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Tokyo Dawn Labs Kotelnikov Mastering Compressor Dynamics Plugins
Old 9th March 2018
  #271
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thanks fabien i will try that, i really like the compressor but usually go for other options for drums .

this thing happen on many compressor, i think it may be just the compression curve i don t know..or the caractere , for a example dc8c2 as well is a bit similar in that aspect, even if it s possible to get some snap, the transient is still more smoothed/ rounded than the uncompressed sound, i think it's why these compressors sound smooth / never agressive but i find it s not transparent.
Old 21st March 2018
  #272
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How could I possibly have overlooked this for so long? Saw it mentioned a few times in the free plugin thread on GS recently and installed it along with some other freebies. In my mind, if it's free, it's average at best. Just threw it on a vocal to check it out, using one of the vocal presets, and I sat right up and...whoa, what was that? Literally turned my head around. Anyway, had to buy the GE to help support this fine work. Yep, it's right up there with the best comps I own!
Old 22nd March 2018
  #273
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTruffleKing View Post
In my mind, if it's free, it's average at best.
Free is relative in this world of 0s and 1s. But an honest, rationally inspired customer is priceless!

Thanks for your support
Old 22nd March 2018
  #274
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Slug1's Avatar
I remember my post on this thread saying I wanted to compare it to a Weiss DS1 because Kotelnikov is such an amazing compressor. It’s been my main dynamics processor since I obtained it. Now the Weiss is out in plug-in form. Now is my chance to compare, only from a compressor perspective. Of course the Weiss has additional tools. But will try to do it this weekend if I can find time. I had a recent trap track with a vocal that was totally uncontrolled and all over the place. They couldn’t go back to the mix. Kotelnikov allowed me to control the vocal so transparently will allowing the 808, Kik, and low end to boom and thump. It was incredible. The artist and producer were amazed. Love this plugin.
Old 22nd March 2018
  #275
To be honest, the Weiss mind of thought was a huge inspiration for Kotelnikov. I "took" more from others as well, GML, Orbans and the STC-8, but as a fascinated long term Weiss owner, my whole motivation in making plugins was to have something comparable ITB. If the Weiss plugin had appeared 10 years earlier, I'd likely never had started to learn making plugins or even coding at all.

In that sense, I'm looking forward hearing about your results.
Old 22nd March 2018
  #276
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The dual release scheme is genius
Old 22nd March 2018
  #277
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mmarra's Avatar
The TDR Kotelnikov is my go to ITB compressor. I haven't tried the Weiss plug as I have had issues installing the demo. We have the DS-1 hardware at our studio so the Weiss plugin would be interesting to hear. But with that said the TDR Kotelnikov is very transparent and easy to dial in. The free version of the Kotelnikov really good but if you can spring the 40 euro cost the GE is amazing...pretty much the same sound but more features.

It will be interesting what people say about the Softube Weiss vs. the Kotelnikov.
Old 22nd March 2018
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarra View Post
The TDR Kotelnikov is my go to ITB compressor. I haven't tried the Weiss plug as I have had issues installing the demo. We have the DS-1 hardware at our studio so the Weiss plugin would be interesting to hear. But with that said the TDR Kotelnikov is very transparent and easy to dial in. The free version of the Kotelnikov really good but if you can spring the 40 euro cost the GE is amazing...pretty much the same sound but more features.

It will be interesting what people say about the Softube Weiss vs. the Kotelnikov.
both are well thought out and great sounding processors. to say which one is "better" is IMO not the best question to ask. more interesting is at what do they shine?

to me kotelnikov is the more versatile tool, not in the sense that I could use it as a deesser like the weiss, but in the way I can use it in my set up for different compression tasks. it also handles higher gain reduction better (if needed). I think kotelnikov GE in insane mode sounds more neutral, natural and modern wheras the weiss seems to have this special tone that so many like which can be a great thing - but sometimes I prefer a more "honest" and "uncolored" sounding compressor that just does what it´s supposed to do. odd to say with supposedly "clean" sounding digital processors I know, but that´s just a way to try to describe what I´m hearing.

I would still not say that a digital tool has a boxtone, I think it´s it´s just another way to describe how the algorithm behaves in each cpmpressor. they both for sure don´t sound "analog" in any possible way.
would be interesting to hear fabiens thoughts on this.

funny that fabien mentioned the STC 8 (m version here with sidechain activated), because I use it all the time together with the kotelnikov GE and you can do amazing things with this combo!

