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Uli Behringer's deeply concerning post
Old 18th March 2017
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namnibor View Post
May I presume that would be strawberry pie?
...
How about an ulibherry pie instead? Or perhaps not...
Old 19th March 2017
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
Has the thread where Uli says this been deleted or can you direct me to it? Only thing I could find remotely related here was this from the D clone thread.



That I do not percieve as a threat.

As far as your link goes, it seemed that the poster in question was riding the copy-cat-discourse and unfortunately revealed himself as an DSI employee.



One thing is statements from regular and often anonymous posters, another if a poster turns out to be employed by a competing company. Now Uli does obviously not share the view that he breaks the law, when the courts say otherwise. Whether his inspirations and reverse engineering otherwise are ethically questionable is subordinated to the question whether he breaks the law in the first place (and quite subjective). If the claim is put forward without evidence by someone representing a competing company, of course you will risk legal consequences.
Im sure the threads still there, I think its the "model D what do you think" thread...but, like many of the begringer threads, it had quite a bit moderated out for being off topic, making unsubstantiated accusations, or just repeating the same points...not sure if anything said by Uli was though.
Old 19th March 2017
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
I can swear that I've read the first oscillator is analog but the second is digital. That's why the amount of waves have been restricted for the second oscillator to what can be reproduced digitally with no artifacts or aliasing.
Never heard of that...and it doesn´t seem to make sense, since there wouldn´t be a reason to diminish the amount of waveforms when you could easily encrease them and actually add waveforms an analog OSC can not produce.
Anyway, every test I saw mentioned 2 analog OSCs, so does the manual. I wouldn´t suspect a conspiracy here
Old 19th March 2017
  #94
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Originally Posted by ionian View Post
I can swear that I've read the first oscillator is analog but the second is digital. That's why the amount of waves have been restricted for the second oscillator to what can be reproduced digitally with no artifacts or aliasing.
If thats the case then sweetwater etc have set themselves up for some litigation


"two digitally controlled analog oscillators"


Is the spec description
Old 19th March 2017
  #95
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I could have swore I read that somewhere but obviously I'm mistaken. My apologies if I spread misinformation by accident.

Reminds me of something I heard once - "I'm never wrong. I thought I was once but I was mistaken."
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Old 19th March 2017
  #96
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Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
...same could be said of you as well. Why bother pointing this out, if you feel it's so trivial? Clearly this does matter to you to some degree, otherwise you wouldn't have responded, right?

So, you can stand on a soapbox or judgement central, and no one else can? What gives man? Your bubble's different?
You might not have noticed but I'm not the one saying I find someone's comments about synths deeply concerning. I'm not on any soapbox. What I am actually doing in the last few minutes is helping a disabled child go to bed. Not deeply concerned about the f...g world of synths & whether a copy of a 40 something year old design, of which there already lots of copies, is sold for a fair bit less than 4 grand.
Old 19th March 2017
  #97
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Originally Posted by Pelevin View Post
What I am actually doing in the last few minutes is helping a disabled child go to bed.
Good for you...

as to the rest, well, objectively, logically, if you criticize and essentially act in the same manner, it's a not a good look.

Again, you cannot be faulted for being a warm hearted individual for helping a disabled child...cheers, and bravo, but it's disingenuous to harp on and say it's trivial, when you care to comment as such in the same manner in the same thread...it's hard to ignore the paradoxical nature of it

just sayin'

peace, and cheers...
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Old 19th March 2017
  #98
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Pie

Quote:
Originally Posted by namnibor View Post
May I presume that would be strawberry pie? With or without rhubarb? More of a carrot cake with cream cheese frosting or without.
Pretty much I like all pies except a couple. Not a big fan of cake except carrot cake with that good frosting.

Just had a nice slice of homemade cherry pie after supper tonight.

Mmmmmmm PIE.
Old 19th March 2017
  #99
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I for one will never by a Behringer unit of any kind that creates or passes audio. A midi controller perhaps.

