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Pono = Full Employment for Mastering Engineers? Digital Converters
Old 13th March 2014
  #91
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More info about Ayre's contribution to the PonoPlayer.

1) Ayre's custom designed and implemented digital filter. It is minimum phase, with no unnatural (digital sounding) pre-ringing. All sounds made always have reflections and/or echoes after the initial sound. There is no sound in nature that has any echo or reflection before the sound, which is what conventional linear-phase digital filters do. This is one reason that digital sound has a reputation for sounding "unnatural".

2) All circuitry is zero-feedback. Feedback can only correct an error after it has occurred, which means that it can never correct for all errors. By using proprietary ultra linear circuitry with wide bandwidth and low output impedance, there is no need for unnatural sounding feedback.

3) The DAC chip used is the ESS ES9018, widely recognized in the audio and engineering community as the best sounding DAC chip available today.

4) The output buffer used to drive the headphones is fully discrete so that all individual parameters and circuit values and parts quality can be fully optimized for the absolute finest sound quality. The output impedance is very low so that the Pono Player will deliver perfectly flat frequency response to any headphone made.
Old 13th March 2014
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
I really like some Ninja Tune/Warp artists like Amon Tobin, but generally speaking, electronic music is not really part of the record industry. Almost no one buys it. It's more for DJs to spin for people to dance and take drugs to. Sales of electronic music are about equal to sales of polka music or comedy albums. Rock and roll is by far the biggest genre of music sales.
Who mentioned electronic music anyway?

Just check today's itunes US charts. These represent SALES:

Happy (From "Despicable Me 2")
Pharrell Williams

All of Me
John Legend

Dark Horse (feat. Juicy J)
Katy Perry

The Man
Aloe Blacc

#SELFIE
The Chainsmokers

Let It Go
Idina Menzel

Pompeii
Bastille

Best Day of My Life
American Authors

Team
Lorde

Turn Down For What
DJ Snake & Lil Jon




Lol, where's the rock'n'roll? Electronic music and soul. Exactly what Ninja-Tune/Warp/Stones Throw does, and exactly what beatport, boomkat, juno and several other specialized shops sell (on top of itunes). Exactly what all better clubs are playing. Oh now don't try to tell me Radiohead is into rock'n'roll..

Now, how does that fit with the charts?! (no matter whether you check itunes or spotify, rock'n'roll or even classic rock is becoming a rarity)

The only difference between classic rock and the modern world is that the rock scene grew with (and strongly influenced) the traditional music business processes. Modern music genres and modern distributions aren't represented at all at Nielsen Soundscan, they are truly independent (yes!). I know first hand that most radio stations, even bbc radio one don't even report airplay for modern music, they only do for "classic" pop rock recordings. Specialized shops don't report at all.

Also, where are the hundreds of specialized rock shops to handle the massive demand you are hallucinating? In cities? I only see soul, house, techno and dubstep stores. On the web? Never heard of such. Ok, maybe tons of rock clubs are opening? ehh.. no, it doesn't look like that either...

I'm not trying to force a stupid genre debate, but the arguments above are real.

Sorry for the off topic
Old 13th March 2014
  #93
Again, not to go off topic, but what do you refer to when you say the BBC don't "report airplay for modern music"? In the UK the charts have nothing to do with radio and are based on sales only (although I believe YouTube and maybe Spotify are due to be counted soon).

The BBC certainly do report all radio plays to the PRS for accurate distribution of performance royalties.
Old 13th March 2014
  #94
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Um, please refer to the data I posted showing how rock sales massively outnumber other genres. I guess you think there is some conspiracy against electronic music, but sorry, no, people just aren't that interested in buying it.
Old 14th March 2014
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foldedpath View Post
Okay, I haven't been following this (obviously), so if it's just a high-res FLAC file then that's cool.

How are the labels handling that, though? Are they actually releasing non-DRM'd files of their back catalogs in 192/24? How does that business plan work? Or is this like early Sony MiniDisk, where there isn't a way to move the files off the Pono player in full resolution?
The Pono players accept 64GB flash cards...
Old 14th March 2014
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
Sure, I do a lot of my listening to FLACs, but I'm not sure I would call them full res. I have a feeling in a few years when we look back at 16/44.1, we'll feel like we'd been cheated.
Huh, I felt cheated right away. When CDs came out I believed the hype, went out and replaced a lot of my scratched up soul and funk LPs with CDs. The early CDs sounded like ****.
Old 14th March 2014
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playon View Post
Huh, I felt cheated right away. When CDs came out I believed the hype, went out and replaced a lot of my scratched up soul and funk LPs with CDs. The early CDs sounded like ****.

