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Old 3rd July 2014
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
I don't think so. I think A+C and B+C are basically totally new, non-existant cable assemblies. Your conclusion, in the absence of any scientific understanding of what is happening exactly, may be wrong.
So you think that C will somehow interact with the supposedly very different A and B in two very different ways which by some amazing coincidence happens to make result in both combinations having exactly the same effect on audio passing through them?

That's one hell of a reach.
Old 3rd July 2014
  #212
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
I would conclude, there would be NO SONIC difference between a DAC2 and ANY other units with similar specs.
You say the DAC2 is on the edge of measurability, yet still we can measure it just fine. If you think at that level it's perfectly transparent and would sound the same as another unit having the same "edge of measurability" specs, then why would you not apply that same line of thinking to cable assemblies?
Old 3rd July 2014
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
You say the DAC2 is on the edge of measurability, yet still we can measure it just fine. If you think at that level it's perfectly transparent and would sound the same as another unit having the same "edge of measurability" specs, then why would you not apply that same line of thinking to cable assemblies?
The measured differences would be very small in all but the most audiophile of designs.

With regard to cable sound, I certainly have never claimed that the wire can’t change the sound - I know it can and have heard it happen. That’s why when I’m considering new cables I look at both the technical specs and listen to a sample.

In looking back on this, I think I probably introduced Doug to solid-core wire back in the 1880’s, which he still uses today.

I’ve been an advocate of normal, affordable, wire (previously in the form of Belden 1800F, recently the Grimm TPR) and know that several people on the forum use this wire - possibly on my recommendation.

Usually where these threads go left/hilarious is when we get into pseudo-scientific claims of the “cable designers.” These claims, if you have even the slightest technical background, are pretty wild! Wild as in impossible. In Piedpipers one post, there were some things that don’t exist at all, some that exist, but are totally insignificant in audio, and one (micro diodes) that, if it was true, would be the subject of a Nobel Prize and become a billion dollar business overnight.

If you want to choose a cable with obvious coloration, fine. My approach is to try to reduce any change in the cable as it’s the only thing in the room you go through on every session.


DC
Old 3rd July 2014
  #214
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hmiller's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
The confusing part is "cable tone is bull****" followed by "better and is confirmed as such by listening"
How can you combine A with B ?
I was responding to someone who wants coloration from cable. That's like having transformers on your A/D converter. My goal is transparency. You should try the Grimm with your DAC2.
Old 3rd July 2014
  #215
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I find it rather revealing that all these ppl literally wet their pants when it comes to something as simple as objectivity. Especially since all of them sit right between a DA/AD on a daily basis.

And it's been my experience with the whole "above high end" sector, these people are too coward to put their own claims to test. All this gets particularly ridiculous, since they've been throwing around scientific terms since the beginning.

From the intellectual point of view, this style of debate is truly insulting. And probably a pure waste of time. Cables are dying out anyway (when it comes to data transmission), it's just a matter of time. Ask your kids about audio interconnection, they'll laugh.
Old 3rd July 2014
  #216
nms
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I hit up Chris @ Redco to ask if they were carrying the new Gothams with the "inception" shielding (yo, we put shielding inside your shielding, inside your shielding!):

Quote:
We haven’t brought in any of these ultra-pro AES or quad cables yet, haven’t tried them. Although AES is a lower capacitance cable and is fine for analog, I can’t say you’ll actually hear a difference in a 10’ cable length.

Both the standard GAC-2 AES and GAC4/1 that we carry are very good choices for this.
Any of us can attest that Redco are trustworthy no BS guys. Again the view is a rational one which agrees with the current lack of measurable examples.

Looking at the updated cable, I can't help but wonder what I would need all this extra shielding from when patching my rack gear or running my studio monitors. What is gained by this additional shielding around the individual conductors? I don't doubt they'd be great in places with big interference issues, but for any of our implementations it just looks like it would make it a pain in the ass to solder:

New:


Old:


It seems the double reussen shields each with 100% coverage are doing the job more than well enough for me.
Old 4th July 2014
  #217
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The new cable allows you to wire an unbalanced system in a pseudo balanced arrangement. Neumann did this with their consoles. Although all connections are unbalanced the shield for the individual module input/output is floated from chassis and only connects via a jumper at the power inlet. While the overall shield goes to chassis.
Old 4th July 2014
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
I hit up Chris @ Redco to ask if they were carrying the new Gothams with the "inception" shielding (yo, we put shielding inside your shielding, inside your shielding!):


Any of us can attest that Redco are trustworthy no BS guys. Again the view is a rational one which agrees with the current lack of measurable examples.