When I was new to Audio I tried one, an Ultra curve. it was complete crap in terms of sound quality. Once burned, never again.

When first leaning and mixing etc, there stuff looks good on paper. Once you use something better you never look back.

I to am concerned about the companies who make quality products being pushed out by the crap.

However, I will also say the same thing for Roland drum brains. predatory patents have prevented many others from entering into the E-drum market with success. However, Roland did at least work it out at the start with real innovation. Ill buy a Roland products even though I don't like how they killed Hart drums and many other Edrum companies.

Behringer is pure evil unless you need your first mixer for the garage.
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Old 19th March 2017
  #100
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Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
I for one will never by a Behringer unit of any kind that creates or passes audio. A midi controller perhaps.

When I was new to Audio I tried one, an Ultra curve. it was complete crap in terms of sound quality. Once burned, never again.

When first leaning and mixing etc, there stuff looks good on paper. Once you use something better you never look back.

I to am concerned about the companies who make quality products being pushed out by the crap.

However, I will also say the same thing for Roland drum brains. predatory patents have prevented many others from entering into the E-drum market with success. However, Roland did at least work it out at the start with real innovation. Ill buy a Roland products even though I don't like how they killed Hart drums and many other Edrum companies.

Behringer is pure evil unless you need your first mixer for the garage.
I remember driving a honda civic in '77, piece of junk...wont touch a Honda/Acura ever again. Rubbish





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Old 19th March 2017
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcearl View Post
Im sure the threads still there, I think its the "model D what do you think" thread...but, like many of the begringer threads, it had quite a bit moderated out for being off topic, making unsubstantiated accusations, or just repeating the same points...not sure if anything said by Uli was though.
I cannot find anything in that thread beyond what I already posted, but it seems like Uli had a post in Sweizerdeutsch deleted, was that it?
Old 19th March 2017
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knolan View Post
In this post (see URL below) on Gearslutz, Uli Behringer calls into question the costs associated with Moog production. Surely that constitutes an attack on Moog? Meanwhile, his company, in many instances, does no ‘blue-skies / exploratory’ R&D (is he even aware of the costs of true synthesiser R&D?); has a legacy of poor quality and of copying other companys' technology; and avails of the most dubious manufacturing practices in China - yet feels comfortable using all of that as the basis of an attack on the founding company in modern music synthesis

For me his post is worrying on so many levels. He presents to a forum likely dominated by young musicians a false perspective on the likes of Moog (and therefore all similar companies) - presents a bogus proposition that what Moog do can be done for one tenth the cost; and offers cheap copies of that technology as the route ahead. If successful, he will dismantle the validity of Moog’s and others’ approach and cost-base needed to innovate, and will devalue the World’s legacy of astounding instruments; meanwhile flooding the market with cheap copies that we all know cannot be of quality if they cost nothing to build.

Behringer’s approach, rather than based on innovative new instrument, is based on attacking other companies, shedding doubt over their legacy and intent of running them out of business; meanwhile taking their technology and cloning it!

And just let’s just do a little 'reminder' comparison: Moog of late have put out an actual original Minimoog for anyone who wants it; and have created the masterpiece that is the Sub37; meanwhile Behringer put out a polysynth based on the Juno 106 and then a very cheap looking Minimoog module. Yet Uli Behringer feels comfortable with attacking Moog and claiming that Behringer are the future (with 20 graduates as his crack-team I might add).

If Behringer get their way, we'll suffer a generation of cheap junk from this outfit - at the expense of innovative companies they'll run out of business. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" comes to mind...



https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12472785-post87.html



.
This new moog did not innovate anything, did you look at the Model D, no R&D needed as even the quite ugly wooden look is still the same. I don't share your views, sorry grandpa!
Old 19th March 2017
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
I for one will never by a Behringer unit of any kind that creates or passes audio. A midi controller perhaps.

When I was new to Audio I tried one, an Ultra curve. it was complete crap in terms of sound quality. Once burned, never again.