Last edited by mastermat; 22nd March 2018 at 04:01 PM..
Old 22nd March 2018
  #279
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i don t know about the weiss but on a mix bus or mastering the Tdr need really carefull tweaking , some compressors are more easy to set up and give a good sound in few tweaks, you will probably be abble to beat it with the TDr in the end to get a 5 or 10 % better sound but it will need very carefull tweaking , and yes it worth it for peeky people ( i m talking around 1 to 2 db max of Gr here with low ratio ), but it s also quite easy to get not so great result with it, for me it' s not easy to get the best out of it but when i m there on the right source it will be hard to beat.

i don t know why i was never using the ying / yang but it can make a good difference in the overall sound caractere, it just happened i couldn t beat no matter how hard i tryed some other comps and with this i could, it just gave me a little more hifi polished sound wihlle wihtout it, the overall caractere was not so great on this mix...i mean it was clean, but clean slighty boring, not clean $$$ polished

Last edited by Fred_Abstract; 22nd March 2018 at 05:37 PM..
Old 22nd March 2018
  #280
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermat View Post
I would still not say that a digital tool has a boxtone, I think it´s it´s just another way to describe how the algorithm behaves in each cpmpressor. they both for sure don´t sound "analog" in any possible way.
would be interesting to hear fabiens thoughts on this.
If you like to associate the term "boxtone" with the magic of top of the line analogue processing, it totally makes sense. That's what Slate and several others attempt to do, and definitely achieve great things in that area.

If we describe "boxtone" as a predictable audible behavior, I'd definitely say that "pure" digital algorithms also have a tendency to move sound in a way or another, not unlike analogue boxes do.

They do it differently, though. Analogue gear primarily shows great variance in nonlinear behavior, or in simple terms, shows very deep and delicate variance of saturation effects. Most design effort goes into fighting and controlling the inherent nonlinearities.

Digital concepts on the other hand primarily differ in the way they try to fulfill laws of the sampling theorem (antialiasing, quantization, Nyquist warping). Here, most effort goes into controlling these digital specific side-effects.

I understand that the digital type of variance is literally boring when compared to analogue. I definitely can hear aliasing loud and clear, discontinuities in the audio path, linear interpolation or warping effects. I hear badly aliased control paths in many dynamics processors. But these mistakes literally shaped the way dubstep or drum & bass "is expected to sound", so you can't call it wrong either. All isn't exactly exciting, and doesn't impose the "3D" subtle and delicate analogue saturation naturally tends to add.

I personally like the concept of "clean" in mastering compressors because it automatically offers the widest range of operation. It offers something previously unavailable. A very strong box tone is typically synonymous with "one trick pony" or "sweet spot", a very restricted range, which probably makes more sense in a tracking compressor.

IMHO, 2018 the palette available to the mastering engineer is more colorful and flexible than ever, diversification is good.

Last edited by FabienTDR; 23rd March 2018 at 02:52 AM..
Old 22nd March 2018
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
If you like to associate the term "boxtone" with the magic of top of the line analogue processing, it totally makes sense. That's what Slate and several others attempt to do, and definitely achieve great things in that area.

If we describe "boxtone" as a predictable audible behavior, I'd definitely say that "pure" digital algorithms also have a tendency to move sound in a way or another, not unlike analogue boxes do.

They do it differently, though. Analogue gear primarily shows great variance in nonlinear behavior, or in simple terms, shows very deep and delicate variance of saturation effects. Most design effort goes into fighting and controlling the inherent nonlinearities.

Digital concepts on the other hand primarily differ in the way they try to fulfill laws of the sampling theorem (antialiasing, quantization, nyquit warping). Here, most effort goes into controlling these digital specific side-effects.

I totally understand that this type of variance is literally boring when compared to analogue. I definitely can hear aliasing loud and clear, discontinuities in the audio path, linear interpolation or warping effects. I hear badly aliased control paths in many dynamics processors. But these mistakes literally shaped the way dubstep or drum & bass "is expected to sound", so you can't call it wrong either. However, it isn't exactly exciting, and doesn't impose the "3D" subtle and delicate analogue saturation naturally tends to add.

I personally like the concept of "clean" in mastering compressors because it automatically offers the widest range of operation. A very strong box tone is typically synonymous with "one trick pony" or "sweet spot", a very restricted range, which probably makes more sense in a tracking compressor.

