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High End Cables
Old 2nd October 2015
  #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverking View Post
Does your post contribute anything to the thread?

Of course it doesn't. You're dribbling on about being clever while being clever yourself.

Register an opinion, contribute something of value, or think about removing yourself from the conversation.

I've made my position clear, cable voodoo is a bunch of crap ... now, do you have anything of value to add, or will you just be tossing off the one liners in hope of being seen as a clever fellow yourself?
Here's something of value; You take two devices, each with their inherent impedance values, and a cable, also with an impedance. You connect them. They interact.

If you change the impedance on the cable (i.e. use a different one), do you think the result remains the same? It doesn't. It sounds different. Whether better or not depends on the system as a whole and how they specifically interact. Some tools interact more than others. Oh, and subjective preference of course.

A very simplified example of neither snake oil nor 'absolutely nothing', just what happens. Whether subjectively ideal performance in any rig is related to price of cable is another topic and I would say not directly.
Old 2nd October 2015
  #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
If you change the impedance on the cable (i.e. use a different one), do you think the result remains the same? It doesn't. It sounds different.

Just because transfer function has changed it does not mean it sounds different.

You know that and only had a "bad typing day" right? :-)

Poor analogy:

If you lift a 50kg weight from the floor and I add 0.001gr to it, the weight has changed but you will never feel that becasue it's under your radar.

Yes, sometimes a change of interfacing impedances will cause a big enough effect to be perceived with the ears but that does not equal "any technical change means different sound".
Old 2nd October 2015
  #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post

Yes, sometimes a change of interfacing impedances will cause a big enough effect to be perceived with the ears but that does not equal "any technical change means different sound".
No it doesn't. As it depends on the boxes on both ends of the cable. As I said, with some there will be more change than with others. Point being, there is potential for noticeably different sounds.
Old 3rd October 2015
  #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
You take two devices, each with their inherent impedance values, and a cable, also with an impedance. You connect them. They interact.
Absolutely, but the discussion currently taking place revolves around "hi-end" cables and their apparent effect on audio quality.
If you want to turn it into a discussion about impedance, you should probably start another thread.

Most who post here understand impedance.

So we can agree then, that impedance is a completely different topic that the subject of "hi-end" audio cable voodoo, impedance being related to mathematics and physics, and cable voodoo being related to marketing, and those who are impacted by marketing?
Old 3rd October 2015
  #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverking View Post
Absolutely, but the discussion currently taking place revolves around "hi-end" cables and their apparent effect on audio quality.
If you want to turn it into a discussion about impedance, you should probably start another thread.

Most who post here understand impedance.

So we can agree then, that impedance is a completely different topic that the subject of "hi-end" audio cable voodoo, impedance being related to mathematics and physics, and cable voodoo being related to marketing, and those who are impacted by marketing?
Impedance is one parameter. We can indeed agree on the fact that money and performance are not directly related, as I mentioned earlier.
Old 4th October 2015
  #426
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It's a given then, that a piece of 8' Belden cable with a specific impedance and gauge costing $3.00 will perform exactly the same from a sonic perspective as a piece of 8' "Super" cable of an identical impedance and gauge costing $1000.00?

Each cable has identical terminations in our example above.
Old 4th October 2015
  #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverking View Post
It's a given then, that a piece of 8' Belden cable with a specific impedance and gauge costing $3.00 will perform exactly the same from a sonic perspective as a piece of 8' "Super" cable of an identical impedance and gauge costing $1000.00?
Nope.
Old 4th October 2015
  #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Nope.
Another empty one-liner ... I'd hoped for more.

You've been impacted by the marketing efforts of high-end cable manufacturers, which is fine of course.

Reality is completely different though, an important observation in a forum of professional audio types.

The internet is loaded with Hi-Fi forums that spread incorrect information, no real reason to do it in a forum that (presumably) should know better.
Old 4th October 2015
  #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverking View Post
Another empty one-liner ... I'd hoped for more.

You've been impacted by the marketing efforts of high-end cable manufacturers, which is fine of course.

Reality is completely different though, an important observation in a forum of professional audio types.

The internet is loaded with Hi-Fi forums that spread incorrect information, no real reason to do it in a forum that (presumably) should know better.
You have no idea what 'I have been impacted' by. I'll tell you, I generally let my ears 'impact me' and go from there. I entered the thread pointing out that there are differences in quality and results with cables (using impedance as one parameter responsible for them, albeit not the only one), as you stormed in like an elephant proclaiming the cable thing was all bollocks. Believe what you want. Next you'll of course be telling me I am 'suffering' expectation bias.

This forum used to be full of 'professional audio types'. You strike me more like the Gearslutz 2015 type. Have a nice thread, I am done here.
Old 4th October 2015
  #430
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I hadn't realized that you'd entered the thread to inform everybody else "how it is" with regards to cables.
That approach fails to take into account the fact that this isn't your blog, and there will ALWAYS be another viewpoint, and another poster to express it.
ABX testing has never supported the assertions you're making, and it seems safe to posit that ABX testing never will.

As for your comments re: "Professional Audio Types" ... pros don't generally fall for cable voodoo, and I don't know what a "Gearslutz 2015" type is.

The "cable thing" is all bollocks, if indeed you're trying to equate the use of overtly expensive cables as a positive factor in an effort to improve the audio to ones ears.

Certainly the $1000.00 cables look very nice, and are usually vey well built ... but alas, none of that has anything to do with how they sound, nor will it ever.
Old 5th October 2015
  #431
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Brian Lucey, who clearly has one of the best sounding mastering chains in the world, and I am sure his ears are fairly decent as well (cough), comes into this thread and essentially says that cables do matter despite the specs, and you anonymous, no name knuckleheads are going to continue to BS on GSlutz about how ABX proves a coat hanger or Hosa is no worse than Vovox or Evidence?
Old 5th October 2015
  #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr3 View Post
Brian Lucey, who clearly has one of the best sounding mastering chains in the world, and I am sure his ears are fairly decent as well (cough), comes into this thread and essentially says that cables do matter despite the specs, and you anonymous, no name knuckleheads are going to continue to BS on GSlutz about how ABX proves a coat hanger or Hosa is no worse than Vovox or Evidence?
Old 5th October 2015
  #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr3 View Post
Brian Lucey, who clearly has one of the best sounding mastering chains in the world, and I am sure his ears are fairly decent as well (cough), comes into this thread and essentially says that cables do matter despite the specs, and you anonymous, no name knuckleheads are going to continue to BS on GSlutz about how ABX proves a coat hanger or Hosa is no worse than Vovox or Evidence?
Authority worship is seldom a nourishing ingredient in a constructive discussion.

Did you visit his room?
Did you go with him to the audiologist?
Did you participate in a controlled test where a positive stastistical outomce was the result?

In contrast to most "tests" used to prove this or that, confirmation bias is blind (as in blind to the person doing the test, authority or not).

Last edited by Audiop; 6th October 2015 at 10:26 PM.. Reason: Bad spelling day..
Old 6th October 2015
  #434
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Simplicity

It's so simple.

I have a mastering console, I can simply make a loop of the cable I want to hear. Then I can hear in real time, the sound/ and the sound coming back from the cable.

I know then what the cable do, how it degrades the signal.

When you can hear that, you don't need any comment of anyone about cables because you hear what it does.

Some people come here to listen and the experience tell them the reality.
Old 6th October 2015
  #435
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Watch the cops, priko...
Its all perception bias. All.
In reality you cant trust your ears, never.
Im wondering how any work in sound can be considered as 'better'? We are all fooled by ourselfs, everytime, anywhere. The client, the engineer, the listener...

I think I quit my job and hire in an apple store. Cause thats for sure; the next apple is always better than the predecessor. No need to even have a look at it...
Old 6th October 2015
  #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
Watch the cops, priko...
Its all perception bias. All.
In reality you cant trust your ears, never.
Im wondering how any work in sound can be considered as 'better'? We are all fooled by ourselfs, everytime, anywhere. The client, the engineer, the listener...

I think I quit my job and hire in an apple store. Cause thats for sure; the next apple is always better than the predecessor. No need to even have a look at it...
Old 6th October 2015
  #437
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I follow you JP

Last edited by priko; 6th October 2015 at 11:56 AM.. Reason: understanding
Old 6th October 2015
  #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by priko View Post
It's so simple.

