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High End Cables
Old 26th June 2014
  #151
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That itself makes sense, much of this faux-science is derived from other, normally inappropriate applications and at other scales.
(I wasn't implying that you subscribe to the idea BTW)
Old 26th June 2014
  #152
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I will admit that I don't know the technical reason why, but the bass was much clearer and deeper when I plugged the Mogami's in. UNDOUBTEDLY. My ears were not lying and there was nothing different aside from plugging in the new cables. Perhaps it was filtering out high frequency noise that led to more bass. I don't know. But I would guarantee if anyone had never heard the MPC, and first used Livewire cables and then switched to Mogami, they would hear a very different representation of the low end with the Mogami's.
Old 27th June 2014
  #153
j_j
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
I will admit that I don't know the technical reason why, but the bass was much clearer and deeper when I plugged the Mogami's in. UNDOUBTEDLY. My ears were not lying and there was nothing different aside from plugging in the new cables. Perhaps it was filtering out high frequency noise that led to more bass. I don't know. But I would guarantee if anyone had never heard the MPC, and first used Livewire cables and then switched to Mogami, they would hear a very different representation of the low end with the Mogami's.
Can you reproduce this without knowing which cable is being used at what time?

Seriously, attentional focusing can fool the daylights out of any human being.
Old 29th June 2014
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
I will admit that I don't know the technical reason why, but the bass was much clearer and deeper when I plugged the Mogami's in. UNDOUBTEDLY. My ears were not lying and there was nothing different aside from plugging in the new cables. Perhaps it was filtering out high frequency noise that led to more bass. I don't know. But I would guarantee if anyone had never heard the MPC, and first used Livewire cables and then switched to Mogami, they would hear a very different representation of the low end with the Mogami's.

May I suggest?
Reproduce it and record it... Check nothing's broken. Post it, but don't label. See who agrees.


(If you still have the Livewires... or if not - buy the worst cables you can find that are functional and meet technical and construction requirements).

The routine, is not to. Be "too busy".

Also: If I may ask, if you have a recorded sound (One instrument &/or a mix) that has unclear bass - How do you go about making the bass "clearer" using processing? How would you reproduce what you hear happening in the cable? It's definitely "clearer" and not more "sterile"?
Or do you think one can't - it's making the sound more transparent?
If you used 6" of the Livewire cable, would it still add this un-transparentness?
Old 29th June 2014
  #155
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You may also want to test your cables' resistances.
Old 29th June 2014
  #156
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I have no idea what's different between trs livewire and trs mogami. But they provide different representations of the low end. Mits not anything anyone can change my mind about. Period. I have never looked back and won't. Will I buy a $800 trs "hifi" cable for home theater speakers? He'll no! Will Mogami cable run throughout my entire studio system? He'll yes! Call me a fool. I've been called worse.
Old 29th June 2014
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Seriously, attentional focusing can fool the daylights out of any human being.
Absolutely ,Its because you want to hear a difference,not because there is !


Quote:
Originally Posted by OpusOfTrolls View Post
You may also want to test your cables' resistances.
And whats that going to tell you,?
Old 29th June 2014
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
Its not anything anyone can change my mind about. Period.
Exactly.
As I said: "The routine, is not to [post files]. Be "too busy":
You won't challenge your belief by testing it/yourself, which is pretty normal, hence these threads. You have invested in the idea, and probably... a few more, which can be a daunting prospect to face when we want to construct/preserve the belief that we are regarded as experts.
It's why these threads are always peppered with "drive-by anecdotes". The fruits of Confirmation Bias.

The McGurk Effect on Vimeo

How long are these cables, anyhow?
Old 29th June 2014
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
Perhaps it was filtering out high frequency noise that led to more bass.
Well if they are , you are already deceiving yourself as said cable is defective
And is acting as an HF filter.....
Old 29th June 2014
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Gold View Post
They do, but the ones in the filter sections, not so much.
I think they still do, not as much as the ins and out of course ... are you using the TMEQ now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
Now, this is going too far if you ask me. This is still a engineering forum, is it?

Neutrality is not a myth, it can be clearly defined, explained and tested. The key point is to keep human biology and psychology out of the equation.
Actually it's a gear forum, and a music makers forum and an engineering forum.

We can't keep humans out of human listening. We are the medium. Neutrality in audio or in listening is an ideal it's not real. Anything and everything changes the sound of a signal. By degrees, that can be very small.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
And the argument always seems to end up here, doesn’t it? No one (certainly not myself) is saying that cables _can’t_ change the sound. But when you make specific technical claims about how wire works - claims that range from unlikely to downright hilarious - why is it surprising that people speak up?

DC
Over the years you've bullied everyone who claimed there was such a thing as a better cable, or different cable. Your position has clearly evolved, as you're now using a better cable in your opinion.