Looking at the updated cable, I can't help but wonder what I would need all this extra shielding from when patching my rack gear or running my studio monitors. What is gained by this additional shielding around the individual conductors? I don't doubt they'd be great in places with big interference issues, but for any of our implementations it just looks like it would make it a pain in the ass to solder:
So you cannot see the individually connectors are shielded from each other, and not in the old ?
Does anyone here accept the fact that there is some induction going on between closely twisted pairs, while they are opposite polarity ?
Old 4th July 2014
  #219
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
So you cannot see the individually connectors are shielded from each other, and not in the old ?
I don't think it could be any more obvious, especially given my comments.
Quote:
Does anyone here accept the fact that there is some induction going on between closely twisted pairs, while they are opposite polarity ?
Not if it's impossible to be measured and the loopbacks null perfectly. Balanced lines are meant to cancel out what is picked up along the cable run.

If you think there is induction then you can do a null test patching the cables in between your DB25 and there will be a difference. Adding an extra chunk of another cable isn't going to magically make it disappear if anything is there.
Old 6th July 2014
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Does anyone here accept the fact that there is some induction going on between closely twisted pairs, while they are opposite polarity ?
Absolutely not....induction requires large currents ,that just can not exist in
Any audio signal lines of any description running parallel in a multicore cable
Old 9th July 2014
  #221
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Up to the 60s or 70s, it was generally considered a fact that power amps all sounded the same
try the 80s...
Old 9th July 2014
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
try the 80s...
Book Review: <I>Sound Bites: 50 Years of Hi-Fi News</I> | Stereophile.com

I don’t own this book but subscribed to HFN&RR for many moons. Surely most serious reviewers, designers, and listeners did not think all amps sounded alike. Maybe in Consumer Reports or something.

However, there were some blind tests of power amps that didn’t show the type of differences one would expect.

Blind Listening | Stereophile.com

Assuming that blind tests are allowed, naturalment...
Old 9th July 2014
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Usually where these threads go left/hilarious is when we get into pseudo-scientific claims of the “cable designers.” These claims, if you have even the slightest technical background, are pretty wild! Wild as in impossible. In Piedpipers one post, there were some things that don’t exist at all, some that exist, but are totally insignificant in audio, and one (micro diodes) that, if it was true, would be the subject of a Nobel Prize and become a billion dollar business overnight.

If you want to choose a cable with obvious coloration, fine. My approach is to try to reduce any change in the cable as it’s the only thing in the room you go through on every session.
My point that it seems to me that you keep missing is that I wasn't trying to argue the validity of the claims so much as to point out that the claims are different than the ones that were being stated by the poster I was responding to.

The fact that some of these kind of claims are made by people I personally know to have impeccable integrity as well as significant scientific credentials that arguably dwarf yours is certainly interesting to me, but even so, I remain open minded about the whole affair, more so all the time. IME, questionable to some as that may be, their cables have consistently made bigger differences than anything else I've tried. So which "authority" am I to believe. At this point, I "believe" none and do my best to use my ears as well as making a pass at understanding the theory at least.

But really, at this point, I've done with obsessing about such things and mostly just do my work using what I've got, which is plenty good. At some point I might try doing some comparative recordings and see what I can find. At the moment I'm way too busy to be even attending to this thread. My bad...

Regarding your other earlier statement about plenty of great recordings being made with run o the mill cables, I fail to see what is so hard to understand about my assertion that this is irrelevant to the discussion of whether cables can make a difference. The fact that some incredibly compelling music was recorded on 78s and worse has nothing to do with the fact that LPs sound vastly better. Bringing in this issue belies your bias and doesn't do your more logical points justice, IMHO.

And regarding Brian's request that you keep it nice, I'm guessing your honest enough to know that some of your baiting and other disrespectful antics were probably not your best moments, though I believe I understand and respect your motives, as you've made them clear.

Re: your priority for neutral cables over colorations, that would be my priority as well, which extends to my other gear more so than many around here...
Old 9th July 2014
  #224
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Book Review: <I>Sound Bites: 50 Years of Hi-Fi News</I> | Stereophile.com

I don’t own this book but subscribed to HFN&RR for many moons. Surely most serious reviewers, designers, and listeners did not think all amps sounded alike. Maybe in Consumer Reports or something.

However, there were some blind tests of power amps that didn’t show the type of differences one would expect.

Blind Listening | Stereophile.com

Assuming that blind tests are allowed, naturalment...
Certainly a lot of guys knew better, but there were some... Julian Hirsch comes to mind, if memory serves, which it well may not be...

EDIT: the more I think about it the more I'm convinced that I'm misremembering the name of the reviewer I was trying to think of...
Old 9th July 2014
  #225
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lucey's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
The measured differences would be very small in all but the most audiophile of designs.

