Vinyl cut simulation plug in?
Old 19th December 2012
  #1
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Vinyl cut simulation plug in?

Not aware if one exists and not sure if it would be pie in the sky, just an off the cuff thought inspired by a post elsewhere. Loads of variables and problems to model I suppose makes it difficult but the idea interests me.

I could imagine it would flash a skip light if the bass was way out of phase and a red light for excessive sibilance/ excessive 15kHz + could have 3 modes, report issues mode, correct mode and simulated cut mode with simulated skips and static/comparative impulses of a various genres in digital and then "off vinyl" which you can apply for various genres. (and of course a Neumann lathe electronic signal path modelling)

And of course a select lathe engineer mode, lol.

I know ultimately we hear these things and act but it was like a parallel to an RTA for vinyl + the ability to add lathe/playback character. Any thoughts/input ?

If you listen carefully you can hear Steven Slates brain cogs turning......
Old 19th December 2012
  #2
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vinyl cutting is program dependent. The dynamic and eq also depends on record lenght....so....no plugin can exist

Inviato dal mio GT-S5830i usando Tapatalk
Old 19th December 2012
  #3
Gear nut
 

I don think it exists
and it can be very complicated to do it because of the reading system ... sound changes a lot between 2 different set up , probvlems are not the same with a 20 min side and a 7 min side etc etc ... so ... not so easy to do a right simulation ..
Old 19th December 2012
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Old 19th December 2012
  #5
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Ok thought it might be too complex/variable for a plug in but sprang to mind nonetheless.
I would have thought the dynamic response could be modelled, not saying it would be easy.

Sure was aware of the Sknote plug but thanks anyway.
Old 19th December 2012
  #6
Old 19th December 2012
  #7
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Didn't GZ develop some software that simulates the cut?

I'm sure it was just for their own use, but perhaps talk to them.
Maybe they would be up for licensing it.

Not sure if the huy from GZ posts here any more, but their website is easy enough to find!
About GZ | Vinyl |
Old 19th December 2012
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huejahfink View Post
Didn't GZ develop some software that simulates the cut?
link New mastering | Products | Vinyl |

Been wanting to send them pre-emphasized audio to cut directly for a while now.
Old 19th December 2012
  #9
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Old 19th December 2012
  #10
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Vinyl simulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by huejahfink View Post
Didn't GZ develop some software that simulates the cut?

I'm sure it was just for their own use, but perhaps talk to them.
Maybe they would be up for licensing it.

Not sure if the huy from GZ posts here any more, but their website is easy enough to find!
About GZ | Vinyl |
The VMS 82 in the picture already has a feature that allows you to tell the lathe how much land to use so that part of the software is redundant .Cutting vinyl is level dependant versus programme material,it is also worth noting that sometimes the custmer actually wants distortion on a cut.
Old 19th December 2012
  #11
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Distortion is a function of playback. There is no way to precisely predict the playback setup so there is no way to precisely predict distortion. The software could alert you to glaring problems and help set parameters but it can't cut it for you.
Old 20th December 2012
  #12
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Yeah I just thought it was something someone who know their vinyl process inside out might be able to advise a developer and get something ballpark. Not sure if ballpark is very useful tbh but I was merely speaking aloud pretty much immediately after the thought popped into my head.

Nice concept but maybe tricky to implement well.

I will have a look at those bits above for interest sake when time is available, cheers.
Old 20th December 2012
  #13
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GZ's cutting simulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat larry View Post
The VMS 82 in the picture already has a feature that allows you to tell the lathe how much land to use so that part of the software is redundant .Cutting vinyl is level dependant versus programme material,it is also worth noting that sometimes the custmer actually wants distortion on a cut.
Our VMS 82 lathes are modified to be fully controlled by our PC DAWs + software, so the pitch computer and most audio processing unit incl. VCA are done by DAW. We can save 5-10 % of space compared to the Neumann's internal hardware pitch computer - we can cut longer audio with the same cutting levels or a little bit louder records with the same length.
Two pictures from a microscope are attached to show some sinus tests of our pitch computer.
The VMS 70 lathe has been also upgraded so its internal pitch computer is bypassed as well with most functions (not all) can be driven from the DAW.

Also the simulation part of our software has been improved since 2010. The whole groove is created (precalculated) in RAM so we can calculate an exact position of any audio part on the record and the software shows possible cutting or playback problems, exceeding limits, risk of distortion etc. Moreover the cutting stylus simulator was added.

I hope that following videos from November 2012 will play from any IP address:

DMM cutting with our new system + all the other processing parts in GZ
T?žká d?ina III (17) | PrimaPLAY

A separate video showing the cutting stylus simulator only:
T?žká d?ina III (17) - Zápis na vinyly | PrimaPLAY
Attached Images
File Type: png Horizontal_sinus.png (870.4 KB, 934 views) File Type: png Vertical_sinus.png (605.2 KB, 455 views)
Old 24th December 2012
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeZ View Post
Our VMS 82 lathes are modified to be fully controlled by our PC DAWs + software, so the pitch computer and most audio processing unit incl. VCA are done by DAW. We can save 5-10 % of space compared to the Neumann's internal hardware pitch computer - we can cut longer audio with the same cutting levels or a little bit louder records with the same length.
Two pictures from a microscope are attached to show some sinus tests of our pitch computer.
The VMS 70 lathe has been also upgraded so its internal pitch computer is bypassed as well with most functions (not all) can be driven from the DAW.