Timing is everything. Early A-D converters weren't up to par, etc.

If those early CDs were reissued from master tape - FLAT - on todays A-Ds to 24bit/96 masters, they'd really shine. Nothing at all wrong with 16/44 as a consumer transport.

As I said before... SISO!
Old 14th March 2014
  #98
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Reminds me. Few weeks ago I came across a used copy of peter Gabriel's Security cd manufactured 1982!

The cd sounds better than most early digital transfers from back then.. has great dynamics, But slightly on the dark side.. could have more clarity.. Would be amazing to hear the mix respectfully transferred directly today with modern converters.. All of the remasters of these songs that I know of have been compressed..
Old 14th March 2014
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulamahri View Post
All of the remasters of these songs that I know of have been compressed..
Exactly my point!!!! Y'feelin me now? lol
Old 14th March 2014
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_K_Man View Post
Exactly my point!!!! Y'feelin me now? lol


I love dynamic mixes, No revelation there.. you have read this from me numerous times.. But as a professional I run a representative service.. Witch doesn't bother me one bit.. But you knew I was going to say this..
Old 14th March 2014
  #101
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I have not read this thread in full..

Its great a new high rez portable player will be available.. But the playback system is the problem.. see what most consumers are using and how they set it up?
Old 15th March 2014
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulamahri View Post
I love dynamic mixes, No revelation there.. you have read this from me numerous times.. But as a professional I run a representative service.. Witch doesn't bother me one bit.. But you knew I was going to say this..

You provide the service, I'll take care of educating consumers to be better listeners and to demand un-squashed music from the labels.
Old 15th March 2014
  #103
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I have read the whole thread here. It is filled with pure speculation by GS guessers and pretenders. Let's instead base our discussion on how the system sounds, don't you think?

Let's wait until October when the player comes out to praise it or diss it.

I side with Neil and backed the project.
Old 15th March 2014
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
The biggest record label worldwide, "Bandcamp" offers his-res FLAC shopping since years.
I'm not going to say who, but I've seen albums I've worked on available on Bandcamp as FLAC as one of the options to purchase, but all the clients have asked for are DDP and 16/44.1 (no interest in the higher resolution 24/48 masters I've captured through my chain).

This makes me wonder if Bandcamp simply takes 16/44.1 files and creates FLAC and all the other "high resolution" options. Hopefully there will be some sort of QC for Pono and do things similar to what HDTracks has been doing for a while now.
Old 15th March 2014
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I have read the whole thread here. It is filled with pure speculation by GS guessers and pretenders. Let's instead base our discussion on how the system sounds, don't you think?

Let's wait until October when the player comes out to praise it or diss it.

I side with Neil and backed the project.
Plush, this is an honest question, and I've learned a great deal from your posts here on GS over the years, so this is asked with respect for your experience and contributions here.

If this thing takes off, does that mean you're going to start doing your orchestral recordings in 192kHz? Or are you already doing that?

If you're not already recording at 192kHz, is this just something we're supposed to do, to "support the new distribution format", even though many of us (including me) might feel it's ridiculous on a technical level?

Again, this is a serious question, not meant to be confrontational.
Old 15th March 2014
  #106
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Its a good question considering what most people use for play back..
Old 15th March 2014
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco View Post
This makes me wonder if Bandcamp simply takes 16/44.1 files and creates FLAC and all the other "high resolution" options. Hopefully there will be some sort of QC for Pono and do things similar to what HDTracks has been doing for a while now.
Bandcamp creates all the versions from the original lossless versions you submit. So if you submit 24/192 files, that's what the lossless FLAC and WAV downloads will be, and what the mp3 versions will be encoded from.
Old 15th March 2014
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foldedpath View Post
Plush, this is an honest question, and I've learned a great deal from your posts here on GS over the years, so this is asked with respect for your experience and contributions here.

If this thing takes off, does that mean you're going to start doing your orchestral recordings in 192kHz? Or are you already doing that?

If you're not already recording at 192kHz, is this just something we're supposed to do, to "support the new distribution format", even though many of us (including me) might feel it's ridiculous on a technical level?

Again, this is a serious question, not meant to be confrontational.
Thank you for asking. I got a dCS 904 converter in 1995 and began recording 96 kHz. material then using the AES 2-wire method on a Nagra D. Then later recording in 192.

