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Bob Katz declares the Loudness War won
Old 24th October 2013
  #121
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_K_Man View Post
Check the input gain(if adj. is avail on your kit).
well, the point is most the tunes in my genre are just to loud from the start. having the gain on one channel all the way down and fader half way and the other is normal... makes mixing kinda weird... i just make all my own stuff for the last few years so its not much issue anymore, but I come across a tune i like and this is almost always the case.
Old 25th October 2013
  #122
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
I find it strange that there is peak-limiting involved.
Look at Spotify, which has an always-on peak limiter. It processes ISPs for instance.

So it's reasonable to believe that iTunes Radio has one or will implement one, and I assume that's what Bob does.
Old 25th October 2013
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
Look at Spotify, which has an always-on peak limiter. It processes ISPs for instance.

So it's reasonable to believe that iTunes Radio has one or will implement one, and I assume that's what Bob does.
Thanks for telling us. Now I know what not to use!

As far as peak-limiting goes, wasn't the theme of last week's Loudness Wars at AES "Leave Those Peaks Alone"?? I hope Katz isn't going back on his own beliefs.
Old 26th October 2013
  #124
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On the basis that a lot of music is going to be dropped in level by Soundcheck, often music that will be 16bit PCM (from CD) and AAC. It might be worth checking for sonic degradation related to pushing the level of these compressed file files down without reference to fidelity changes. Would be a shame to counter a level consistency problem and compound compressed format fidelity problems.

It makes me wonder how manipulating the volume of mastered 256kbps AAC fares compared with 16 bit mastered PCM for example.

Edit : This is quite difficult to test for as you would have to manipulate the actual AAC file using the iTunes volume control and compensate using an actual analogue volume control.

Last edited by SASMastering; 28th October 2013 at 08:38 AM.. Reason: correction
Old 26th October 2013
  #125
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_K_Man View Post
Thanks for telling us. Now I know what not to use!

As far as peak-limiting goes, wasn't the theme of last week's Loudness Wars at AES "Leave Those Peaks Alone"?? I hope Katz isn't going back on his own beliefs.
I don't think he's going back on his beliefs. He was just pointing out that everyone should be aware and account for (and possibly make adjustment for) the possibility that their tracks might be peak limited if the peaks are that far above their normalized average level. I think it was just a warning from him to run your own tests. Apple is probably peak limiting for safety (as Bob implied), but I don't think many tracks are going to hit that peak limiter. Not from -16.5 LUFS.

Last edited by walter88; 26th October 2013 at 10:24 AM.. Reason: added I don't think many tracks are going to hit that peak limiter. not from -16.5 LUFS
Old 26th October 2013
  #126
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OT but worth mentioning: I noticed the page count of this thread is 5 when I'm logged off, but drops to 3 pages when I'm logged on.

???
Old 26th October 2013
  #127
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_K_Man View Post
OT but worth mentioning: I noticed the page count of this thread is 5 when I'm logged off, but drops to 3 pages when I'm logged on.

???
It's because of how many posts per page are set up in your account. When you're not logged on, the default is 30. Obviously you have more posts per page set up in your preferences so it re-paginates for that when you're logged in.

For example, I have it set up for 100 posts per page so when I'm logged in, this is actually 2 pages for me.

Regards,
Frank
Old 26th October 2013
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_K_Man View Post
I'm all for R128 and the -23LUFS business. I think that iTunes -16.5 standard is just part of the journey, not the destination.

Of course in America there's probably another term engineers might have for R128:


Socialist.


Boo me all you want - I live in the USA - verrry anti-regulatory climate here. So I can't imagine something like EBUR128 taking root here.
Old 26th October 2013
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
It's because of how many posts per page are set up in your account. When you're not logged on, the default is 30. Obviously you have more posts per page set up in your preferences so it re-paginates for that when you're logged in.

For example, I have it set up for 100 posts per page so when I'm logged in, this is actually 2 pages for me.

Regards,
Frank

Apologies for my being unclear - I was referring to total thread page-count. It differs between being logged in and being logged out.
Old 26th October 2013
  #130
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Waltz Mastering's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
Look at Spotify, which has an always-on peak limiter. It processes ISPs for instance.

So it's reasonable to believe that iTunes Radio has one or will implement one, and I assume that's what Bob does.
From what Ian Shepherd wrote it seems the limiter in Spotify is only engaged when the volume normalization is dis-abled, ...but who really knows what goes on behind the scene from station to station... All radio tends to be a moving target anyways...