To "speak up" on claims made by salespeople (who lie in every field) seems fair ... but let's keep it kind, would be be my hope.
Old 30th June 2014
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
I think they still do, not as much as the ins and out of course ... are you using the TMEQ now?
No but I'm familiar with the circuit. I couldn't tell the difference between brands of tubes in the filter sections. At least the ones i had around which were Telefunken, Valvo and Sovtek and probably another current production tube. In the output section getting the right tubes in there made it go from meh to heh. Valvo sounded the best to me.

I guess h-e-h gets one of those things. Not my fault.
Old 30th June 2014
  #162
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomatic View Post
I can hear a slight improvement subjectively with the Grimm over the Mogami......
I believe it. They're different cables.

You can get something as good or better for a fraction of the cost though IMO.

The king of cables. $1.10/ft from Redco: Gotham Kabel AG | 10601 GAC-2 AES Low loss flexible AES cable

I don't think a cable exists which offers a more accurate transfer than that without being subtle and quite overpriced. Of course, this is assuming you don't have a particular problematic situation requiring star quad cable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
That is one of the biggest misconceptions around. I have posted this on the remote forum a decade ago. It is not because one or two brands have very high capacitance in their quad cables that this is always the case.

With Gotham, it is even the inverse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Ransom View Post
By "Link to show me otherwise" I meant to show that almost all quad cables are not higher capacitance than their balanced counterparts.
Gotham sums it up with this line: "The "Star-Quad" concept is known and recommended where the RF-rejection is the most important factor and where very long cable runs are needed."
If you don't require it you're better off with another cable choice like the one above. A lot of people miss that one though since it's listed as an AES cable.
Old 30th June 2014
  #163
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The Grimm is pretty inexpensive so I can easily justify.....
I have had some really expensive stuff in my shop for evaluation
that actually sounded worse than Mogami or redco.
The Cable thing is Murky at best!
Old 30th June 2014
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Gotham sums it up with this line: "The "Star-Quad" concept is known and recommended where the RF-rejection is the most important factor and where very long cable runs are needed."
If you don't require it you're better off with another cable choice like the one above. A lot of people miss that one though since it's listed as an AES cable.
I have the gotham aes cable. I can assure you, though it is good, it is surely not the best sounding cable.
Old 30th June 2014
  #165
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
I have the gotham aes cable. I can assure you, though it is good, it is surely not the best sounding cable.
What do you think is a more transparent cable then? Particularly without going to really expensive silver core cables etc?

Is your view there supported by any technical testing or blind listening test? Recordings? Null test?
Old 30th June 2014
  #166
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I havent found a very good alternative yet.

I also havent found a reliable way for a null test.
Old 30th June 2014
  #167
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
I havent found a very good alternative yet.
Do you have any need for one? Is there something you think is missing with the GAC-2AES?

Quote:
I also havent found a reliable way for a null test.
You could always null test the two cables by making serial recordings in a typical DAC/ADC loopback format. Otherwise, if you wanted to keep it all in the analog realm you'd need to wire a pair of cables in a balanced run with one of them soldered differently at one end, causing the phase to be flipped.. then sum the two cables together in a device which has no measurable difference between inputs. This would have a greater room for error than using the same channels in a DAC/ADC loopback though.

For the hell of it I emailed Gotham to ask if they have anything better for those who don't have special interference needs. I have to order a few more cables soon, so I'm up for trying a pair of something else if there's any reason to. To date the GAC-2AES has been my top pick though.
Old 30th June 2014
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
You could always null test the two cables by making serial recordings in a typical DAC/ADC loopback format.
thats how i did it during my evaluations.

Quote:
Otherwise, if you wanted to keep it all in the analog realm you'd need to wire a pair of cables in a balanced run with one of them soldered differently at one end, causing the phase to be flipped.. then sum the two cables together in a device which has no measurable difference between inputs. This would have a greater room for error than using the same channels in a DAC/ADC loopback though.
and that was also my follow up idea, to take the converter out of the equation, e.g. by a passive summing device which is capabale of inverting the phase of channel.

another thing to think about is input/output impedance of the gear which is connected to the cable. if you want to evaluate it better, you would also need to have that in the equation, maybe by just building some simple boxes that set a given input/output impedance at the beginning & the end of the cable before the null test & see if this has an impact which isn't negligible.
Old 30th June 2014
  #169
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Lagerfeldt's Avatar
I'll stay (mostly) out of the cable war, instead I'll offer some advice on what I chose and why:

I use Mogami 2534 with Neutrik plugs for most of the audio wiring in my studio. One of the reasons is the high RFI rejection, which is about 10-20 dB better than most similar cables. This is also happens to be the specific Mogami model recommended by gear company Dangerous Music. All cables are as short as possible, just enough slack to not cause problems, but very short runs.

From my Classé amp to the B&W 802 Diamond speakers I use Van Damme Loudspeaker 2 x 6mm Directional Hi-Fi (product number 268-506-000). The directional part is a bit silly, despite what some audiophools claim, but they're high quality, solid, low resistance, and a perfect fit. The cable is soldered with silver to Dali gold bananas into the Diamonds.

I use Oehlbach RCAs a few places (e.g. from the turntable preamp), nice quality and tight gold connectors. I used to have some very expensive van den Hul digital cables in my old setup, but the connectors sucked big time.

In terms of system noise I was able to lower my base noise floor (DA - Routing Matrix - AD) an additional 4 dB by getting two Furman P1400 AR E conditioners and hooking up everything to those. Now I'm at -104 dBFS peak on this roundtrip, which includes the Dangerous Liaison with looped busses. The same relative improvement with inserted gear, though the Summit Neve EQ-200 benefitted the most (probably a step-up trafo). Power cables are all custom from my cable guy, no idea what, though.

Some of my gear has been modified for lower noise, mainly by moving power supplies and rewiring. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Old 30th June 2014
  #170
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Slug1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Ransom View Post
Exactly.
As I said: "The routine, is not to [post files]. Be "too busy":
You won't challenge your belief by testing it/yourself, which is pretty normal, hence these threads. You have invested in the idea, and probably... a few more, which can be a daunting prospect to face when we want to construct/preserve the belief that we are regarded as experts.
It's why these threads are always peppered with "drive-by anecdotes". The fruits of Confirmation Bias.

The McGurk Effect on Vimeo

How long are these cables, anyhow?
Relatively short. All were 6 foot, both Livewire and Mogami. And I sort of did test it with my ears. I don't consider it an anecdote. It was an experience. I know what I heard. And it wasn't something I was 'listening for'. I experienced it. The low end representation between the Livewire TRS and the Mogami TRS was/is different.
Old 30th June 2014
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
Relatively short. All were 6 foot, both Livewire and Mogami. And I sort of did test it with my ears. I don't consider it an anecdote. It was an experience. I know what I heard. And it wasn't something I was 'listening for'. I experienced it. The low end representation between the Livewire TRS and the Mogami TRS was/is different.
I totally believe you heard it. That's how it works.

The ONLY important (meaningful) factor IMHO is whether someone else hears the same thing, without the same steering, expectations, biases.
(Again "expectation" in this context does not just cover things we are expecting. There are subconscious biases).
You and I and everyone can experience radical, totally convincing distortion (not the clipping/saturation kind) of what we hear. Just as optical illusions can be bewildering, as someone else pointed out... Audible illusions aren't really appreciated (and many hate the idea that they might be fallible when they regard themselves as being so skilled) - but one might ask "why wouldn't they be as powerful as optical ones?"

We know exactly what "not" to expect in the picture below. And we're experts at looking at things. But you WILL see movement.

In quite a few circumstances: You cannot trust your ears.
In matters like those, every claim that's not been adequately verified by formal testing is anecdotal.
Attached Thumbnails
High End Cables-turning-wheels-optical-illusion.jpg  
Old 30th June 2014
  #172
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
One of the reasons is the high RFI rejection, which is about 10-20 dB better than most similar cables.
Did you have issues with RFI? If you swap one out for something else can you see an immediate change in noise on a spec analyzer? I've never observed any perceivable interference and my runs are short as possible like yours, so I always thought there was no point in star quad cable for my studio.

Well, I heard back from the engineer at Gotham with some sobering information. So as we know there's the obvious absence of people who have been able to measure differences or identify them in blind testing. Just the usual "I know what I heard" anecdotes. Then you have an engineer at Gotham saying this:

Quote:
Starquad has better shielding, so there is never to much shielding, use your funds for shielding and not for so called "good sounding Cables"

There is no good "sound" on any cable!!!

In general there is no sonic behaviours of any wire! It is not our philosophy to support sonic performance claims of a cable nor on soldering nor on connectors! There is no such thing!
We do not support statements of "experts" who value soldering joints a factor of sound! There is no such thing!

There is no sound improvement with cabling possible! In best circumstances the cable will not hurt your existing sound!

So you want to protect your genuine signal from influences and this is done by best possible shielding! This is all there is!