The classical business that I'm in is different from many studios in that classical recording is often where you see tech boundaries being pushed first.

I don't record everything at 192 but certainly everything is recorded at 96kHz. for many years here.

I am using microphones that record up to 100kHz. and I am recording on preamps and recorders that will capture very wide bandwidth.

In a recent conversation last month with Rupert Neve, he told me his opinion that we need to record to at least 80kHz. I agree with him and so I pursue special ways of doing that.

Should the regular studio record the same ways that I do? Not necessarily. However, I do think that they should be recording at 24/96 rate. It just makes a better master.
Old 15th March 2014
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Thank you for asking. I got a dCS 904 converter in 1995 and began recording 96 kHz. material then using the AES 2-wire method on a Nagra D. Then later recording in 192.

The classical business that I'm in is different from many studios in that classical recording is often where you see tech boundaries being pushed first.

I don't record everything at 192 but certainly everything is recorded at 96kHz. for many years here.

I am using microphones that record up to 100kHz. and I am recording on preamps and recorders that will capture very wide bandwidth.

In a recent conversation last month with Rupert Neve, he told me his opinion that we need to record to at least 80kHz. I agree with him and so I pursue special ways of doing that.

Should the regular studio record the same ways that I do? Not necessarily. However, I do think that they should be recording at 24/96 rate. It just makes a better master.

In a rece
I've seen an interview of Rupert and while he's done some great analog circuits, he has a very poor understanding of digital audio. I'm not saying that you shouldn't record at 96, because some converters sound better at 96 than at 44.1.
Old 16th March 2014
  #110
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Jetam, you're bringing up other issues that have nothing to do with what I wrote.

In my post above, I was talking about frequency response in analog audio reproduction. I am arguing for recording and playing back up to 80kHz. This requires special mics, special mic amps, special recording formats etc.

Then the knowledgeable engineer's job is to choose digital equipment that will fulfill the desired analog audio frequency response requirement.

Just get rid of your commentary that Mr. Neve does not understand what he is talking about. He knows exactly what he is talking about and he puts his words in to the designs from Rupert Neve Designs (Texas).
Old 16th March 2014
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
As Neil Young says, Steve Jobs told him he only listened to vinyl, not that digital crap.
as much as I respect Neil Young as a really great musician and as I admire Steve Jobs as a really great marketing visioneer ... they are a musician and a marketing guy.

everything that is said about Pono is ... sorry, folks ... complete bull****. because a musician and a marketing guy are talking far away off their topics, they admittedly understand a lot of.

the technical skills and the technical knowledge of Neil Young are ... how should I say ... very limited. and that is nice talk ... because I like NY very, very much. so what if he would talk about rocket science? no one would listen. because he is a musician doent mean he understands a little bit of the technology.

the same goes fo SJ. SJ talking about vinyl vs. digital? ok, he is a delusional boring old fart whining about the good old times when the covers were much bigger and much better. thats it, what was better about vinyl. the covers. nothing more. and SJ isnt that technically knowledgeable guy ... HE IS (was) THE MARKETING GUY!!! so who cares what SJ thinks about vinyl? his taste in wine matters the same: nothing.

and you all know that. taht it is about marketing some bs to voodoo-believing people whining about the good old whatever ...

you all know how to read technical specs - you say so at least. so read the specs about vinyl and compare it to the specs of a 16bit/44.1khz audio-CD.

so what? you like vinyl more? ok, you are religiously undermined and imun to facts.

people that think so have the least authority in the field of audio for me. as NY and SJ. delusional old boring farts. like me. but I can read specs and I can hear (at least more than you Pono-is-a-good-thing-thinker) bias free.

so leave the world alone with this new product from the company Snake Oil Inc.

Pono is not working voodoo.

but they will find dumb people that pay that price for it and feel better. so may it be. those who know are laughing and palmfacing, the others feel better. to each his own (song by Crosby, Stills, Nash & YOUNG :-)))
Old 16th March 2014
  #112
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Does anyone really expect the limited number of Pono sales (currently ~10k) to translate into a mass re-release of music into higher resolution formats? Hundreds of millions would have to be out there for most record labels/artists to even begin to consider it…and even then.