With regard to cable sound, I certainly have never claimed that the wire can’t change the sound - I know it can and have heard it happen. That’s why when I’m considering new cables I look at both the technical specs and listen to a sample.

In looking back on this, I think I probably introduced Doug to solid-core wire back in the 1880’s, which he still uses today.

I’ve been an advocate of normal, affordable, wire (previously in the form of Belden 1800F, recently the Grimm TPR) and know that several people on the forum use this wire - possibly on my recommendation.

Usually where these threads go left/hilarious is when we get into pseudo-scientific claims of the “cable designers.” These claims, if you have even the slightest technical background, are pretty wild! Wild as in impossible. In Piedpipers one post, there were some things that don’t exist at all, some that exist, but are totally insignificant in audio, and one (micro diodes) that, if it was true, would be the subject of a Nobel Prize and become a billion dollar business overnight.

If you want to choose a cable with obvious coloration, fine. My approach is to try to reduce any change in the cable as it’s the only thing in the room you go through on every session.


DC
0. Sure there are some bogus claims in cables ... and also in EVERYTHING ... so why the soapbox? We are adults here, let the buyer beware.

1. If I had more time I would find where you did say there was no reason to ever leave Beldenland. Repeatedly. Now you have nuanced the position, using Grimm cables.

2. "Cable designer" in quotes is so insulting. Is that like "gear designer" for mastering engineers who moonlight? Robert Lee at Acoustic Zen could surely keep up with any banter you'd like to engage in, given his background ... and he's not alone. I don't see how a blanket insult of the whole lot of people in the field is any less prejudicial or bigoted than a racial epithet.

3. "If you want to choose a cable with obvious coloration, fine". Snarky trickery. And again, according to you it's all so small of a degree how much can it degrade or improve?



Supposedly rock solid logical points that don't add up.
Old 9th July 2014
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
But you've been unable to capture this in any sort of measurement or recording?
Why not do a loopback with both cables and use RightMark Audio Analyzer or try a null test? Surely you must have some way of capturing this?
I tried this Rightmark software. The new version does not install on my Win7 pc.
The old version is very rudimentary. Repeating the same test on the same cable already gives the smallest differences possible in this software. It gives the same sort of differences on another cable.

In the meantime, my colleague and a speaker designer have visited the mastering room, and listened to the difference between silver cable and the new Gotham.
Everybody hears the same differences. Everybody can hear it within two seconds.

The speaker designer agrees no conventional measurement will show a significant difference.

Anyone has an idea of what to look for ?

I know what to listen for ...
Old 9th July 2014
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
I tried this Rightmark software. The new version does not install on my Win7 pc.
The old version is very rudimentary. Repeating the same test on the same cable already gives the smallest differences possible in this software. It gives the same sort of differences on another cable.

In the meantime, my colleague and a speaker designer have visited the mastering room, and listened to the difference between silver cable and the new Gotham.
Everybody hears the same differences. Everybody can hear it within two seconds.

The speaker designer agrees no conventional measurement will show a significant difference.

Anyone has an idea of what to look for ?

I know what to listen for ...
Use this stereo test signal http://www.tokyodawn.net/labs/Analyze.wav and simply upload the results back here.

Make sure to test several cables in order to "cancel out" any degradation coming from your AD/DA converters, as we're purely interested in the relative differences.
Old 9th July 2014
  #228
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This is pointless.
First the test signal is too simple.
I cannot hear differences on sine sweeps, so why would I measure them ?

Second, as I wrote already, the Benchmark DAC2 is a resampling dac, so even when I test twice the same cable, the files do not null.
Old 9th July 2014
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
This is pointless.
First the test signal is too simple.
I cannot hear differences on sine sweeps, so why would I measure them ?

Second, as I wrote already, the Benchmark DAC2 is a resampling dac, so even when I test twice the same cable, the files do not null.

Mhh.. I am not really sure how to react to this. You obviously have absolutely no idea about measurements and signal analysis and use this ignorance to explain why the test signal I posted makes no sense? So much that it's not even worth a try? btw, I use exactly the same DAC and really do not understand what it so difficult about recording two different cables via the same DA/AD.

This is not about null or A/B tests. Null tests are no proper engineering practice, you should know better. Just because you have no idea of typical signal/processor analysis doesn't mean it can't be done properly. Again, your behaviour is highly revealing and predictable. It's called trolling.
Old 9th July 2014
  #230
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Then what exactly should I do with this test signal ?
Old 9th July 2014
  #231
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The signal contains several tests at once.

