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Pono = Full Employment for Mastering Engineers? Digital Converters
Old 2nd April 2014
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
And I think Pono is an example of socialism, not capitalism (a good thing IMO.) 16/44 and iTunes were created by corporations to gives us "good enough" quality according to them, and portable enough to make them lots of money.

Pono was created by a music legend and funded by like-minded members of the public and was created to give us a higher quality that the market for is probably small.
Wow, they have really got you! Hook, line and sinker!
Old 2nd April 2014
  #152
Jtt
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You know, ol' Neil's ears have been subject to fairly loud (to put it mildly) working conditions for over 40 years. I wouldn't put money on his hearing even going past 10k.

Hearing damage brings everything into that nice warm analog range--if you can ignore the tinnitus.

Jtt
Old 2nd April 2014
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
Wow, they have really got you! Hook, line and sinker!
Um, yeah, they "got" me. What? Do you own a car? LOL, that company really got you!
Old 3rd April 2014
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
And I think Pono is an example of socialism, not capitalism (a good thing IMO.)

hmm dangerous analogy.

So who are they stealing the music from in order to give to lower class? Do you know civilization history? Selling music on this scale is purely for revenue generation.. Don't kid your self.. What they are doing is going to be similar to most of the competition when it comes to selling the audio product.


Not my intention to create censure here by criticizing a political reference.. End of the day we will judge this company by its future actions, not the promises in the attention grab phase.
Old 3rd April 2014
  #155
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ok let's say it's a nice blend of capitalism and socialism, i.e. how the world works.
Old 17th May 2014
  #156
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCIQedsYsqQ&app=desktop

Back catalog - access to flat master transfers, no remastering 25:35-26:40

New releases - subject to "recommended recording/mastering techniques" 50:10-50:55

(thanks to CarmenC for the link).

Last edited by walter88; 17th May 2014 at 11:03 PM.. Reason: changed wording
Old 18th May 2014
  #157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulamahri View Post
End of the day we will judge this company by its future actions, not the promises in the attention grab phase.
That's the really funny part IMHO. Pono is purely based on hype and promises! this is more speculation than any bank can offer. It's a pure casino without anything to win!

Too often I've seen "successful" kickstarter compains being unable to properly produce and deliver the products. This happened to me at least a dozen times! (Albums, games, vinyls, films, etc) This is particularly probable as soon musicians are involved, seriously.

People underestimate the complexity and true costs of developing, producing, shipping and supporting real products! Most musicians are horrible engineers and managers, really. The absolute worst one could find to do the job!

I do not believe in Niel Young's team. To me, they do not look competent or prepared enough. 6 Million or even 10 is a joke for a hardware project aiming at the end-consumer. This doesn't even cover the most basic PR costs needed to reach the crowds outside the (really minimal) high end market. Yes, I'd guess they'll need at least 6 million just to get "known".

Developing or adapting machines (or machine parts) to produce the toblerone case at a more or less profitable unit price easily costs 2-3 millions. Not to mention storage, assembling and packaging. And without even mentioning things such as "state of the art" circuit boards (= expensive parts and storage costs, hilarious QA costs) and other promises.

Early after my studies, I worked for a company producing bicycle helmets. We had to sell at least 500.000 (!) units just to pay-off the development costs of the machine producing these helmets, it costed 35 million $ and took 2 years to develop the machine! Simple bicycle helmets! Now imagine what the production of high-tech hardware costs! This whole discussion is a joke imo.

I am seriously bored from these highly speculative enterprises/"businesses" ran by naive first time "fabricants" without any experience int he field. I think they should start with facts (a small but real product), instead of empty, and very unlikely promises. Again, every bank is more morale and solidity than these kickstarter speculants.
Old 18th May 2014
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
Early after my studies, I worked for a company producing bicycle helmets. We had to sell at least 500.000 (!) units just to pay-off the development costs of the machine producing these helmets, it costed 35 million $ and took 2 years to develop the machine! Simple bicycle helmets! Now imagine what the production of high-tech hardware costs! This whole discussion is a joke imo.
The bicycle helmet probably required precise, and unique, techniques. People's lives depend on a complex shape, foams having specific densities, rigid elements certain strengths, adhesions being correct, etc etc.