I have a mastering console, I can simply make a loop of the cable I want to hear. Then I can hear in real time, the sound/ and the sound coming back from the cable.

I know then what the cable do, how it degrades the signal.

When you can hear that, you don't need any comment of anyone about cables because you hear what it does.

Some people come here to listen and the experience tell them the reality.
Sure, but why not record some snippets and share the results?
Old 6th October 2015
  #439
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That must be why mastering is so colored and slammed today.
That is the only way to rule out perception bias.

Make the difference big enough

One of these days I am going to repeat my cable tests using REW and repost the results, making sure everything is sub-sample time aligned, no clocks drifting etc. (as it was last time, but because there was a shadow of a doubt possible, my results were completely ignored. The general conclusion was, while I showed results, they were to small to be heard )

If you are interested, you can search the thread.
Old 6th October 2015
  #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Sure, but why not record some snippets and share the results?
I have nothing to prove. Make your own tests.
Old 6th October 2015
  #441
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Verified Member
I already linked at least one test. But this one was to technical faulty for the science boys, I think.
Old 6th October 2015
  #442
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So, I took a closer look at the files posted by JP__


First of all, they all have different start offsets, different lengths and pretty weird creation/editing timestamps.

These 3 totally unnecessary issues already tell us a few things:

Their setup must have been very "manual". They definitely did not record all files in the same manner. Otherwise, creation dates would have been equal, as well as file lengths and offsets. But now, files are completely unaligned (making it impossible to compare via nulling), they have different lengths (making any RMS measurement very difficult) and they did not record at the same time, so it's well probable that the playback/recording did not have equal environmental conditions across all test runs (temp for the most part).

Seriously, these guys attempted to capture pretty small difference between cable, they knew it would be about details. Why on hell do they act like 4 year old monkeys? It's actually much more difficult and time-consuming to record the way they did, than doing it right!


In any way, I spent the last 2 hours analysing every file. It's Wavelab's loudness analysis, as this doesn't depend on exact peak values and file length.

Here are the results:



I highlighted the most relevant differences.

We have very similar figures, with the exception of 2 very probable operator errors. Seeing all these, this is a particularly weak test-setup, as if they wanted to provoke "miss-readings".

Sound wise, I can't find any relevant differences except for the 2 "very red" cases above.


It's not fruitful trying to falsify esoterica. Most reasonable ppl would insist on the other way around: Prove something first before asking the world to falsify your idea.

Otherwise, give me back the 7777€ you stole from me last week. Prove that you didn't or give me back my money. Now!
Old 6th October 2015
  #443
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teebaum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
So, I took a closer look at the files posted by JP__


First of all, they all have different start offsets, different lengths and pretty weird creation/editing timestamps.

These 3 totally unnecessary issues already tell us a few things:

Their setup must have been very "manual". They definitely did not record all files in the same manner. Otherwise, creation dates would have been equal, as well as file lengths and offsets. But now, files are completely unaligned (making it impossible to compare via nulling), they have different lengths (making any RMS measurement very difficult) and they did not record at the same time, so it's well probable that the playback/recording did not have equal environmental conditions across all test runs (temp for the most part).

Seriously, these guys attempted to capture pretty small difference between cable, they knew it would be about details. Why on hell do they act like 4 year old monkeys? It's actually much more difficult and time-consuming to record the way they did, than doing it right!


In any way, I spent the last 2 hours analysing every file. It's Wavelab's loudness analysis, as this doesn't depend on exact peak values and file length.

Here are the results:



I highlighted the most relevant differences.

We have very similar figures, with the exception of 2 very probable operator errors. Seeing all these, this is a particularly weak test-setup, as if they wanted to provoke "miss-readings".

Sound wise, I can't find any relevant differences except for the 2 "very red" cases above.


It's not fruitful trying to falsify esoterica. Most reasonable ppl would insist on the other way around: Prove something first before asking the world to falsify your idea.

Otherwise, give me back the 7777€ you stole from me last week. Prove that you didn't or give me back my money. Now!
thank you!
that prove my experience - use a proper cable and care about the really important things.
Old 6th October 2015
  #444
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
So, I took a closer look at the files posted by JP__


First of all, they all have different start offsets, different lengths and pretty weird creation/editing timestamps.

