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Getting into Eurorack Modular Synthesizers
Old 10th April 2018
  #1
Gear Head
 
Crumbfort's Avatar
 

Getting into Eurorack

Hi all-

First post here as a lonnnggggg time gearslutz lurker. I'm a composer for video games/film/tv/etc (mostly games nowadays which is great). I've recently gotten really into messing around with VCV rack and it seems I've been bitten by the modular bug... never thought it would really happen, but there ya go!

Little background: I'm a reaper user. I ReWire from Reason quite a bit as I really enjoy that CV/modular type workflow. I also quite enjoy all u-he stuff (bazille in particular) along with the stuff from madrona labs. I own two Moog Sub 37s and a DSI Pro 2.

So, yeah... I started messing about with VCV a few weeks ago and it's been a bit of a revelation. Don't know quite how to describe it. Then before you know it I'm spending quite a bit of time over at modulargrid screwing around with eurorack setups. I'm contemplating selling my Pro 2 to fund the beginnings of a new eurorack setup. I've just never gotten along with the P2 as much as I thought I would... I'm not completely sure I'll sell it yet, but I'm considering it.

So! I'm looking for advice as a complete eurorack novice. I'm not quite sure where to start and it is indeed a bit overwhelming. I'm really into the Mutable Instruments modules and also the Make Noise stuff (though wow, can't say I can wrap my head around all the modules). I'd be looking to build something that can produce more unique and experimental sounds (vague, I know). I've got moog territory well covered so I'm not looking for much along those lines.

I love looping envelopes, lots of fun LFOS, really slow LFOs... I'd probably like to get MI Rings, MI Plaits, that kind of thing. (They don't make Clouds anymore?) I'd also need a good way to integrate the system with my audio interface (RME UFX) and my daw (Reaper).

But yeah! Any general advice would be hugely appreciated (even it means trying to talk me out of it! hah).

Thanks a bunch!
Old 10th April 2018
  #2
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subdo's Avatar
Some random thoughts. I doubt many of us will try to talk you out of it cause we're all there ourselves. You are defo going to spend money if you do this but it's different than the way you spend on non-modular gear. Once you get a decent set up you can throw $200-$300 at a time at it and it slowly builds up over time. Sometimes it's just a $50 mult that opens up new possibilities.

The first case is the hardest part because you're spending all this money on an empty box but don't cheap out. Small modulars can be fun but they tend to be very specialized and lend themselves to patching a specific way. IMO It's not until you are two or three rows deep that the real beauty of modular starts to become apparent. So you've probably heard it before but buy the biggest case you can afford/fit in your space.

As far as modules, you need some basics like EGs, LFOs and VCAs, Mixers. Maths is a great place to start. It does all of the above minus VCA and really isn't the complex scary thing a lot of folks make it out to be. I would get a quad VCA. It seems like every brand has it's own take on these. And then pick some interesting sound source and play around with it. All of the stuff that doesn't make a lot of sense will reveal itself. You'll realize quickly why stuff like switches and logic and clock dividers are useful.

On the topic of integration, i would say if you have a decent interface you can just plug the sum of your 4ch VCA in and it will work until you need more channels. As for the other end, I can recommend Yarns is an excellent Midi/cv interface or if you have a DC coupled interface you can use Reaktor to convert DAW piano roll to CV. Or you could just go 100% modular sequencing which can be a lot of fun for generative experimental stuff but also a little constraining when you're trying to get an actual song with parts out.

Also welcome to GS!
Old 10th April 2018
  #3
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spiderman's Avatar
I might not be the majority on this... but..

I recommend buying pre-configured modular for your first time, and focus on learning to patch early instead of trying to build without patching experience. Any of the Make Noise systems are good starters. Doepfer, Pittsburgh, etc. Semi-modular are also useful starting points: Moog Mother + DFAM or Behringer's new Neuron.

Another approach... Call Detroit Modular or Control Voltage and ask for help. They can help you budget and select the right stuff for you.

DONT be one of those guys who just buys stuff and sells stuff for 18 months before you have a system that can patch up. I see people sell "partial systems" all the time... saying "getting out of eurorack" and "selling full system" but then you look at it and can tell they're selling it because it's not a very usable modular and would be frustrating to try and work with.

Last edited by spiderman; 10th April 2018 at 09:13 PM..
Old 10th April 2018
  #4
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But.... since you mention LFOs... check out Xaoc's Batumi and Abstract Data's Octocontroller
Old 10th April 2018
  #5
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you at least need
1 osc
1 filter
1 vca
1 envelope gen
maybe 1 lfo
maybe some attenuators

or maybe a complex osc and a waveshaper/folder, function gen and vca.

1 row 84hp can make a quite usable synth, and its will cost at least a grand, but many times 1500-2k
Old 10th April 2018
  #6
All the suggestions above are good.
I'd like to ad to this:
- Limit the size of your plan. Get a 2 row case and stick with that for the first year at least. If it's full and you want something fresh, think of replacing an older module.
- Invest in a good PSU. Something capable, quality. (check the thread on PSU in this forum) Don't cut cost on this one.
- think about what you want to do with the instrument: a lot of different things are possible in 2 rows of eurorack, not just building a synth
- check the secondhand market. Occasionally here (though it's rare), Muffwiggler, there are some facebook groups, and of course Ebay and Reverb.

Planning it can be a lot of fun!
Old 10th April 2018
  #7
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Crumbfort's Avatar
 

Thanks for the replies!

@spiderman:

I definitely see the wisdom in getting a pre-configured modular system to start with. I will say, though... I have the strange urge to really start from scratch and do it bit by bit.

@Reptil:

Yeah, really good points. A 2 row case sounds like a good starting point. As far as musical intent... I mean, I've been particularly inspired by a couple videos I came across on gearslutz:

YouTube

YouTube

That very organic, evolving type sound (again, extraordinarily broad and vague, I know!). I really enjoy trying to coax bowed stringed instruments type sounds out of synths. That kind of thing.

A general question for all of you...: I have gotten really, really into VCV rack, the MI modules in particular. The new VST bridge update is out but it's early and it's quite buggy right now (at least on a mac running reaper). I'm sure they'll get it ironed out and working smoothly, though. I'm really hoping they do as I'm stoked to fit it into my workflow.

Do you still think it would be worth it for me to build a system based around quite a few MI modules, or do you have some advice about other places I should look?

Random thought: it could be fun to set it up somehow so I could process both of the Sub 37 outputs through the eurorack signal chain... could be really fun. Hah! So many options. But all of my normal "work" workflow aside, I also would love to build up to a standalone performance rig where I could have a place to mess around and make music away from the computer. I really enjoy getting out of my normal music making mindset and trying new things out, breaking loose from some of the stagnant/well worn habits I've built up.

Thanks again for your time!
Old 10th April 2018
  #8
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spiderman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbfort View Post
Thanks for the replies!

@spiderman:

I definitely see the wisdom in getting a pre-configured modular system to start with. I will say, though... I have the strange urge to really start from scratch and do it bit by bit.
Just a footnote... a prebuilt system would NOT be the end of your "start from scratch" phase. I don't care what you do, or think you're going to do... Whatever you do to start will only be the beginning of a long journey of re-configuring this system.

Trust me! I thought I could start with a Black and Gold System and be done with it. Now I have that, plus 320hp full case, and modules just laying around on shelves.
Old 10th April 2018
  #9
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Crumbfort's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
Just a footnote... a prebuilt system would NOT be the end of your "start from scratch" phase. I don't care what you do, or think you're going to do... Whatever you do to start will only be the beginning of a long journey of re-configuring this system.

Trust me! I thought I could start with a Black and Gold System and be done with it. Now I have that, plus 320hp full case, and modules just laying around on shelves.
Hah, point well taken! Hehe. I'll admit I still find the Make Noise stuff to be quite intimidating, though I am really curious about it.
Old 10th April 2018
  #10
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I would say the Make Noise modules require more work (actual patching and synthesis concept) than Mutable modules, which tend to be more plug-n-play preset machines. Rings into Clouds. Braids. Plaits. Grids. Etc. They require very little work to get something that sounds great with very few cables. As far as range of tones? Make Noise can go VERY deep. Just look at all of the possibilities for how Maths can be used!

So... sort of depends on what you want to do. Plug and play? Plumb the depths of patching potential? Etc.
Old 10th April 2018
  #11
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Crumbfort's Avatar
 

Plumbing the depths of patching potential sounds about right (Bold statement from a guy with no eurorack experience! hah).

At this point, I'd really be looking for a system that can give me unique sounds that I won't be getting out of the loads of software I've got, and that has a great tactile, hands on, what ye see is what ye get experience. Also, synthesis types/methods/etc that get me out of my normal synth comfort zone would be a big plus.
Old 10th April 2018
  #12
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I'd go for a Make Noise system and use VCV for the Mutable stuff.
Old 11th April 2018
  #13
Gear Maniac
Here is another vote for adding Make Noise Maths early in the game.

It may seem expensive for a utility module, but it opens a ton of possibilities.

YouTube

When you start out VCO/VCF and effects seem so sexy, well that doesn't change much but you will realize how utilities that allow for envelope shaping, timing and shifting give you the power to accomplish tasks that you can't do in a fixed format or soft synth.

I am making a guess on the direction you want to go and to be clear, none of my following statements are critical on other possibilities...as really it would be as absurd as criticizing Michelangelo for not using acrylic paint on the Sistine Chapel. Mutable Instruments makes great products but they often about adding capabilities to the system which are not traditional modular functions. Braids as an example is a way to add rompler style partials to your sounds.

They sound great but the Make Noise (and other vendors) modules can be dense but once you dig into them enough to understand them they also have a lot more flexibility for unique sound design or even typical functions. Take the Optomix, which is just a two channel Low Pass Gate, which sounds boring. But a side chain compressor is just a two channel Low Pass Gate and you also get crazy other FM and env style functions.

Outside of MATHS I am trying to avoid any suggestions, but it is unique enough that the 3U large format folks have created copies for their format.

IMHO, because you want to learn and in depth I would personally do the following if I had the chance to start again, which will look generic but would provide a springboard for moving on.

1) two or three VCO's if they have an LFO option
2) at least two ADSR style envs
3) a filter of your choice
4) At least 2 VCAs
5) A attenuverter like the Intellijel Triatt
6) Maths
7) At least 1 of each, buffered mult, un-buffered mult, sum, invert, slew, s&h, noise etc..
8) Some way to get notes into the system (

Basically copy the minimoog structure to start.

Then I would work through the old patch books, and even the minimoog book and figure out why you are patching it the way you are. Paying enough attention to just know how to make patches.

You will hit limitations that will frustrate you with this system, but if you focus on knowing why you are patching in a particular way you will have a pretty good idea on what you need to expand with.

I would avoid spending a lot on effects, most of them are trivial with more general modules that will have other uses.

If you want unique sounds you are going to move up to FM/audio rate/AM and other methods but it does take a small amount of play/study time to figure out what hardware and vsts have been normalizing for you.

I can't really think of a way to be more specific without knowing the style and types of sounds you are interested in but that can't stop me from trying to provide bad advise.
Old 11th April 2018
  #14
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I would avoid Make Noise! I refuse to use Maths... Just because everyone tells me I must! And their font is ridiculous to read! And who needs so many damn VCA's?

Only partly kidding!

Welcome to the friendliest forum on GS. Don't be afraid to ask questions!

Start with a 6U 104 hp case. Get at least a quad lfo and quad envelope... That gives you lots of modulation to throw at different things.

Look for unique and unusual oscillators and pair them with a couple filters.

And your Pro 2 is an excellent modular controller and sequencer.
Old 11th April 2018
  #15
Detroit Modular has a b-stock Doepfer LC6 for $330.00, that'd be a great case to get started with.

DETROIT MODULAR : Doepfer A-100LC6sw : Used
Old 11th April 2018
  #16
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void23's Avatar
Another useless recommendation ... Get a Mantis for a case. Best bang for your buck and you get two 104hp rows.

As for Mutable Instrument's stuff ... *YES* get it. I started with a mostly MI row in my case, along with an Rossum Evolution because I loved that E-mu sound. The MI stuff is great, I especially loved playing with the esoteric hidden features (darn you Oliver for no longer doing that ).

As for the Make Noise system, I played with one a couple months back. For two rows, I found it extremely limiting with what I could do with a similar sized system that I'd piece together.
Old 11th April 2018
  #17
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My starter system was an E350, a Phase Displacement Oscillator (PDO), a Maths and an Optomix in a TipTop Happy Ending Kit (HEK). If I were going to do it again, knowing what I’ve learned, instead of the 2 oscillators I bought, I would have just gotten the MakeNoise DPO. I would run it all from a Beatstep Pro. That rig would give you so much to start with. It could be 1 amazingly complex voice, 2 simpler yet complete voices...

From there I would add something like the moddemix and another looping type envelope/LFO then a random. Or maybe start with the intellijel Quadra instead of the maths and later add the expander. I’m a little biased towards Serge/Buchla inspired modules though.
Old 11th April 2018
  #18
Absolutely nothing wrong with Mutable Instruments. But if you want 'unique' sounds, I wouldn't go down that road. Almost everyone in modular has cases full of MI, and the sound of Clouds, Braids and Plaits can be heard everywhere you look.
Actually better to go off the beaten track a bit IMO.
There's a new noise/chaos module about to be released by Schlappi Engineering.
I have a lot of time for Moffenzeef Modular.
You could look at the Catalyst Buchla 100 series inspired modules. The weird electronic music of old was really invented on Buchla 100 (and Serge).
The best thing to do to be honest is get to a store that has systems you can try in person.
Like others, I've bought modules, tried them, thought "meh" and sold them a few months later. At the time there was no store within travelling distance i could demo modules at.
Old 11th April 2018
  #19
Gear Maniac
 

If i had to start over again i would get a case with a extra 1u row to fill with utility modules. The Intellijel 7u 104 looks like a great starter case.
Old 11th April 2018
  #20
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spiderman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by void23 View Post
As for the Make Noise system, I played with one a couple months back. For two rows, I found it extremely limiting with what I could do with a similar sized system that I'd piece together.
Limiting?!? I can't even understand this, unless you only spent a few minutes with it and were looking for that instant plug-in-play thing. Listen to some of the Make Noise recordings from Alessandro Cortini, Richard Devine, Bana Haffar, etc. There is HUGE sonic potential in a Shared System. Two experiments from my box...

Gritty Drone builds to Hendrix style feedback (almost sounds like bowed cymbals)


IDK what to say about this... it sounds like cats having sex with a space ship. Not "a song" but from a sound design POV... huge resources in this.


Not to be too contrarian.... but if you haven't owned one or had much patching experience with a system... I wouldn't call it limited because you didn't "get it" in the first few minutes of dicking around. Maybe that type of patching isn't what you're looking for? Want to sound like R Beny? Buy two Rings and two Clouds and a Lo Fi Junky and you're done. And that's sort of my original point... Mutable is plug-in-play and doesn't require as much creative patching. (Not to say you can't get very deep creative stuff when used as parts of a larger system) It's very gratifying for anyone. Make Noise stuff requires time and effort... but has a MUCH deeper "potential per module" than something like Grids or Braids which are practically "preset" modules.