Pono on the other hand, is, when it comes down to it, a circuit board in a case, like many other circuit boards in cases (phones, mp3 players, etc.)

There are plenty of companies that will build it for you, as a service, no need to build a factory or buy specialized equipment, and the setup costs would be far lower than you seem to be imagining, for the PCB it's a case of inputing the design into a computer, and the assembly robots will take care of the rest. As for the case, machining patterns for something like this used to cost in the tens of thousands (not hundreds), but these days with 3d printing technology I would think even that has dropped in price.
Old 18th May 2014
  #159
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walter88 View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCIQedsYsqQ&app=desktop

Back catalog - access to flat master transfers, no remastering 25:35-26:40

New releases - subject to "recommended recording/mastering techniques" 50:10-50:55

(thanks to CarmenC for the link).
Great link, thanks - we're finally get some info about the questions I started this thread for. Tune in to 51:00 - 51:30 - he mentions that, like I was hoping and some people on this thread said would never happen, they will be re-transferring analog masters with the latest hi-res converters (and not messing them up with added compression/eq.) Can't wait!
Old 18th May 2014
  #160
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
...Pono is purely based on hype and promises!..
Have you heard it?
Old 18th May 2014
  #161
Jon,

of course, there are ways to do all this without building your own production lines, but this will certainly not produce anything "high end", at least not at a realistic price. Quality control becomes insanely difficult with out-sourcing. That's why most high end companies avoid it wherever possible.

All this doesn't even include the enormous investments required to develop and run the IT infrastructure structure alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Have you heard it?
Lol, no. And that's the whole point. All I can see is hype and lots of cash spent into ad campaigns.
Old 18th May 2014
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
Jon,

of course, there are ways to do all this without building your own production lines, but this will certainly not produce anything "high end", at least not at a realistic price. Quality control becomes insanely difficult with out-sourcing. That's why most high end companies avoid it wherever possible.
I think you may be giving the pono player credit it doesn't deserve, since I don't really see how itr is any more high end, in terms of manufacturing complexity and quality, that an iPod.

As I said, it's a circuit board in a box, it's going to be using off the shelf components, the only quality control really needed is to make sure the solder connections are good, and there are many far eastern companies that have that sorted.

Seriously, I doubt very much they have any intention of setting up their own factory for this thing, Apple don't.
Old 18th May 2014
  #163
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Kickstarter is obviously just being used as a vehicle for publicity and advance player sales.

Neil's last venture into high end audio was Pacific Microsonics whose HDCD converters are still in daily use at many of the world's top mastering facilities. He is friends with many of the top audio designers in the field. I wouldn't be too hasty writing off what he is doing as just being hype.
Old 19th May 2014
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Kickstarter is obviously just being used as a vehicle for publicity and advance player sales.

Neil's last venture into high end audio was Pacific Microsonics whose HDCD converters are still in daily use at many of the world's top mastering facilities. He is friends with many of the top audio designers in the field. I wouldn't be too hasty writing off what he is doing as just being hype.
Well, what are we supposed to think, when Neil says things like this:

Quote:
In the studio, with your brand new creations, high resolution is a great option. Resolutions are all different in their depths and textures. These can be used, and mixed together. A hook can be recorded in a higher resolution than the track it sits on, further setting it apart in your creation. So can a vocal. Resolution is a new tool for you to use.
Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...5f42525255efef

Does that sound like solid audio engineering knowledge, or pure hype?
Old 19th May 2014
  #165
IMO what you've quoted makes more sense in context:
Quote:
...If you are a new artist, always released on MP3s and CDs, then your horizon has just been radically expanded. You can now record in whatever resolution you choose and your fans will hear the same quality you heard in the studio. You no longer have to lose part of your sound when it goes to the people. You probably know what I mean, having heard your creation when you mixed it, feeling that rush, only to be let down by the end product, the product your audience has had to accept. You probably know it was better when you first heard it than what they got. That is over. You are no longer limited by a format. Now your audience can hear what you hear.