When first leaning and mixing etc, there stuff looks good on paper. Once you use something better you never look back.

I to am concerned about the companies who make quality products being pushed out by the crap.

However, I will also say the same thing for Roland drum brains. predatory patents have prevented many others from entering into the E-drum market with success. However, Roland did at least work it out at the start with real innovation. Ill buy a Roland products even though I don't like how they killed Hart drums and many other Edrum companies.

Behringer is pure evil unless you need your first mixer for the garage.
You do know that DSi, Elektron, Boss and varioud eurorack modules use filter/osc chips made by behringer?
Beware those if you don't want to pass audio trough behringer components. Also if it has BBD it might be made by behringer.
Old 19th March 2017
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
I cannot find anything in that thread beyond what I already posted, but it seems like Uli had a post in Sweizerdeutsch deleted, was that it?
Okay, I found this in the What synth should Behringer make next -thread:

Quote:
It is disappointing to see people posting false and highly inflammatory statements about our workers and our company.

Look guys you can criticize me or our company - that’s all fine and I have no problem with it. But making false or defamatory statements is just not cool - especially when it is about our people.

Only recently did we have to take action against a competitor which is truly unfortunate. If needed we will take a stand and protect our people and company
While the last sentence could be read as a threat (though I still don't), I see no pointing to common posters. Behringer would have to spend all savings on lawyers for that purpose, and who can really control the rivers of **** flowing on the net? The thought is absurd.

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 21st March 2017 at 12:06 AM..
Old 19th March 2017
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Burrito View Post
You do know that DSi, Elektron, Boss and varioud eurorack modules use filter/osc chips made by behringer?
They do ? Which ones ?
Old 20th March 2017
  #106
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Allow me to share a thought.

Dave Smith Instruments (DSI) is using our SSM clones (V2164).
homemade polysynth — A quick tour of the Prophet 6 voice card

Elektron are using Coolaudio parts as well.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/psychl...7632621387322/

Many other leading manufacturers are using Coolaudio chips and by using these parts obviously have no concerns with cloning in general and with using our chips in their products.

If our competitors are not concerned then why should customers be?

Uli
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Old 20th March 2017
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Allow me to share a thought.

If our competitors are not concerned then why should customers be?

Uli
Short answer is that they shouldn't if it isn't illegal, polluting, or unethical.

Last thing cannot be decided in court and this is were it all becomes a mess. Whether one shouldn't do this or that with otherwise available technology out of respect or other ethics is entirely a subjective matter and must be the customer's personal choice.
Old 20th March 2017
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Allow me to share a thought.

Dave Smith Instruments (DSI) is using our SSM clones (V2164).
homemade polysynth — A quick tour of the Prophet 6 voice card

Elektron are using Coolaudio parts as well.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/psychl...7632621387322/

Many other leading manufacturers are using Coolaudio chips and by using these parts obviously have no concerns with cloning in general and with using our chips in their products.

If our competitors are not concerned then why should customers be?

Uli
Yeah i know that. Those VCA chips are "everywhere" but he specifically said osc/filter chips which i'm pretty sure there are exactly zero since you haven't delivered any (yet).

In a discussion with so much emotion and so little facts,i figured we could at least get the facts straight.
Old 20th March 2017
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Allow me to share a thought.

Dave Smith Instruments (DSI) is using our SSM clones (V2164).
homemade polysynth — A quick tour of the Prophet 6 voice card

Elektron are using Coolaudio parts as well.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/psychl...7632621387322/

Many other leading manufacturers are using Coolaudio chips and by using these parts obviously have no concerns with cloning in general and with using our chips in their products.

If our competitors are not concerned then why should customers be?

Uli
I don't think it is too wise to get involved in this asinine and absurd debate.

I can understand your frustration at some of the statements here, but, to quote Macbeth "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound a fury, signifying nothing."

