Derp's Avatar
Speaking of evolution, does anybody know what the +5v rail was originally for? Dieter didn't even implement it in his own power supplies until the PSU3 came out. I'm just curious what it was originally intended for.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump