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High End Cables
Old 6th June 2014
  #91
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loujudson's Avatar
ABX is the only fair test. Only if BOTH parties do not know which it is at any moment is it fair.

I'm glad you can all afford to have fun with all this expensive wire crap. I use durable and good cables and do live sound, so I make my living with my wires!

But I'm signing off this boring discussion. I have work to do!
Old 20th June 2014
  #92
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Mark D.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
In 50 years of audio as a professional, I have never used an unbalanced cable with a lifted ground, and never had hum problems. Even in a 1 mile proximity to 25 TV station transmitters on Mt Sutro in SF. AC is AC, and if it works ungrounded there is some other return path for the AC audio signal. Still bunk to me, this directionality thing. Who made the copper molecules polarity sensitive? Bunk.
I have run sound in more than one club that has grounding issues. In none of those cases did I use, or even consider, "directional cable" to resolve that. Just typical ground lift methods. Again, I agree that the idea of directional copper is a myth. I was referring to the cable, not the copper. But rather than beat a dead horse, I'll get back to the debate on sound quality.

I've done blind cable shoot outs, and cables do sound different. How different, and how much is that worth, and does it matter in a live rig? Those are factors to consider, and they're not audiphile nonsense. In a studio, with passive pickups and clean tones or direct recording, it makes a difference. For active pickups, or for distorted guitar on a live stage, not much at all.
Old 20th June 2014
  #93
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Directionality in cables is related to the in/out impedances of the equipment in use.
Old 21st June 2014
  #94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Bauer View Post
I have both Vovox and Mogami cables and am very happy with them. I like to use the Vovox cables with the analog processing gear, as they have a slightly airy sound to them. The Mogami cables are connected to my active monitors, which creates a detailed yet down-to-earth kind of a sound. I have no idea whether any of that makes sense, but that's what my ears suggested during various blind tests. Either way, you will find both brands being used in countless studios around the world.
I have spent 100.-€ on a Vovox cable in order to connect my TB-303 to the soundcard. And yes for my ears there is another quality for the sound. Whether you can say dynamics!?. I don´t know but I´m happy with that change even for that money.

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Old 21st June 2014
  #95
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Directionality is usually claimed to have to do with the crystal lattice orientation of the molecules, enhanced by certain manufacturing methods, nothing to do with grounding issues or impedance. From what I understand, the way the wire is cast and drawn is claimed to be able to make things more or less directional depending. When more directional, the orientation makes more of a difference than when not optimized for directionality. Another main issue in high end cable design is dielectric quality and quantity. Dielectric quality is a fairly well known phenomenon, Teflon and polypropylene being preferred to the much cheaper and more common PVC, which is rated very low quality for audio purposes. The quantity and proximity of the dielectric to the conductor is something that is another thing that is typically not prioritized in cheap cable, or even most expensive cable, contributing to subtle signal smearing from the insulation "absorbing" a bit of the signal and rereleasing it slightly delayed. Keeping the dielectric very thin and distancing it from the conductor is difficult and expensive to do and makes for a much less robust product, so very few pursue it, to say the least. Whether you believe the claims or can hear the difference or not is another matter, but in any case it has nothing to do with the grosser aspects of grounding, shielding, impedance, etc...
Old 21st June 2014
  #96
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Directionality is usually claimed to have to do with the crystal lattice orientation of the molecules, enhanced by certain manufacturing methods, nothing to do with grounding issues or impedance. From what I understand, the way the wire is cast and drawn is claimed to be able to make things more or less directional depending. When more directional, the orientation makes more of a difference than when not optimized for directionality. Another main issue in high end cable design is dielectric quality and quantity. Dielectric quality is a fairly well known phenomenon, Teflon and polypropylene being preferred to the much cheaper and more common PVC, which is rated very low quality for audio purposes. The quantity and proximity of the dielectric to the conductor is something that is another thing that is typically not prioritized in cheap cable, or even most expensive cable, contributing to subtle signal smearing from the insulation "absorbing" a bit of the signal and rereleasing it slightly delayed. Keeping the dielectric very thin and distancing it from the conductor is difficult and expensive to do and makes for a much less robust product, so very few pursue it, to say the least. Whether you believe the claims or can hear the difference or not is another matter, but in any case it has nothing to do with the grosser aspects of grounding, shielding, impedance, etc...
The irony being that the current spends as much time travelling from destination to source as from source to destination, it's an AC signal.