In the studio, with your brand new creations, high resolution is a great option. Resolutions are all different in their depths and textures. These can be used, and mixed together. A hook can be recorded in a higher resolution than the track it sits on, further setting it apart in your creation. So can a vocal. Resolution is a new tool for you to use. As long as you mix in the highest resolution found in your creation, or higher, everything will be captured. Especially, real echo and acoustic instruments, like drums, benefit from higher resolutions. Don’t take anyone’s word for this. Listen for yourself. Make your own decision. It’s an artistic right you have...
Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...5f42525255efef
Old 19th May 2014
  #166
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

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I didn't say Neil has solid audio engineering knowledge himself but he does have access to some of the top people who do which is why I wouldn't assume that it's entirely smoke and mirrors.
Old 19th May 2014
  #167
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It would be perfectly valid to use an 8-bit drum machine and 16-bit instruments and record a vocal in 24-bit. For some people it could make sense to record vocals or something at super-high resolution. He's just saying it's an option in your toolkit.
Old 19th May 2014
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
It would be perfectly valid to use an 8-bit drum machine and 16-bit instruments and record a vocal in 24-bit. For some people it could make sense to record vocals or something at super-high resolution. He's just saying it's an option in your toolkit.
What's at issue here isn't something like using an 8-bit drum sample for effect. The idea of mixing sampling frequencies for "musical effect" becomes useless once you're above Nyquist. All you're hearing at that point between a vocal recorded at 192kHz and a backing track at 96kHz is analog circuitry differences between converters. That's what's stupid and wasteful about the idea. He's grasping at straws to give someone a reason to record and mix every project at 192kHz, justifying the Pono's maximum resolution. Brilliant!

Does anyone here actually think that in a finished mix, you'd be able to hear that the vocals were recorded at 192k and the backing tracks were at 96k? Or even 48k?

And of course if you buy this idea, and if you also buy the idea that we should be recording, mixing, and mastering at a higher resolution than the end-user format, then we should all be working on the production side in 384kHz, right? Oddly, that's something nobody every gets around to discussing when it comes to Pono.

At the end of the day, I don't want the artists I work with asking for this approach. It's wasteful not only of disk space and bandwidth, but also CPU and available plugin resources. On a page labeled "A Message to Artists", I think it's bad advice. I don't think he's going to get much support for this idea in the independent recording community either, considering the additional resources consumed for no good reason.
Old 19th May 2014
  #169
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96k sounds better than 44k despite Nyquist theories, so I think yes, 192k probably sounds even a tiny bit better than 96k. Different recording/mixing budgets/scenarios call for different choices, but if you give me a choice between 96k and 192k Neil Young, I'd rather hear him at 192.
Old 19th May 2014
  #170
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Last nite I watched the laughable appearance of Neil on the tonight show. He was there promoting a laughable vinyl record booth fronted by the ridiculous Jack White. The sound was shod and Neil went along with this charade. I like Neil but was disappointed by him supporting this shod after his (nonsense) words about Pono.
Old 19th May 2014
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Last nite I watched the laughable appearance of Neil on the tonight show. He was there promoting a laughable vinyl record booth fronted by the ridiculous Jack White. The sound was shod and Neil went along with this charade. I like Neil but was disappointed by him supporting this shod after his (nonsense) words about Pono.
How dare he have fun?! Doesn't he know music is supposed to be a grim, serious task?!
Old 19th May 2014
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
After I left Motown I got involved in doing live radio music broadcasts with just a pair of U67s and a pair of RCA 44BXs. No eq, RCA mono console, no limiters, no headphones. It turns out that when people are playing to an acoustical balance, they manage the dynamics superbly just to hear each other and none of that stuff is needed.

A HUGE lesson here... Read that ten times. Thanks Bob!
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