The BIGGEST problem I have with music quality today is not based on the D/A of the playback system or the sample resolution of the music itself, but the garbage and careless recording, mixing and/or mastering decisions being made to compete with loudness wars and to stay within drastically reduced budgets for the vast majority of artists out there. CDs or even god forbid high bitrate MP3s can sound pretty good with current consumer devices all things considered, the music released just sounds like **** these days more often than not. Putting for example any number of releases…a recent one that I was particularly disappointed by sound quality-wise was Imagine Dragon's Night Visions... on Pono is still going to sound like crap, which is unfortunate.


Don't get me wrong, I am all for higher resolution music…why not? I'm not exactly convinced that the average consumer can tell a difference or cares (whichever you prefer), but that is not my argument. A new $300-400 file player and charging double for higher resolution music downloads however is NOT the solution.
Old 16th March 2014
  #113
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Inside Neil Young's Crowdfunded Quest To Fix Your Disastrous MP3 Situation

The mood in the hotel courtyard could hardly be more upbeat. For the mix of musicians and businessmen standing around in the Austin sun, a huge milestone just happened: $2 million raised on Kickstarter in just over 24 hours. It's good news for Neil Young and the team behind his Pono digital music player. But their work is far from finished.

After three years of preparation, Young formally announced Pono during his keynote address at South By Southwest on Tuesday. The project aims to bring high-resolution digital music to the masses via an iTunes-like storefront and a triangular-shaped device for music storage and playback. Both products will ship in the fall.

Shortly after Young's keynote, the fledgling company went live on Kickstarter and more than doubled its $800,000 funding goal in less than one day. Sitting on a sofa outside his hotel room, Young is at once both elated and exhausted.


Neil Young in his Austin, TX hotel during SXSW
Why Pono Exists

"We've had some pretty intense days," says Young. "The team has been working really hard on the website and making decisions for Kickstarter. We're also hoping to get the technical areas absolutely buttoned up. But it's been good. We've managed to reach the goals we wanted to reach."

For the rock legend turned startup founder, this week's announcement marks the culmination of years of planning and building--turning an impassioned gripe into an actual company with a business plan and a physical product.

"With MP3s, you have less than 5% of the data that could be in that song if it was recorded at a higher resolution," says Young. "And it was probably recorded at a much higher resolution that what you got. You've now purchased the right to recognize the song. But that's about it. What you're missing is the music."

This is a drum Young has been beating for quite some time. In his much-publicized view, the convenience of digital music has come at the expense of sound quality. This is certainly true, technically speaking. For an album to be easily transferred over broadband and cellular networks, it needs to be crunched down to a manageable file size, inevitably losing some detail. At 320kbps, the highest quality tracks available through Spotify are still only 22% of the resolution of a compact disc. The AAC compression standard, considered an improvement over MP3s, is still just that--a compressed audio file. While the sound quality status quo has come a long way since the days of Napster, Young and purists like him are far from satisfied.

Still, today's popular formats are clearly sufficient enough for the millions of music fans who purchase songs from iTunes and stream from services like Spotify. For audiophiles, lossless high-quality formats have long scratched the itch MP3s couldn't. What Young and his team hope to do is take high-res audio up a notch and then market it to a crowd beyond the audio codec nerds.

"Things ebb and flow between convenience and quality," says Pono CEO John Hamm, wielding a yellow prototype of the $400 device. "The laws of physics that kept us from quality in the early 2000s--bandwidth, capacity, memory, storage--we've solved those problems in the last 15 years. This is just another point on the convenience curve."

Hamm and his colleagues are quick to point out that they're not trying to start a format war. Nor are they getting into the streaming music subscription game. Instead, they want to offer consumers what Young repeatedly refers to as "freedom of choice." That is, the option to purchase music in a format that sounds as warm and high-fidelity as 180-gram vinyl, but with the convenience music fans have come to expect since Steve Jobs first held up Apple's little white gadget on stage in 2001.

To get superior sound, Hamm tells me that they "get the highest quality digital master possible" from the record labels. In many cases, that means they're getting an album at a higher quality than the CD version. But not always. The range of quality is "all over the place" but generally always better than the MP3s and streaming services. Whatever the purest available master happens to be is what they'll sell through the PonoMusic store.

The device itself is engineered to play back high-resolution audio, not unlike the bulkier home systems for which audio geeks pay top dollar. Built in conjunction with Ayre Acoustics, the player promises to recreate the original analog sound using state-of-the-art circuitry, and what the company says is the best digital audio converter (DAC) on the market.