The most important one is the special stereo impulse which allows a complete analysis of the linear (parts of the) system. This includes the exact frequency and phase response, as well as any form of linear cross-feed effect. You need some sort of FFT tranform tool with low level access to do this (code).

The other tests are most of all aimed at visual transient analysis (DC steps), intermodulation behaviour (the strange wobling sweep) and a sine sweep for testing some typical frequency and level dependent non-linearities. These tests can be analysed with a real-time fft or visually (either directly or after log conversion, i.e. decibel).

Just upload the file and I'll be able to provide a good analysis. Other GS users may do the same.


Please don't get me wrong. This is not meant to be offensive, it's really about objectivity. I know that speaker cables can have a noticeable effect on overall performance, and would be happy to observe the same problem with line signals interconnections under properly verifiable conditions.
Old 10th July 2014
  #232
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
This is pointless.
First the test signal is too simple.
I cannot hear differences on sine sweeps, so why would I measure them ?


This is indeed a very ridiculous thought. If gear manufacturers thought this way then we would have no specs for anything! lol. Can you imagine if manufacturers simply listed subjective descriptions by ear?

All you need to do is pass that file through your DA/AD loop and record it at 44.1khz, 24bit. Then swap cables and repeat. Try this for your silver cable, then new gotham, then your gotham gac-2aes. To be extra safe, do the recordings one after the other with no unnecessary waiting in between. Fabien is a knowledgeable person to co-ordinate this with. This is good!
Old 10th July 2014
  #233
j_j
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Yannick - Please, please go here: AES PNW Meeting Report - Open Source Tools for FFT Analysis and grab the lot. Look at the powerpoint, learn about signal analysis, and if you are willing, upload octave (with signal processing and audio packages) and use these test methods to see what you can learn.

Along the way, learning how sweeps or allpass sequences do show what you are arguing about in simple, testable form would be a very good thing.

Please. Nobody's trying to be mean here, but you've made some major missteps in what, for instance, a sweep can show you about a system. I will say that I prefer an allpass sequence, myself, it offers time limitations that are easier to work with.

The signal on the site above was not set up for stereo, but you can use it for stereo if you like, test each channel separately and keep the results. It will even show any shifts in time delay, etc, rather nicely, assuming you read through the .ppt and learn how it works, first. FabienTDR, you might like the setup there, I suspect you'll read the .m file and know immediately why it does what it does, too.
Old 10th July 2014
  #234
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OK, I was not clear enough.
Given the right measurement software, the test signal is of course good.

But some posts on previous pages pointed to null tests and freeware that is capable of almost nothing.
On top of this my DA-AD loop is limited to -104 dB THD, which I gather is far above a state-of-the-art AP test rig. Which cannot show meaningfull differences either, either we would not be having this thread ?

I am currently uploading some .wavs for Fabian. I am afraid I do not have the time for the moment to look into octave and those test files.
Old 10th July 2014
  #235
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The two cables under test are here:

One.com File Manager

Two versions of the Gotham AES cable (to show they are not identical either)
One version of the silver cable.

I do not have enough cable/time to solder a d25 to XLR of the new Gotham starquad.

But if the two cables above measure identical, there is no point anyway...
Old 10th July 2014
  #236
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Just out of curiosity, I tried some sweeps in REW.
The only area where I can see a repeatable difference is in the IR.
There is a slight redistribution of energy in the AES cable compared to the silver cable.

What that means is something else.

As this site does not allow me to attach the .mdat, I have added it here:

One.com File Manager
Old 10th July 2014
  #237
j_j
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Please go run the tests given on the page I pointed to. Post the jpg results. Or give the results and the test signal to FabienTDR, or give the .wav files to FabienTDR. Let's just have some simple, clear tests run here, and see what differences there are.

This is not rocket science.
Old 10th July 2014
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Please go run the tests given on the page I pointed to. Post the jpg results. Or give the results and the test signal to FabienTDR, or give the .wav files to FabienTDR. Let's just have some simple, clear tests run here, and see what differences there are.
Octave does not install/run so easily on Windows. I don't think I will waste time trying to do just that.

The .wavs are posted above !
Old 10th July 2014
  #239
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Hi-end cables are like expensive clothes: they don't help you perform any particular function better, but they do make you feel better about yourself! So they serve a useful purpose.
Old 10th July 2014
  #240
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Please go run the tests given on the page I pointed to. Post the jpg results. Or give the results and the test signal to FabienTDR, or give the .wav files to FabienTDR. Let's just have some simple, clear tests run here, and see what differences there are.

This is not rocket science.
Fabien already gave him the test file he wanted him to run and Yannick just posted the recording for him to analyze. I can understand if he doesn't want to start installing and learning software, going over powerpoints etc.
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