These 3 totally unnecessary issues already tell us a few things:

Their setup must have been very "manual". They definitely did not record all files in the same manner. Otherwise, creation dates would have been equal, as well as file lengths and offsets. But now, files are completely unaligned (making it impossible to compare via nulling), they have different lengths (making any RMS measurement very difficult) and they did not record at the same time, so it's well probable that the playback/recording did not have equal environmental conditions across all test runs (temp for the most part).

Seriously, these guys attempted to capture pretty small difference between cable, they knew it would be about details. Why on hell do they act like 4 year old monkeys? It's actually much more difficult and time-consuming to record the way they did, than doing it right!
I think it was clear that this is not a bulletproof science test, but it exists in the www and you asked for it. If you are able to make it better, please do so.


Quote:
In any way, I spent the last 2 hours analysing every file. It's Wavelab's loudness analysis, as this doesn't depend on exact peak values and file length.
what should your results point at? To be true I hoped for more from you.


Quote:
Sound wise, I can't find any relevant differences except for the 2 "very red" cases above.
ok, this is something I can work with. There are differences, but they are out of your personal relevance. This is a result most ppl here will agree with, I think. Thank you for your time.
Im glad we finally come to a meaningful result.
Old 6th October 2015
  #445
Cables do sound different from each other...very different, in think in some cases they can, and in most cases no. You have to factor in the entire chain when talking about this aspect of a rig. One weak link in the chain could nix any noticeable change from one set to the other. I talked at length with Greg Calbi about some of his choices for patch cables. He felt that some gave him different sonic weight or frequency response to put it laymen. I tend to agree, not because he's a rock-star in the field, because I've personally heard the difference. Most of the time the differences are subtle. But you guys know very often that the steps in mastering tend to be subtle ones...a little here a little there till we hit the songs potential. So why so suddenly there has to be this profound difference in cable to cable...because of money? Personally speaking I don't care if someone tells me that I'm being naive, I let the end results, happy clients, sales, and airplay do the walking and the talking. If I thought I could get things done with cheap Hosa cables, I would have been there done that. And if I can afford thousands on a particular brand that makes my work feel and sound the way that I want it to, f**k yeah.
Old 6th October 2015
  #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
what should your results point at? To be true I hoped for more from you.
They main problem is the test material which is hard to compare technically.

With proper alignment, we could have taken a closer look at the differences between files, their nature/distribution, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
ok, this is something I can work with. There are differences, but they are out of your personal relevance. This is a result most ppl here will agree with, I think. Thank you for your time.
Im glad we finally come to a meaningful result.
Well, I'm not really satisfied. I'd like to show differences in linear/nonlinear response, they definitely exist at "some" scale. It would have been interesting to find out their exact scale.


Here's an adequate test signal: http://www.tokyodawn.net/labs/Analyze.wav
Old 6th October 2015
  #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engmix View Post
Cables do sound different from each other...very different
Math, physics, and ABX testing do not support this highly subjective comment.

Of course, being subjective in the first place allows one to think whatever they want to think ... but that doesn't mean what they believe is at all factual.

Beyond the above issues related to cable "sound", one has to address the simple observation that disparate folks, all with highly trained ears, divide into two camps.

There are those with highly trained ears who hear a difference in cables.
There are those with highly trained ears who don't hear a difference in cables.

The notion of perception bias doesn't really translate to the negative, and those who hear no difference in sound between cable are supported by the science, and by repeated ABX testing.

However the notion of perception bias when one has just spent $5000.00 on cables is one that has to be seriously considered ... regardless of which camp one is in.

If it was cut and dried, we'd all be hearing the exact same thing, and that's not happening.

I'm trying to be polite, but cutting to the chase ... those who "hear" better audio as a result of inserting very expensive cables into their chain are victims of aggressive marketing, a desire to be perceived as "unique" and wildly uncontrollable perception bias.

Last edited by silverking; 6th October 2015 at 10:05 PM..
Old 6th October 2015
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by priko View Post
I have nothing to prove. Make your own tests.
Of course you don't have to prove anything, I just asked if you possibly could share some files so I can listen to what you listened to.