Last edited by spiderman; 11th April 2018 at 12:51 PM..
Old 11th April 2018
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbfort View Post
As far as musical intent... I mean, I've been particularly inspired by a couple videos I came across on gearslutz:

YouTube

YouTube

That very organic, evolving type sound (again, extraordinarily broad and vague, I know!). I really enjoy trying to coax bowed stringed instruments type sounds out of synths. That kind of thing.
......snip.....
Yeah those pieces from Ann Annie are just gorgeous. The other video nice too.
I think you have some starting points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbfort View Post
Do you still think it would be worth it for me to build a system based around quite a few MI modules, or do you have some advice about other places I should look?
Considering the tone: Have a look at the three new AJH modules.
The phaser in particular impressed me. I hope to hear it in real life next month. link to thread
Also that new Strymon Magneto is worth a look. link to thread
I have a Musicthing Spring Reverb module with a spring tank.
A real spring sounds quite organic. link to manufacturer. It's a DIY kit but very simple to build.
Expensive but very cool sounding is the "Lofi Junky" module. You'll hear it in Ann Annie's patches as well.

Honestly.. there are so many cool modules out. Very high quality to cheap and simple. If I'd post what I like it would be a long list. I do want to mention L-1, Birdkids, Endorphin:es, and ACL. Both are close in performance to the impeccable Cwejman.
But Verbos, Intellijel, Erica Synths, the Harvestman, Frap Tools, 4MS, Animodule, Doepfer... all good stuff...
Going DIY is a good idea too. There's nice projects available like Befaco. It's time consuming to build your own modules, but most Mutable instruments are available as DIY (open source) so that's a point worth considering!

There's quite a lot of choices for sequencers, utility modules such as mixers, mults, clock dividers and multipliers, random.
There's some popular ones like the Maths module already mentioned, a module that can do a lot, but there's more like those. There's digital modules now as well, like the Ornament & Crime in short O_c, or the Rossum Electro Music Control Forge. Both very capable multi function modules.
Personally, I like the directness of analogue envelope/LFO modules, and the slightly imperfect nature of those.

Envelopes, VCA can really help shape your sound. Do you want slow, fast, punch? Worth investing time to look for "that perfect" envelope generator.
VCA: I have some cheap ones, and a bunch of high end clean stuff. I'm lacking in the "vintage sound" VCA department. You can't have enough VCAs. Impossible!

And there's a whole SHEDLOAD of new modules coming next month, at the Superbooth18 in Berlin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbfort View Post
Random thought: it could be fun to set it up somehow so I could process both of the Sub 37 outputs through the eurorack signal chain... could be really fun. Hah! So many options. But all of my normal "work" workflow aside,
yes, that IS a lot of fun. Two identical filters, a clock syncable MIDI-CV interface, a stereo mixer, and LFO-Envelope-Sequencer, and you have your own external filter for any DAW or synth or sampler audio you like. Add more stereo pairs of filters, later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbfort View Post
I also would love to build up to a standalone performance rig where I could have a place to mess around and make music away from the computer. I really enjoy getting out of my normal music making mindset and trying new things out, breaking loose from some of the stagnant/well worn habits I've built up.
So, then don't build something that resembles the hardwired synths you already have. Instead have a look at slightly different ideas, the so-called "West Coast" approach to synthesis: Buchla 200 and 200e systems and Serge. Not saying you have to buy a Buchla, you could, but you can use those ideas as inspiration.


Oh, one last thing: don't forget a good MIDI-CV or DAW-CV interface (Expert Sleepers), and if you don't get the O_c then consider a nice quantizer. (check the threads about that)

I'm just scraping on top of the visible part of the iceberg here. So much gear, so little time!
Old 11th April 2018
  #22
Gear Head
 
Crumbfort's Avatar
 

Quote:
yes, that IS a lot of fun. Two identical filters, a clock syncable MIDI-CV interface, a stereo mixer, and LFO-Envelope-Sequencer, and you have your own external filter for any DAW or synth or sampler audio you like. Add more stereo pairs of filters, later.
Wow, didn't even think of that and I do not know why. Actually might be able to set it up with a dummy ADSR in Bazille, parameter linked to reacontrol midi and do the same with an unused filter control.... whoa. Yesss.....

Quote:
And your Pro 2 is an excellent modular controller and sequencer.
I'm feeling genuinely torn about the Pro 2. Part of me feels like I haven't really given it a fair chance to shine and another part of me feels like I'm just not connecting with it and I shouldn't overthink getting rid of it. Would it be shortsighted of me to sell it off to fund my entry into eurorack, or should I take the more patient approach and keep it to power eurorack stuff down the road? Hm, gotta think about that one.