So if a cable were truly directional, it would always be connected the wrong way round half of the time.
Old 21st June 2014
  #97
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FabienTDR's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Directionality is usually claimed to have to do with the crystal lattice orientation of the molecules, enhanced by certain manufacturing methods, nothing to do with grounding issues or impedance. From what I understand, the way the wire is cast and drawn is claimed to be able to make things more or less directional depending. When more directional, the orientation makes more of a difference than when not optimized for directionality.
Mhh.. does it mean that "high-end" cables are made to saturate the signal? Emphasizing whatever direction in an AC signal directly damages the signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Another main issue in high end cable design is dielectric quality and quantity. Dielectric quality is a fairly well known phenomenon, Teflon and polypropylene being preferred to the much cheaper and more common PVC, which is rated very low quality for audio purposes. The quantity and proximity of the dielectric to the conductor is something that is another thing that is typically not prioritized in cheap cable, or even most expensive cable, contributing to subtle signal smearing from the insulation "absorbing" a bit of the signal and rereleasing it slightly delayed. Keeping the dielectric very thin and distancing it from the conductor is difficult and expensive to do and makes for a much less robust product, so very few pursue it, to say the least. Whether you believe the claims or can hear the difference or not is another matter, but in any case it has nothing to do with the grosser aspects of grounding, shielding, impedance, etc...
In this case, what has it to do with? What are the relevant physical aspects for straight forward 1:1 transfer? Are they hidden? To be honest, the paragraph above makes no sense to me.
Old 22nd June 2014
  #98
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Slug1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpusOfTrolls View Post
Directionality in cables is related to the in/out impedances of the equipment in use.
Now that's REALLY interesting. So perhaps cable type is kit type related? Or some kit may require specific cabling, versus other kit that might have other cabling requirements?!?!? Damn that's deep. Especially after a bong hit! So for some kit it won't matter if I use Mogami or RadioShack cables. And then for other kit RadioShack cables may actually be better?!? Damn! Another bong hit! Deep!
Old 22nd June 2014
  #99
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Look at a radio shack directional RCA cable, the choke is on the beginning of it.
Old 22nd June 2014
  #100
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S2udio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpusOfTrolls View Post
Directionality in cables is related to the in/out impedances of the equipment in use.
BS........ you are listening to far to many stupid audiophools


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
And then for other kit RadioShack cables may actually be better?!? Damn! Another bong hit! Deep!
And you should really lay of the weed for a bit
Old 23rd June 2014
  #101
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mirochandler's Avatar
Look, open some of your most expensive equipment and then see which cables do they use.

After that you probably know what you have to do.
Old 23rd June 2014
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Dielectric quality is a fairly well known phenomenon, Teflon and polypropylene being preferred
Teflon is used for its fire/smoke properties where such things matter and certification might even be required.
Quote:
to the much cheaper and more common PVC, which is rated very low quality for audio purposes.
Rated in what way? By whom? What measurements?

All smoke and mirrors. And more smoke than glass heh

(and not "all done with wires." but please note that my mixed metaphors are directional )
Old 23rd June 2014
  #103
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sat159p1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirochandler View Post
Look, open some of your most expensive equipment and then see which cables do they use.

After that you probably know what you have to do.
+1
Old 23rd June 2014
  #104
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S2udio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirochandler View Post
Look, open some of your most expensive equipment and then see which cables do they use.
Thats even if the correct screwdriver can be located ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirochandler View Post
After that you probably know what you have to do.
Doubt it.....as most "modern" equipment internals are 99% cable free .
Old 24th June 2014
  #105
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dcollins's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Directionality is usually claimed to have to do with the crystal lattice orientation of the molecules, enhanced by certain manufacturing methods, nothing to do with grounding issues or impedance. From what I understand, the way the wire is cast and drawn is claimed to be able to make things more or less directional depending. When more directional, the orientation makes more of a difference than when not optimized for directionality. Another main issue in high end cable design is dielectric quality and quantity. Dielectric quality is a fairly well known phenomenon, Teflon and polypropylene being preferred to the much cheaper and more common PVC, which is rated very low quality for audio purposes. The quantity and proximity of the dielectric to the conductor is something that is another thing that is typically not prioritized in cheap cable, or even most expensive cable, contributing to subtle signal smearing from the insulation "absorbing" a bit of the signal and rereleasing it slightly delayed. Keeping the dielectric very thin and distancing it from the conductor is difficult and expensive to do and makes for a much less robust product, so very few pursue it, to say the least. Whether you believe the claims or can hear the difference or not is another matter, but in any case it has nothing to do with the grosser aspects of grounding, shielding, impedance, etc...
Is this from The Onion?
Old 24th June 2014
  #106
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lucey's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by nott View Post
hello!

i own a metric halo uln-8 and use it along with a pair of kh o410.
are there any special "super" cables out for a clean and transparent sound.

or in other words: is there a "high end" standard cable to connect a soundcard with active monitors???

thanks!!!
The main component is the hardware. Great converter, headphone mixer and manager ... and nice pres ... with the character option. It's not the sample rate, it's not the cable, although both make changes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alex-p View Post
hi

i rewire my old studio with George Cardas interconnect,
if i had to do it again i wouldn't think twice, i ll do it.

the golden reference, in between digital device and golden ref between da and amp
and jp-labs between amp and speakers
slowly i was doing the console too with golden ref,

it did make a difference, i don't say a big difference (specially if you look at the price)
but it did make a difference, maybe as much as two different converters
Home
You mentioned it was previously Canare Quad? That one is dark and bloated so it makes sense that you'd hear a change.



-----

These threads for a decade always devolve into a juvenile making fun of those of us who hear cable tone. It's almost like those who don't hear it go on to take it personally, maybe as if we are claiming to hear better, which we are not. Or as if we are flying in the face of science. Or as if it's all marketing and we are somehow idiots for being mislead.

Well I love science and I trust my ears. And there is cable tone, in my chain at least. And in every instrument cable, and every speaker cable. Not always a good tone, some cables sound cold or thin or hard. Others are soft, some are scooped. Most emphasize one aspect or another.

"Whatever works" is where I would like to leave it.

Judging other people's preferences or purchases is pretty arrogant and I'd say stupid considering that you can make a great sounding record with a cheap analog mixer and a lot of skill. We all buy all manner of **** that we don't really need over the years as it suits our path toward working with a musically powerful that has value.

Whatever works for you, works for me.

on the ULN-8 however? Mogami. Keep it simple, thin and easy to work with.
Old 24th June 2014
  #107
Gear Addict
 

Lucey,


Can you tell me what brand cables you use. I respect and value your comments.

Thanks denlig
Old 24th June 2014
  #108
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tekis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Is this from The Onion?
LOL!! But seriously, what cables did the Beatles use?
Old 24th June 2014
  #109
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dcollins's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekis View Post
LOL!! But seriously, what cables did the Beatles use?
Man, I’ve been filtering Lucey for so long that I had to log out to see his post!

I choose everything in my studio by listening, and recently started using the Grimm TPR wire. I thought it sounded maybe 2% clearer than what I had previously used, which was also not exotic or expensive. But it’s all about getting that last few percent, after all. If I had to guess, I’d say the most crazy-expensive wire is probably worse.

Nothing other than neutrality makes any sense to me as far as wire is concerned, and I think trying to build in coloration in the cable is a fools errand.

However, when I read stuff from the Pied Piper, I do tend to take off my listener hat and put on my tech one. All the technical claims like the “crystal lattice directionality” and “dielectric smearing” are completely bogus - they would be trivial to demonstrate if they existed in audio.... Only in audiophile world are these things anything but April Fools jokes.

And yes, of course, all great-sounding records were made with whatever PVC insulated, non-directional, ‘three nines’ Copper wire was lying around.


DC
Old 24th June 2014
  #110
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karumba's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
I choose everything in my studio by listening, and recently started using the Grimm TPR wire. I thought it sounded maybe 2% clearer than what I had previously used, which was also not exotic or expensive.
i couldn't find any technical specs for the TPR. do you have any technical explanation that the grimm wire sounds better? i always like to also confirm what i heard from the technical perspective (with the "technical hat on"). sometimes its not possible, but in case of cables i guess it is.
Old 24th June 2014
  #111
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Today I received my new Gotham starquad cable, with individually shielded conductors:

Gotham Kabel AG | NEW 11301 GAC-4/1 Ultra pro Hi-End

I am still waiting for the corresponding Neutrik accessories, as the cable is too thick for the standard XLRs...

I will report back if there is any difference with the standard starquad.
I hope it comes closer to my highend and much too expensive solid core interconnects.

But all this is not important, as there are no differences anyway.
Old 24th June 2014
  #112
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Man, I’ve been filtering Lucey for so long that I had to log out to see his post!

I choose everything in my studio by listening, and recently started using the Grimm TPR wire. I thought it sounded maybe 2% clearer than what I had previously used, which was also not exotic or expensive. But it’s all about getting that last few percent, after all. If I had to guess, I’d say the most crazy-expensive wire is probably worse.

Nothing other than neutrality makes any sense to me as far as wire is concerned, and I think trying to build in coloration in the cable is a fools errand.

However, when I read stuff from the Pied Piper, I do tend to take off my listener hat and put on my tech one. All the technical claims like the “crystal lattice directionality” and “dielectric smearing” are completely bogus - they would be trivial to demonstrate if they existed in audio.... Only in audiophile world are these things anything but April Fools jokes.

And yes, of course, all great-sounding records were made with whatever PVC insulated, non-directional, ‘three nines’ Copper wire was lying around.


DC
I think Grimm's blurb is quite enlightening, if you read between the lines.

Firstly I'll say that Bruno Putzeys is an angineer I have a great deal of respect for, both for his skills and knowledge, and for his honesty.

Now if you look at Grimm's blurb on its cables, the only claims Grimm make for superiority are in measurable factors, microphonics and RF immunity. The most they'll claim about the sound is "TPR delivers the most natural and least coloured transfer available. " which actually could mean it sounds just as natural and un-coloured as everything else.

They leave any claims of it being sonically superior (beyond the measurable factors such as RF immunity) to customer quotes.

I trust in their technical claims because I trust Bruno, but equally I trust that if there were further technical claims that could be made, they would be making them.
Old 24th June 2014
  #113
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JP__'s Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by karumba View Post
i couldn't find any technical specs for the TPR. do you have any technical explanation that the wire sounds better? i always like to also confirm what i heard from the technical perspective (with the "technical hat on"). sometimes its not possible, but in case of cables i guess it is.
Jan, have a look:
http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/asset...pr_leaflet.pdf


funny what the quote makes out of the word g r i m m....
Old 24th June 2014
  #114
Quote:
Originally Posted by nott View Post
ok - any experiences on "how different" could cables sound.
I love this topic. On the one hand you have people who will reference articles that mention a group of people couldn't discern between a coat hanger and a monster cable, and the other camp insists upon having good quality cable.

Until lately, I have had a foot in both camps, not really feeling like there was a large difference between say a Mogami cable vs. your common Rapco / livewire / yet I always built my interconnects out of Mogami with Neutrik gold hardware connectors.

Now I'm leaning more towards cables making a huge difference, and it was a guitar cable swapping that really made me a believer (or at least, a person willing to defend the notion that there are audible differences in cables).

I rewired my guitar pedal board with Canare GS-6, where previously I was using Mogami 2524. I play a 410 HotRod Deville, and my primary Axe is a Tele.

After plugging in my guitar and playing, I immediately noticed the high end was ripping my ears off. It wasn't sounding like that with the Mogami, and there's a big difference between the shield the Mogami has VS. the thicker PITA to build with braid the Canare is equipped with.

I can't say who at Mogami verified this, but they did tell me the Canare is a brighter sounding cable, and it's due to the shield.

Not all cables are created equal, but I still think the uber high end cables are snake oil.

+1 on the Van Damme cable
Old 24th June 2014
  #115
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Man, I’ve been filtering Lucey for so long that I had to log out to see his post!

I choose everything in my studio by listening, and recently started using the Grimm TPR wire. I thought it sounded maybe 2% clearer than what I had previously used, which was also not exotic or expensive. But it’s all about getting that last few percent, after all. If I had to guess, I’d say the most crazy-expensive wire is probably worse.

Nothing other than neutrality makes any sense to me as far as wire is concerned, and I think trying to build in coloration in the cable is a fools errand.

However, when I read stuff from the Pied Piper, I do tend to take off my listener hat and put on my tech one. All the technical claims like the “crystal lattice directionality” and “dielectric smearing” are completely bogus - they would be trivial to demonstrate if they existed in audio.... Only in audiophile world are these things anything but April Fools jokes.

And yes, of course, all great-sounding records were made with whatever PVC insulated, non-directional, ‘three nines’ Copper wire was lying around.


DC
Perhaps you should also put on your tech hat in terms of reading comprehension. My point was in response to posts that were confusing the grosser issues of shielding etc from the completely separate issues of directionality and dielectric quality and geometry which are what are typically cited as significant in differentiating high end cables beyond the basics, regardless of whether you believe the theory.

I am completely with you re: pursuing simple neutrality in cables, though I would add ultimate transparency to that, which is where "that last few percent" comes in. And for the record, whereas there are some respectable reasons for some of the cables out there to command the prices they do, there is no question in my mind that many are inflated beyond any recognition of sanity. I know some of the people involved in audiophile cable design and some of them are highly educated scientists with unquestionable integrity and credentials. Some clearly are not...