I have no idea why you and your company are hated by some - if they don't like you or your products, my advice to them would be to not buy them!

<snip - come on, you know better!>

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 21st March 2017 at 12:07 AM..
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Old 20th March 2017
  #110
It's easy to talk sideways about the guy on an Internet forum, where we have access to his resume and accomplishments without ever having to expose our own.

It's times like these where I wish everyone bad-mouthing someone should have to lay their nuts on the table. Who are some of you? What makes your opinion something Uli or I or anyone should even care to read?

It would be interesting to see how many of the disgruntled folks live in their parents basements, never owned Behringer gear in their lives, have crap music, etc.

Or the folks complaining about shady business practices, or human rights issues... I wonder how many of them are just regurgitating crap they found on another forum just to sound quasi-intelligent.

Whatever.
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Old 20th March 2017
  #111
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Allow me to share a thought.

Dave Smith Instruments (DSI) is using our SSM clones (V2164).
homemade polysynth — A quick tour of the Prophet 6 voice card

Elektron are using Coolaudio parts as well.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/psychl...7632621387322/

Many other leading manufacturers are using Coolaudio chips and by using these parts obviously have no concerns with cloning in general and with using our chips in their products.

If our competitors are not concerned then why should customers be?

Uli
Thanks for chiming in. My _only_ beef with your post was calling into question Moog's pricing. Whether or not you have a point, bringing up such a complex issue on a forum like this is unfair - there are many issues associated with costs as full well you know.

It comes across as a calculating stab at a traditional synthesizer company - surely one we should surely be celebrating given its legacy.

And as just one reminder - your company is involved in a lot more than synthesis. Synthesis is a tough business - but despite that we have an awesome legacy of past synths which you yourself laud and hope to reinvigorate - so it would surely have done everyone more good - including Behringer's reputation - had you merely indicated newer ways of reducing costs - without challenging other company's modus-operandi?

There's room for everyone in this more global market - but again I remind - synth companies like Moog are precarious - but necessary in the pantheon of synthesis - and could do without challenges from the likes of yourself - on forums like this.

How Behringer handled DM12 w.r.t to Roland's past technology was pretty bang-on - would be nice to see that balance proliferate all your synth activities.

Sincerely,
Kevin Nolan.
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Old 20th March 2017
  #112
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<snip>

Actually, I've been thinking about picking up a new mic and I'm kind of drifting between a Blue Kiwi and an AT5040 so that's kind of an important thing for me, too.

But yeah, I make a living mostly doing session work and sideman work and thankfully I'm pretty booked to the end of the year. Money is coming in, my phone is ringing, I've been travelling (last week I was in Orlando for session work, this week I'm getting flown to Santa Clara - being based in freezing NYC, I'm happy to get what little warm weather I can!) I'm getting paid to play and travel. I'm in my 27th year making a living solely as a professional musician - a career people still insist you can't make a living in. My healthcare is paid up. My insurance is paid up. I just bought a new dishwasher for my house. I can make my bills every month without much effort. My relationship with my fiancee is pretty solid. Thank God no one close to me is sick or dying. It's been a pretty good year.

So yeah, I guess I don't really have any worries besides if the second oscillator is analog or digital. Oh yeah, and what mic to buy next for my little home studio for my side projects when I have some down time.

<snip>

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 21st March 2017 at 12:12 AM..
Old 20th March 2017
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
So yeah, I guess I don't really have any worries besides if the second oscillator is analog or digital.
If you can't hear is it analog or digital then why do you care about it?
You either like the sound of it or not. It's quite simple.

I owned EDP Wasp for years thinking it's full analog synth. When i found out that it's part digital it didn't start to sound any worse :D
Old 21st March 2017
  #114
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I can say I definitely enjoyed these forums more before the inception of Behringer.

In hindsight I wish I never posted in a single B thread.