I've done tests and also shared some on this site and at other places.

I know that a in most, but not all situations, a sane design will be free from audible errors, therefore I am interested in people that actually hear clear colorations/differences. I want to listen to THAT, the same as you did in order to understand what you hear.

After I have listened and measured I analyse and seek for an explanation if there is a detectable difference.

This is the only way forward gaining personal and collective understanding of things.

Obviously you don't have to participate in that work if you don't want to.

If there's an actual difference and "you" hear that it's totally fine not spending a second thinking about why there is a difference. I want to learn and understand though. Forsome reason some people are provoked by that..
Old 6th October 2015
  #449
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It's all about how the wire's impedance affects different hardware including the system grounding and RFI. You can't legitimately consider wire outside of a complete system. I've heard pretty shocking differences in some situations and none at all in others.

Europe also has far superior AC distribution and wiring than a lot of the U.S. because our infrastructure from the early 20th century wasn't replaced in the late '40s like Europe's was.
Old 6th October 2015
  #450
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverking View Post
Math, physics, and ABX testing do not support this highly subjective comment.

Of course, being subjective in the first place allows one to think whatever they want to think ... but that doesn't mean what they believe is at all factual.

Beyond the above issues related to cable "sound", one has to address the simple observation that disparate folks, all with highly trained ears, divide into two camps.

There are those with highly trained ears who hear a difference in cables.
There are those with highly trained ears who don't hear a difference in cables.

The notion of perception bias doesn't really translate to the negative, and those who hear no difference in sound between cable are supported by the science, and by repeated ABX testing.

However the notion of perception bias when one has just spent $5000.00 on cables is one that has to be seriously considered ... regardless of which camp one is in.

If it was cut and dried, we'd all be hearing the exact same thing, and that's not happening.

I'm trying to be polite, but cutting to the chase ... those who "hear" better audio as a result of inserting very expensive cables into their chain are victims of aggressive marketing, a desire to be perceived as "unique" and wildly uncontrollable perception bias.
I remember the times when I was assisting and eventually working at a commercial studio and the studio would have this very reputable tech come by twice a year or so to tune the room. He had his various tools and would send pink and white noise through the mains etc... I can vividly remember at the end of all of the technical aspects of the tuning, there was fine tuning via ear based perspectives. Essentially playing back well known mixes from various in house sessions, and other commercial releases and further tweaking from there. I remember being struck by the fact that technical readouts (don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in science) only gets you so far when related to audio. The tools (such as meters) simply cannot account for certain aspects of human hearing and perception, and under certain circumstances surely the other way around, technically speaking. It's like being color blind or having 20/30 vision, or extremely acute sense of smell or hearing, or even those who swear they see and hear dead people. Who is anyone to discount the perceptions that someone is born with, even when totally speaking off the deep end. Sometimes this stuff is simply over one's head. I can't tell you how many time I've been in sessions where I have said to the producer "do you hear that xyz" and they're just deer in the headlights kinda starring into space. As engineers I tend to think after a good 10 - 20 years of critical listening we tend to know what we're hearing, verses seeing such as suggested with advertising.

Sure, some advertising is sensational, that's it's whole point. But again, as educated tech's we're in the know to not purchase things because someone says it's the best thing since Star Wars. In fact, personally speaking when an audio company tells me that they developed a new xzy and it's so good that your mixes will sound as good as bla bla, I question it even more. And whether something is priced high, let's say $5,000 speaker cables or as low as $100 speaker cables, no matter what it comes down to hearing is believing, and demoing against other products. In the end it's really the only way to know. And if you're not playing games with yourself then you'll figure out the proper end result. I personally think that "perception bias" comes from a lack of knowledge, experience in a given field, and immaturity. I can truly accept that you don't hear the difference between cables, that certainly doesn't mean that I or many others don't. You're not telling me because you're armed with certain specs that you're the end of the line when it comes to this debate?

If I feel that I can make x-amount of dollars annually, to the point of where the speaker cables are paid for in a reasonable amount of time, and the clients are happy, the work is flowing, and the charts are responding, to me that's five grand of well spent money. Isn't that one of the things that success allows us to enjoy, toys and tools that sometimes expensive and helps keeps us at the top of our game. YMMV
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