And thanks for the awesome recommendations, everyone! Looking forward to researching and checking them all out.
Old 11th April 2018
  #23
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subdo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbfort View Post
Would it be shortsighted of me to sell it off to fund my entry into eurorack, or should I take the more patient approach and keep it to power eurorack stuff down the road? Hm, gotta think about that one.

I haven't used the pro2 sequencer but there are definitely cheaper ways to play your modular. I mean a Korg SQ1 is $99.
Old 11th April 2018
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumbfort View Post
I'm feeling genuinely torn about the Pro 2. Part of me feels like I haven't really given it a fair chance to shine and another part of me feels like I'm just not connecting with it and I shouldn't overthink getting rid of it. Would it be shortsighted of me to sell it off to fund my entry into eurorack, or should I take the more patient approach and keep it to power eurorack stuff down the road? Hm, gotta think about that one.

And thanks for the awesome recommendations, everyone! Looking forward to researching and checking them all out.
Only you know if you’ve given it a fair shake or not. It’s true the Pro2 will give you a good controller and sequencer for euro but if you don’t like it then that doesn’t really matter. For some perspective, I sold my Elektron Analog keys (also a great controller and sequencer for euro) to buy modules and years later I haven’t missed it. However, I had it a good long while and really tried to make it work before shedding it.
Personally I would sell it. If you miss it you can always get another one. Just don’t lose your shirt in the deal so you don’t feel bad about it.
Old 11th April 2018
  #25
Gear Head
 
Crumbfort's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaughtrhaus View Post
Only you know if you’ve given it a fair shake or not. It’s true the Pro2 will give you a good controller and sequencer for euro but if you don’t like it then that doesn’t really matter. For some perspective, I sold my Elektron Analog keys (also a great controller and sequencer for euro) to buy modules and years later I haven’t missed it. However, I had it a good long while and really tried to make it work before shedding it.
Personally I would sell it. If you miss it you can always get another one. Just don’t lose your shirt in the deal so you don’t feel bad about it.
Yeah, you're probably right. I'm gonna continue to think on it for a while (as I tend to overthink most everything) but that seems like a wise course of action.


Quote:
Limiting?!? I can't even understand this, unless you only spent a few minutes with it and were looking for that instant plug-in-play thing. Listen to some of the Make Noise recordings from Alessandro Cortini, Richard Devine, Bana Haffar, etc. There is HUGE sonic potential in a Shared System. Two experiments from my box...

Gritty Drone builds to Hendrix style feedback (almost sounds like bowed cymbals)
That... is really awesome. That video gave me some serious GAS. $4500 for the shared system, though, derf! Out of my price range for the foreseeable future, unless a project comes up where I can justify the purchase. But dang, cool stuff! Perhaps starting with a smaller setup where I can build up to something like that could be good route to take.
Old 11th April 2018
  #26
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TMT75's Avatar
Hmmm, if you liked the MI in vcv rack, I should start with that. Why not?
Get at least Plaits, Ring, Veils, Ripples, Tides, Shades and Marbles. Wait for the new MI modules to come in the mean time and buy them too. Ohhh...and don’t forget ears.....
Old 11th April 2018
  #27
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TMT75's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMT75 View Post
Hmmm, if you liked the MI in vcv rack, I should start with that. Why not?
Get at least Plaits, Ring, Veils, Ripples, Tides, Shades and Marbles. Wait for the new MI modules to come in the mean time and buy them too. Ohhh...and don’t forget ears.....
Or Elements......
Old 11th April 2018
  #28
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i built this 1 row a few days ago. its very powerful. has everything you need and nothing you dont you could do a lot worse than this.

Getting into Eurorack-1row.jpg
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Old 11th April 2018
  #29
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Old 12th April 2018
  #30
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lineofcontrol's Avatar
 

If you watch Mylar Melodies and DivKid videos you will go Full Derp.

Consider yourself warned.
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