IMHO, 2018 the palette available to the mastering engineer is more colorful and flexible than ever, diversification is good.
very well explained, thank you!
Old 23rd March 2018
  #282
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I've had Kotelnikov for a few years but didn't Grock it until this week.

Like many others, I've been demoing the new Softube Weiss DS1, which is quite amazing. But at $500, it's way too much for my budget. So I decided to see if anything else could match the DS1 magic. Reading all the posts on the Weiss threads, I kept hearing about DMG Essence and Kotelnikov, so I demoed Essence and broke out the free Kotelnikov to see what I could do with them.

Well, I have to say I'm completely blown away. I bought Essence and Kotelnikov GE and I'm not feeling I'm missing anything without the Weiss DS1. I got both Essence and KGE to sound very close to the DS1, especially the KGE. Almost indistinguishable, and certainly nowhere near enough to justify spending $500 to get a subtle difference.

My tests have been using these comps in parallel mode, but with very transparent settings, ie: not intentionally crushing it. That in itself has been a new revelation for me, so it's been a win/win/win situation for me.

Reading these threads has also revealed that Fabien had the Weiss and other high end units in mind while developing Kotelnikov, so it makes sense that it could get so close. Plus, Bob Katz was involved with developing the Weiss DS1 and Essence, and he has sold his Weiss DS1 as a result. What does that tell you?

So I'm very happy and my mixes and masters have improved by a nice noticeable margin from all of this. Gotta love technology today and the new innovations from developers like Fabien and DMG, etc. We are spoiled with an embarrassment of riches/tools.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #283
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Fabien could you say the ying yang add a box tone?

well i need to experiment more with it but it seems it can bring that little something , enhancing .

it would be great if you make a coloring plugin , i mean something that keep all the details and enhance , something that can be very subbtle if needed , with setting for crafting transients , the mids the high end ect...

or a tdr transient plugin would be great also , there is big room for improvment here too
Old 23rd March 2018
  #284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Abstract View Post
Fabien could you say the ying yang add a box tone?
Yes, definitely.

Compressor boxtone can essentially be separated into three parts:

A. Imperfections of the sidechain and dynamic amp/resistor controlling the gain. Examples for these would be vactrols showing extremely nonlinear and history dependent transfer curves, or voltage controlled FET showing GR dependent effects on the signal bandwidth (low GR is very wideband, high GR becomes more "mid" focused). Stuff like that.

B. Side-effects introduced by the static amplification technology in use. Think mic preamp, these types of effects.

C. The physical side-effects of audio compression (LF gets slightly saturated, HF slightly overcompressed). This is boring of course, it's simply given.

Analogue compression always comes with a specific A and B. While B definitely takes the most obvious part. Both interact somewhat (or consist of only one element), depending on the technical approach.


Yin Yang purely affects A. Typically, you want a compressor to track the positive polarity in exactly the same way negative polarity is tracked. Yin and Yang relax this symmetry for LF and HF respectively. At 0GR, there is no effect. But the higher the GR, the more asymmetry will be provoked. The result is a GR dependent creation of mostly even ordered partials.

I didn't implement B. back then, due to a lack of experience in this area. But it's definitely envisioned to add flexible options for B. I'm thinking about allowing the operator to switch through a collection of amplification (multiplication) technologies: Linear, Class A tube, Class B tube, FET, etc, while still maintaining the full operational range for the compressor.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Abstract View Post
it would be great if you make a coloring plugin , i mean something that keep all the details and enhance , something that can be very subbtle if needed , with setting for crafting transients , the mids the high end ect...

or a tdr transient plugin would be great also , there is big room for improvment here too
The next SlickEQ M update will introduce new LF and HF exciters as a start. Not unlike the Aphex/BBE stuff, but for hi-fi aware grown ups!

A transient designer, maybe one that also works well on a mix is an exciting challenge. Definitely on the map!

Last edited by FabienTDR; 24th March 2018 at 02:24 AM..
Old 23rd March 2018
  #285
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thanks fabien, enjoying your explanations in many of your posts.