I really have nothing against the clone game, it never bothered me before and doesn't now. I always had a problem from the start with the false claims that are:

Cost of parts
Style of Manufacturing
Safety of materials

It wasn't so much a problem with Uli bringing up those subjects rather the posters that took those claims and mutated them beyond comprehension.

Then there is the matter of litigation. The person probably brought it on themselves and the company they are affiliated with. It still seems like a low blow to me but that's the world we live in for better or worse.

I thought I provided some facts and reality with my posts but probably just got sucked into the storm like the majority of other participants. I should of ignored a certain member who openly mentions their mental illness. I guess they have as much of a right to post as anyone else no matter how nonsensical they may seem.

The easiest thing to do is ignore the threads.

Would like to say I'm sorry to anyone I offended or angered. I really have no interest in the matter, but being bored at home awaiting knee surgery can do that to ya.

I do take issue with certain fanatics calling me a sad person and saying they feel sorry for me. Quickly editing your post from an insult to a question is quite sad in my opinion. You know who you are...
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Old 21st March 2017
  #115
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My post in the Electronic forum got deleted so I'll just repeat here what I said there in response to Uli's lawsuit threat: Corporate behaviour on an open forum is not very cool. He may be right but he comes across as vindictive and opportunistic. In my libellios opinion.
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Old 22nd March 2017
  #116
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Two world views collide:

Scarcity Mentality: " If Behringer get their way, we'll suffer a generation of cheap junk from this outfit - at the expense of innovative companies they'll run out of business."

Abundance Mentality: " We at Midas and Behringer believe in bringing these instruments back and making them affordable so everyone can play and enjoy them."

Your choice. Choose wisely.
Old 22nd March 2017
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by color View Post
Your choice. Choose wisely.
I choose a free market. Always.
Old 22nd March 2017
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DomiBabi View Post
It would be interesting to see how many of the disgruntled folks live in their parents basements, never owned Behringer gear in their lives, have crap music, etc.

Or the folks complaining about shady business practices, or human rights issues... I wonder how many of them are just regurgitating crap they found on another forum just to sound quasi-intelligent.
I do not live in my parents basement, but my music is crap and I have never owned anything Behringer. Neither have I owned anything Moog for that matter. I find that there is very little innovation happening in either company as of lately, but it could be because I'm more of an experimentalist, and I don't really care to validate that feeling.

The market will go whichever way it wants, time will tell. Nothing lasts forever, and some things are only for one summer. I am more concerned by Uli Behringer himself and his behaviour on this forum, flexing his legal muscle when clearly all you see is a heated discussion between people who are neither robots nor lawyers.

It seems clear to me that his attitude has not changed after he created the Nevermind 12, but that he is still running the corporation who created (what looked to me - libel caveat) straight clones of other equipment without any scruples whatsoever. Being right legally does not make it alright in my eyes.

I can only talk from my perspective and I welcome any comments which will broaden my view on this.
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Old 23rd March 2017
  #119
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clones

I don't see what the big deal is if he builds clones or not. As long as they are legal. Every product gets cloned, whether its a musical instrument or toilet paper. That's why getting to market first is where the money is on the front end. Cloning for cheap on the back end.

I stand by "You get what you pay for."
Old 23rd March 2017
  #120
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If I was in Uli's shoes I would just buy Moog and leverage the same resource sharing strategies as done with pro brands like Midas and others who were acquired in recent years. They are likely just a drop in the bucket for Music Group and would fit in nicely with some of the other aquisitions, as well as eliminate patent restrictions etc.

Some people don't seem to be aware that Behringer is a very different company now than they were even 5 years ago. Their quality has improved dramatically, their support was overhauled, their warranties are solid, and they are actually making sizable R&D investments. The X32 line of mixers is a great example of a ground-up original design that was VERY disruptive in the industry and has sold phenomenally well, with a solid reputation as a reliable product for the price point. I see no reason why they can't do this in the synth market if they want to. While most of their gear is not targeted to my interests, I don't think they are deserving of so much negativity. Keep in mind I felt very differently 5+ years ago.
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