Hamm declines to compare the hardware to the inner workings of Apple's iPod (about which he says he knows very little), but says that the Pono Player is the first device to include audiophile-grade engineering in a portable form factor.

At launch, the PonoMusic store will focus on selling albums rather than individual tracks like iTunes. Prices will vary depending on record label preferences, but on average they are expected to range from $15 to $24 per album. Once purchased, an album will download in lossless, DRM-free FLAC files. The player will support other filetypes like MP3, WAV, AIFF, ALAC and AAC as well.


Pono Music Player
What Pono Sounds Like

Outside Young's hotel room is a conglomeration of people who would rarely otherwise hang out. Members of the press, record executives, technologists, and budding rock stars mill about and make small talk. In the context of this private courtyard, Hamm and his colleagues are eager to let others give the Pono player a spin. The device, still in alpha, isn't yet polished enough to let the public give it a whirl. But these guys, Hamm is confident, will "get it." Especially the musicians.

Sure enough, after one of the young musicians puts on a pair of headphones, his face lights up.

"There it is!" Hamm shouts. "That's what I call the Pono face," referring to the expression made by most artists when they first hear the player. By now, dozens of other musicians have had a chance to listen to Pono--as evidenced by the star-studded promotional video posted to the project's Kickstarter page--and their reactions tend to be similar.

When you first listen to Pono, it's helpful to put on a familiar song. That way it's easier to pick up on the details you may not have heard before. The rhythmic tap of a tambourine. The subtle resonance of an acoustic guitar string between chords. It's these finer nuances that pop out, unencumbered by the digital compression. Even if they're audible on the MP3 version of the song, they're suddenly more noticeable. The details are crisp.

Picking these things out is also made easier by the fact that the mix of the song itself feels--at least in my brief testing--more spacious. Almost three-dimensional. Each instrument has more room to breathe. Some have commented that it sounds like you're standing in the recording studio with the musicians. That's a fair way to describe it.

For comparison's sake, I press pause on the Pono player in the middle of Neil Young's "Heart of Gold" and load up the same song on my iPhone, switching the headphones from jack to jack. Even at Spotify's "extreme" offline quality of 320kbps, the song suddenly feels one-dimensional. Instead of the finely separated mix, the instrumentation and vocals feel packed into a more finite space.

Here's the thing: The Spotify version doesn't sound bad. It's not like the early days of MP3s when the drums sounded warbly and certain tones would be notably absent from familiar songs. "Heart of Gold" on my iPhone sounds perfectly fine, as does the other music I download or stream at a high bit rate.

But Pono does sound different. It surfaces new things to the listener. As many have pointed out, the sound is "warm," not unlike the analog sound of high-quality vinyl. The results will undoubtedly vary from album to album and speaker to speaker, but on the whole it does sound fuller and more pure than the audio files we're used to.

"It's hard to take your vinyl on a trip to London," says Hamm. "So if you want the closest to the vinyl experience because you love something, it's like taking your 30 favorite records with you. Those weren't the ones you were listening to on Spotify."

It's worth noting that the majority of people who have heard Pono to date are musicians. It's no accident. Young and Hamm have opted to market this an "artist-driven movement." That's a smart strategy, since people who spend their days in recording studios are going to appreciate the nuance of what's different about Pono. It also helps to have rock stars enthusiastically praising the product you're trying to launch. But there's no money changing hands here. That perk is a natural by-product of who founded the company.

This also means that the product is virtually untested among non-musicians, so it's hard to gauge how wide its appeal might be until units start shipping in October.

Will It Succeed?

Pono isn't without its detractors. The people trying to get the project off the ground face a constant barrage of naysaying: High-bit rate MP3s are fine, thank you very much. Or as some have argued, the push for 24-bit, 192kHz audio north of CD quality is unnecessary because CDs are as good as it gets.

Whether or not there's a big market for high-resolution digital audio among the general population remains to be seen. But the early crowdfunding results are a promising sign for those involved.

"Kickstarter is a phenomenal marketing tool," says Young. "And it can be a great financing tool. With us, it's turned out to be both."

For these guys, taking the crowdfunding route allows them to drum up grassroots support among music fans--armed with celebrity endorsements--before ever asking a VC for money. It's something Young admits would have been a challenge in these early days.

"No one was interested in rescuing an art form as far as something to invest in," he says. "Whereas people are very interested in reducing an art form that makes daily life more fun for them."