Quote:
Spotify adds extra limiting to high-level tracks when “Volume Normalisation” is disabled – not when it’s enabled
Why I was wrong about Spotify
Old 26th October 2013
  #131
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
From what Ian Shepherd wrote it seems the limiter in Spotify is only engaged when the volume normalization is dis-abled, ...but who really knows what goes on behind the scene from station to station... All radio tends to be a moving target anyways...
Why I was wrong about Spotify
If norm enabled, Spotify normalizes to a higher volume (~ -13 LUFS) than iTunes Radio (-16.5). (the distributor's loudness war). Even if they just use a safety peak limiter at 0, more tracks would be affected by Spotify peak limiting than iTunes Radio (Soundcheck) because of the higher Spotify level nomalization. The Spotify Web Player doesn't normalize at all (yet).

Last edited by walter88; 26th October 2013 at 08:49 PM.. Reason: added -16.5
Old 7th November 2013
  #132
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MattGray's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Reply from Apple

I asked some questions about iTunes Radio to Apple's 'Buddy Judge' this was his reply..

Quote:
Hi Matthew,

Nice to hear from you!

On Nov 5, 2013, at 7:22 PM, Matthew Gray <[email protected]> wrote:

2. iTunes Radio.. Is there any 'official' or unofficial details of how this whole process works to help mix and mastering engineers to create a master which will sound best on iTunes Radio? I've heard that 'Sound Check' normalises the levels using a target of –16 LUFS is this correct? Should I be aiming to master material to meet with this level standard in order for the levels not to be adjusted (up or down) by iTunes Radio?
3. Is iTunes Radio applying the 'Sound Check' levels in real-time? Or is this an offline process which is applied to Apple's playlists


This is certainly an ongoing conversation among ME’s since the most recent AES... Apple has not officially announced that Soundcheck is in use on iTunes Radio, though I have seen some of the measurements others have made and they do seem to be around -16… Properly mastered material wouldn't have much to worry about — again we are talking about a gain change, not processing per se. A hand on the volume knob… I have heard it argued that this ends the “Loudness Wars” in that it removes the advantage of extreme limiting, rounded clipping, etc.. We’ll see about that...

Best,

Buddy
Old 7th November 2013
  #133
Interesting stuff.
Old 8th November 2013
  #134
Here for the gear
 

Late on the news but very exciting. Looks like Katz did the same tests I did a year ago to arrive at similar conclusions.

Op Ed: What Do "Mastered for iTunes" and "Sound Check" Do To Music Listening? - Create Digital Music

Hopefully everyone gets on board.
Old 8th November 2013
  #135
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Shawn Hatfield's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by primusluta View Post
Late on the news but very exciting. Looks like Katz did the same tests I did a year ago to arrive at similar conclusions.

Op Ed: What Do "Mastered for iTunes" and "Sound Check" Do To Music Listening? - Create Digital Music

Hopefully everyone gets on board.

Thanks for the article, Primus. It's definitely exciting times ahead for music.

One question, what was it Apple said that made MFiT seem like it would claim something like this:

"It’s an interesting situation for a compilation release, in which styles range from ambient to muddy beats. Finding a good balance that keeps them all flowing together is an art in and of itself. But it would seem Apple has that all solved with their Master for iTunes droplet. Drag the high-quality files to the droplet, and presto-chango — out come files that all play perfectly in iTunes."

I only ask out of curiousity as reading the MFiT documentation never once made me think that it had anything to do with making a compilation sound cohesive.
Old 8th November 2013
  #136
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hmiller's Avatar
I like to sometimes ask, "What's your favorite Bob Katz record?". Is it a coincidence that the people writing articles and doing press releases on the loudness thing can't make loud records themselves?

When was the last time you saw "Ted Jensen/Dave Collins/Chris Athens/Tom Coyne/Chris Gehringer Declares…….."?
Old 8th November 2013
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twerk View Post
I only ask out of curiousity as reading the MFiT documentation never once made me think that it had anything to do with making a compilation sound cohesive.
The misuse of the term 'mastering' for what's essentially just encoding. A mastered for itunes suite, implies there's some sort of mastering going on.
Old 9th November 2013
  #138
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basmartin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntley Miller View Post
I like to sometimes ask, "What's your favorite Bob Katz record?". Is it a coincidence that the people writing articles and doing press releases on the loudness thing can't make loud records themselves?

When was the last time you saw "Ted Jensen/Dave Collins/Chris Athens/Tom Coyne/Chris Gehringer Declares…….."?
Some nice albums here Bob Katz | Credits | AllMusic
Old 9th November 2013
  #139
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Shawn Hatfield's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by primusluta View Post
The misuse of the term 'mastering' for what's essentially just encoding. A mastered for itunes suite, implies there's some sort of mastering going on.
Gotcha! I suppose being a mastering engineer, that never would have crossed my mind. I wonder how many people out there who aren't ME's tried to drop their project onto the applet and call it "mastered".
Old 10th November 2013
  #140
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Transistor's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntley Miller View Post
I like to sometimes ask, "What's your favorite Bob Katz record?".
Motorpsycho - Little Lucid Moments.

r,
j,
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