Lf and hf exciters with Slickeq M is great news !!! can't wait to try this

About transient designer i was thinking to one that work well on a mix yes , designed for this, a tool to craft transients with many settings
Old 23rd March 2018
  #286
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

That's bedroom talk, Fabien! Looking forward to both the exciters and the transient adventure!
Old 24th March 2018
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Abstract View Post
it s in the overall sound caractere ,the transients don't snap /grab but it tends to flatten /smooth them the more it compress and the more it get wooly

this thing happen on many compressor, i think it may be just the compression curve i don t know..or the caractere , for a example dc8c2 as well is a bit similar in that aspect, even if it s possible to get some snap, the transient is still more smoothed/ rounded than the uncompressed sound, i think it's why these compressors sound smooth / never agressive but i find it s not transparent.

it doesn t happen as much on the tdr feedback compressor 2 , the transient action can sound better to me depending the sound after, it depends what you are looking for but it s more transparent on the transient and compression action. (or maybe it s just about the settings? the Ge use a lookahead ? )
when using the GE you should definlety also try the feedback compressor 2, it s a forgoten gem
Old 27th March 2018
  #288
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post

The next SlickEQ M update will introduce new LF and HF exciters as a start. Not unlike the Aphex/BBE stuff, but for hi-fi aware grown ups!

A transient designer, maybe one that also works well on a mix is an exciting challenge. Definitely on the map!
I recently have become aware of your Slick EQ M and am interested in this EQ. Can't wait to try it out as well as the updated exciters that will be added.
Old 18th December 2018
  #289
Gear Head
 

I'm late to the party but I tried this earlier this evening and it was perfect for adding that extra bit of smoothing to an already balanced group of tracks via 1db GR on the mix bus using "Mastering - Warm" as a starting point.

I swapped it in and out with MJUC (meter barely moving), and it was an interesting comparison to hear that more colored, vintage sound vs the TDR, which was virtually invisible until I bypassed it (but in a good way).

Between the two I think I have my bases covered.
Old 18th December 2018
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggysane View Post
Between the two I think I have my bases covered.
This is Gearslutz.
You can't possibly be happy with just 2 compressors
Old 18th December 2018
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatworld View Post
This is Gearslutz.
You can't possibly be happy with just 2 compressors
Lol...just for stereo and mix/master bus duties. I have a few more for individual tracks and specialties, of course.

But that said...I have scaled down to maybe 4 that can handle just about everything.

(MJUC, BX Opto, Softube FET, Softube Tape for tape compression, and now TDR K for the transparent digital approach.

...and Acustica Tan if I'm hankering for a very specific VCA sound.)

Edit: I will also mention that Fabfilter C2 is one of those ones that can do everything in theory, but somehow I never got the same sound/feeling as I do having an Opto for opto duties, a Vari-Mu for color, etc.

Last edited by ziggysane; 18th December 2018 at 04:04 AM..
Old 18th December 2018
  #292
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Hermetech Mastering's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I use Koitelinikov and MJUC as my only digital compressors, been that way for a long time now.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #293
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DrAudioBot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggysane View Post
I'm late to the party but I tried this earlier this evening and it was perfect for adding that extra bit of smoothing to an already balanced group of tracks via 1db GR on the mix bus using "Mastering - Warm" as a starting point.

I swapped it in and out with MJUC (meter barely moving), and it was an interesting comparison to hear that more colored, vintage sound vs the TDR, which was virtually invisible until I bypassed it (but in a good way).

Between the two I think I have my bases covered.
Also my two main compressors for mastering ITB.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggysane View Post
Lol...just for stereo and mix/master bus duties. I have a few more for individual tracks and specialties, of course.

But that said...I have scaled down to maybe 4 that can handle just about everything.

(MJUC, BX Opto, Softube FET, Softube Tape for tape compression, and now TDR K for the transparent digital approach.

...and Acustica Tan if I'm hankering for a very specific VCA sound.)

Edit: I will also mention that Fabfilter C2 is one of those ones that can do everything in theory, but somehow I never got the same sound/feeling as I do having an Opto for opto duties, a Vari-Mu for color, etc.

Please note AA has a new free offering in Ceil that can join Tan...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #295
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ray View Post
Please note AA has a new free offering in Ceil that can join Tan...
I missed the notice on that one. Thanks for the heads up!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #296
adl
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Version 1.5.2 has been released, not sure if anyone cares, but i thought a give it a heads up:

Quote:
1.5.2 Maintenance update

# Fixed disfunctional EXTERNAL SC in certain hosts
# Small changes to mouse settings window
# New "Set quality for all instances" function (quality menu)

Am a bit late to the Kotelnikov fanclub, but this is really doing an amazing job!
I use it on electronic music (Techno/Trap) doing around 1,5dB of compression before sending it to the UAD SSL Buscomp for further snap and a bit more colour.
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