At the end of the day, this is a passion project. It's something Young feels strongly about and he's banking on the notion that others will feel the same way. It's a much easier pitch to make to thousands of passionate music fans than it would be to a Silicon Valley VC firm. That can always come later, provided the launch goes as planned.

Like any fledgling company, Pono has had it challenges. Some early ideas about how to encode the audio had to be scrapped. Early design prototypes envisioned a device that would attach to your phone, a concept that was abandoned in favor of the three-sided device with its own touch screen.

And while they haven't said anything about it publicly, there's no such thing as a digital music startup for which licensing content is not an ongoing challenge. Those deals with labels will undoubtedly continue to be negotiated over the next few months as the engineers fine-tune the hardware and coders build out the storefront.

"The most challenging part has been keeping the company together while we have no money for months," says Young. "But it's a startup. People do that when they believe in something."

http://www.fastcolabs.com/3027720/ne...3-situation/?h
Old 16th March 2014
  #114
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
"The most challenging part has been keeping the company together while we have no money for months," says Young. "But it's a startup. People do that when they believe in something."

Inside Neil Young's Crowdfunded Quest To Fix Your Disastrous MP3 Situation ? Co.Labs ? code + community
don't get me wrong but even though i am interested in the outcome of this new player, i have hard to believe Neil Young run out of cash....

see when i do something i trully believe in i invest all my cash in...

leaving that comment aside, i hope the Pono will really help the industry.

PS: i am not a banker neither a software designer so i have no clue of the investment, but still...
Old 16th March 2014
  #115
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Gonna be fun to see my friends who don't know that they care about audio quality make the Pono face.
Old 16th March 2014
  #116
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Originally Posted by kslight View Post
Does anyone really expect the limited number of Pono sales (currently ~10k) to translate into a mass re-release of music into higher resolution formats? Hundreds of millions would have to be out there for most record labels/artists to even begin to consider it…and even then.
Sorry, but I don't understand where you get 10k. The Pono home page link for pre-orders (after signup) goes to the Kickstarter page, where they are at $3.8 Million. Most of that is the $400 "orders" for the signature players, most half sold out, some fully sold out. From what I can tell the "sales" are already well into the millions. Unless I'm missing something. The record labels are already asking for 96k. Now maybe they'll ask for 192k.

Last edited by walter88; 16th March 2014 at 10:37 PM.. Reason: added after signup
Old 16th March 2014
  #117
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Hermetech Mastering's Avatar
 

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I wonder if Neil Young would accept the challenge of an A/B/X test on his own player between an "HD" file and a 320 kbps MP3 version. Probably not, but I keep imagining it.
Old 16th March 2014
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kslight View Post
Does anyone really expect the limited number of Pono sales (currently ~10k) to translate into a mass re-release of music into higher resolution formats? Hundreds of millions would have to be out there for most record labels/artists to even begin to consider it…and even then.
Unless you mean 10,000 players, which re-reading I guess is what you meant. Yes you're right (my apologies...) and it doesn't sound like a lot, but it might be enough for them to start.
Old 16th March 2014
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walter88 View Post
Sorry, but I don't understand where you get 10k. The Pono home page link for pre-orders (after signup) goes to the Kickstarter page, where they are at $3.8 Million. Most of that is the $400 "orders" for the signature players, most half sold out, some fully sold out. From what I can tell the "sales" are already well into the millions. Unless I'm missing something. The record labels are already asking for 96k. Now maybe they'll ask for 192k.
I am talking units, not dollars…...

At the point of my post there were approximately 10,000 units sold.
Old 16th March 2014
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walter88 View Post
Unless you mean 10,000 players, which re-reading I guess is what you meant. Yes you're right (my apologies...) and it doesn't sound like a lot, but it might be enough for them to start.
Its not a lot, which is one of my points. How many consumers does the average band have to play their music to (across all media) in order to achieve a 10000 sales (which is actually a quite lot for non-arena playing signed acts these days, and at that point if they are lucky they may have broken even on the record)? More often than not, they are only going to appeal to a small fraction of the people that hear them.


So if there are 10k Pono owners, what percentage of those users will hear of the band. What percentage of that group will like the band. And how many Pono users will legally buy said music in higher res format. And how many Pono users will get burnt on buying higher res music when they realize that the problem isn't the resolution at all, its the crap sound of the music to begin with. If the average signed band only potentially sees opportunity to optimistically sell to .001% of Pono users, its not going to be seen as the worth any time, effort, or more importantly…expenses to release music properly for higher res formats (rather than a lazy conversion).
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