The oft cited idea that so many great records were made with mediocre cables couldn't be less relevant to the discussion of whether cable can make a difference. Of course great music and records of it can be made with mediocre equipment. This has nothing to do with whether the sound could be made incrementally different in any number of ways. The fact that you bring that point up is very telling.

Regardless, Mr. Collins, with all due respect for your knowledge and accomplishments, is it really necessary to vent such attitude towards well intentioned intelligent people? You essentially make what could be a respectful discussion a personal ridicule fest. Obviously you see nothing wrong with that. Sad... Lucey's post hit your nail on the head. No wonder you filter him.
Old 24th June 2014
  #116
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
My experiences with cables have been:

1. The most powerful power conditioner by far is simply plugging all of the audio gear into the same outlet using the heaviest duty adaptor/power strip I could find.

2. Tightening all AC connections in the building including the service connection makes most cable differences go away.

3. Digital audio connections can create ground loops. As a result transformers or just unshielded AES/EBU connections can make a surprising difference in sound.

4. Plugging and unplugging a cable several times can clean the connecter and improve the sound.

5. Shielded AC cables can make a surprising difference.

6. All of this speaks volumes about how crappy the power supply and grounding design is in a lot of common audio gear. A lot of energy gets wasted on blaming the messenger vs. mystical fantasies when the rage really ought to be directed at audio manufacturer incompetency.
Old 24th June 2014
  #117
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dcollins's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Perhaps you should also put on your tech hat in terms of reading comprehension. My point was in response to posts that were confusing the grosser issues of shielding etc from the completely separate issues of directionality and dielectric quality and geometry which are what are typically cited as significant in differentiating high end cables beyond the basics, regardless of whether you believe the theory.
Well, then let me emphasize that the factors you are claiming (viz. directionality) don’t exist at all. At all.

If you want to pursue a “faith-based” belief system about cables, have at it. But I also want to remind people that what you are saying about the physics in cables is either incorrect, or flatly impossible. Sure, cables can sound different, but it’s not from “micro-diodes” or whatever audiophile twaddle some guy to sell overpriced wire.


Quote:
Regardless, Mr. Collins, with all due respect for your knowledge and accomplishments, is it really necessary to vent such attitude towards well intentioned intelligent people? You essentially make what could be a respectful discussion a personal ridicule fest. Obviously you see nothing wrong with that. Sad... Lucey's post hit your nail on the head. No wonder you filter him.
Because I don’t like mis-information. Especially when presented in a pseudo-scientific way.


DC
Old 24th June 2014
  #118
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karumba's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
thanks! reading the specs the capacitance is on the lower end with 37pF (e.g. cordial are more in a 70-90 range), but resitance seems quite "high" with 0.19ohm/m (which seems typical for low capacitance cables, i.e. it is the same for sommer or belden), where cordial e.g. has < 0.1ohm/m.

anyway, the cutoff frequency of the 6dB lowpass of both cables is in the MHz region (assuming line levels and "normal impedance gear", so no microphones or guitars) for, lets say 10m.

i'm not sure if microphonics has any significance in a mastering studio environment where cables are basically never moved.

i've studied electrical engineering, but i've never heard of directionality in cables (even not for HF-signals in the GHz range) - are there any serious references?
the skin effect is also negligible for the bandwidth of audio signals.

Quote:
funny what the quote makes out of the word g r i m m.... grimm
:lol:
:-) i had to disable the smilies to let the grimm disappear.
Old 24th June 2014
  #119
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Well, then let me emphasize that the factors you are claiming (viz. directionality) don’t exist at all. At all.

If you want to pursue a “faith-based” belief system about cables, have at it. But I also want to remind people that what you are saying about the physics in cables is either incorrect, or flatly impossible. Sure, cables can sound different, but it’s not from “micro-diodes” or whatever audiophile twaddle some guy to sell overpriced wire.




Because I don’t like mis-information. Especially when presented in a pseudo-scientific way.


DC
Understood. But you missed my point again that I wasn't even making a case for it. I was just pointing out that the claims are not related to what the poster that I was responding to was talking about. I'm not foolish enough to try to argue whether it's true or not. Just trying to clarify that particular issue.

Edit: The only other point that was trying to make is that at least in the case of a number of cable designers that I personally know, they are highly educated and believe their theories, and are definitely NOT jaded snake oil salesmen. Though I also know for a fact that there are those that are.
Old 24th June 2014
  #120
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DSD_Mastering's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
I choose everything in my studio by listening, and recently started using the Grimm TPR wire. I thought it sounded maybe 2% clearer than what I had previously used, DC
Have fun with those Audiophile Grimm cables mate....
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