For active SPK we also have a nice solution
our Hybrid 11510/11520 to bring power and signal to your speakers.

see: http://www.gotham.ch/en/index.php?section=docsys&cmd=11_details&id=17"
Then on the other hand you have a company like Grimm posting stuff like this on their page:
Quote:
“TPR outperforms all the others providing an impressive stereo image and a stunningly accurate phantom center.”
Suddenly cables are what makes for an accurate phantom center? lol.
Old 1st July 2014
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Then you have an engineer at Gotham saying this:


Then on the other hand you have a company like Grimm posting stuff like this on their page:


Suddenly cables are what makes for an accurate phantom center? lol.
In the interests of trying to assess things fairly:

Um, Whilst I'm sure Gotham make exemplary cables... actually this isn't the best way to convincingly present the idea that most cable effect claims are vastly exaggerated or plain erroneous IMO.

And I don't think anyone REALLY doubts that 10m of curly instrument cable from a passive instrument into a tube amp will have some top subdued: There are a few cases where the effects of capacitance can dip into the human hearing range. (Though, not in "normal application" line, buffered/active instrument and interconnect situations with properly functional cables, sure. Dynamics, transient modification, "speed", directionality and even amplification [Yep, "louder" cables] of course. still unproven in AFAIK over 40 years.)

Reductive fallacy.
I'm actually surprised an engineer said this, though it may have been an informal rant.

Re: The Grimm quote...
Also reductive. Turn/move your head a few of inches and you will produce an effect a thousandfold more powerful in upsetting the frequency balance hitting your ear than an over-long healthy cable could produce.
Old 1st July 2014
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Then on the other hand you have a company like Grimm posting stuff like this on their page:

Quote:
“TPR outperforms all the others providing an impressive stereo image and a stunningly accurate phantom center.”
Suddenly cables are what makes for an accurate phantom center? lol.
Your quote is of a customer quote on Grimm's TPR page.

As I said earlier, I think the secret with Grimm is to note what they claim for themselves, and what they leave to customer quotes.

Their own claims seem technically viable and verifiable, the customer quotes however appear to be dripping with myth and perception bias.
Old 1st July 2014
  #175
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So...you go out and spend a zillion bucks rewiring your studio with the latest and greatest supercable only to find that the place has lost all of its mojo...
Old 1st July 2014
  #176
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdenton View Post
So...you go out and spend a zillion bucks rewiring your studio with the latest and greatest supercable only to find that the place has lost all of its mojo...
Then you wake up from that dream in the real world where mojo doesn't come from cables at all!
Old 1st July 2014
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Hodgson View Post
Your quote is of a customer quote on Grimm's TPR page.

As I said earlier, I think the secret with Grimm is to note what they claim for themselves, and what they leave to customer quotes.

Their own claims seem technically viable and verifiable, the customer quotes however appear to be dripping with myth and perception bias.
Grimm is a no BS company making no BS cables.

_They_ certainly aren’t making any crazy and impossible claims for the wire.

I always have to wonder if there isn’t some insecurity at work when it comes to audio cables. I mean if you can’t get a great sound with $1 a foot cables, you need to look somewhere else - maybe anywhere else - for the answer.

Then spend maybe $5 a foot and move on.

Fortunately blameless interconnects are cheap and easily available.
Old 1st July 2014
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Did you have issues with RFI? If you swap one out for something else can you see an immediate change in noise on a spec analyzer? I've never observed any perceivable interference and my runs are short as possible like yours, so I always thought there was no point in star quad cable for my studio.
You're right, it's probably overkill, but Mogami is generally reasonably priced so it can't hurt to have additional RFI rejection.

RFI rejection capability is something you actually can measure (as opposed to pseudo scientific claims about skin effect, directionality or using porcelain cable holders) so it's one of the areas where I don't mind wearing both a belt and suspenders. I guess that's why Dangerous Music specifically recommends Mogami 2534 as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
I always have to wonder if there isn’t some insecurity at work when it comes to audio cables. I mean if you can’t get a great sound with $1 a foot cables, you need to look somewhere else - maybe anywhere else - for the answer.
True, and you could extend this concept to a lot of other areas, e.g. the 192 kHz sample rate fad (which unlike expensive cables actually is fairly harmful to the sound). However, I don't have a problem with anyone buying incredibly expensive cables if they believe they can hear a difference, but I do have a problem with the perpetuation of any myths that feed on the insecurities of people.
Old 1st July 2014
  #179
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cables for line signals are overrated (louspeaker -, microphone- and intrumental-cables are more pretentious), as long they keep the conditions of the "deutsche rundfunkpflichtenheft", i'm happy.
Old 1st July 2014
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Do you have any need for one? Is there something you think is missing with the GAC-2AES?
Rereading I must correct "not the best sounding" by "very good sounding, but not completely transparant".
Not the best in English (not my native language) comes accross as very negative ?

Yes I am missing some transparancy and there is something bothering me in the high end, resonances, some micro dynamics also seem unnatural.

I finally soldered a short pair of the new individually shielded starquad GOthams.
Preliminary listening tests would indicate that this one could solve quite a few problems !

At only 10 euro/m...
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