Also the simulation part of our software has been improved since 2010. The whole groove is created (precalculated) in RAM so we can calculate an exact position of any audio part on the record and the software shows possible cutting or playback problems, exceeding limits, risk of distortion etc. Moreover the cutting stylus simulator was added.

I hope that following videos from November 2012 will play from any IP address:

DMM cutting with our new system + all the other processing parts in GZ
T?žká d?ina III (17) | PrimaPLAY

A separate video showing the cutting stylus simulator only:
T?žká d?ina III (17) - Zápis na vinyly | PrimaPLAY
A 5-10% saving on land is good thing but I do not understand the benefits of the
"Precalculation" Have you developed this for speed? Can you explain in more detail?
Regards
Old 26th December 2012
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeZ View Post
Our VMS 82 lathes are modified to be fully controlled by our PC DAWs + software, so the pitch computer and most audio processing unit incl. VCA are done by DAW. We can save 5-10 % of space compared to the Neumann's internal hardware pitch computer - we can cut longer audio with the same cutting levels or a little bit louder records with the same length.
Two pictures from a microscope are attached to show some sinus tests of our pitch computer.
The VMS 70 lathe has been also upgraded so its internal pitch computer is bypassed as well with most functions (not all) can be driven from the DAW.

Also the simulation part of our software has been improved since 2010. The whole groove is created (precalculated) in RAM so we can calculate an exact position of any audio part on the record and the software shows possible cutting or playback problems, exceeding limits, risk of distortion etc. Moreover the cutting stylus simulator was added.

I hope that following videos from November 2012 will play from any IP address:

DMM cutting with our new system + all the other processing parts in GZ
T?žká d?ina III (17) | PrimaPLAY

A separate video showing the cutting stylus simulator only:
T?žká d?ina III (17) - Zápis na vinyly | PrimaPLAY
nice video...too bad my czech is a bit rusty..would be good to have this in english.
Old 1st January 2013
  #16
Gear nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat larry View Post
A 5-10% saving on land is good thing but I do not understand the benefits of the
"Precalculation" Have you developed this for speed? Can you explain in more detail?
Regards
The mentioned precalculation is important for 1) an optimal space consumption = to know where the cut will end so that we could choose proper cutting levels, width and land parameters and audio filters (EE, HP etc.), 2) to show us diameter-dependent parameters like horizontal and vertical angles and radii (curvatures) of grooves, these parameters affect distortions.

Two years ago we used the cutting simulation (precalculation) as a virtual PC pitch computer resulting in only approximate calculated diameters with an accuracy about 3-5 % and the Neumann's build-in pitch computers were used for real-time cutting. Since 2011 we have been using a software pitch computer included in our mastering software so the precalculated simulated values are almost the same as would be used later for cutting in the real-time mode using the same algorithm, but with actual diameter values measured from the lathe. The accuracy of diameter (calculated X real end diameter) should be only up to 1 % now.
Old 1st January 2013
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeZ View Post
The mentioned precalculation is important for 1) an optimal space consumption = to know where the cut will end so that we could choose proper cutting levels, width and land parameters and audio filters (EE, HP etc.), 2) to show us diameter-dependent parameters like horizontal and vertical angles and radii (curvatures) of grooves, these parameters affect distortions.

Two years ago we used the cutting simulation (precalculation) as a virtual PC pitch computer resulting in only approximate calculated diameters with an accuracy about 3-5 % and the Neumann's build-in pitch computers were used for real-time cutting. Since 2011 we have been using a software pitch computer included in our mastering software so the precalculated simulated values are almost the same as would be used later for cutting in the real-time mode using the same algorithm, but with actual diameter values measured from the lathe. The accuracy of diameter (calculated X real end diameter) should be only up to 1 % now.
That is all good but apart from the increased groove capacity (assuming there are no overcuts)there is nothing listed above that cannot be achieved with your ears,an oscilloscope and or a phase meter and not forgetting the all important test cut and microscope inspection.
Old 1st January 2013
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat larry View Post
That is all good but apart from the increased groove capacity (assuming there are no overcuts)there is nothing listed above that cannot be achieved with your ears,an oscilloscope and or a phase meter and not forgetting the all important test cut and microscope inspection.
Your method is good for a dedicated mastering+cutting engineer in his own studio, but cannot be used for an in-house cutting in a big plant with 40-60 copper plates cut in one day. Ears are good for basic comparison, but it is a very subjective task to decide whether the sound is still acceptable or there is some small distortion/sound color changes which would be unacceptable for a musician/band/singer. The simulation can warn us regarding several basic issues as velocity limits, pinch effect distortion, excesive acceleration etc.

The software was developed mainly for reaching good quality of cuts at the same time with increased productivity of lathes. One group of people (premastering engineers) can spend more time preparing audio sources, simulating cuts and finding optimal cutting parameters while the second group (cutting guys) then focus more on all the cutting process incl. inspecting plates/foils, looking into microscopes etc. It is more of team work...

If you (or anybody interested) plan to visit Prague or any other place in the Czech Republic, it is possible to show our system to you.
Old 1st January 2013
  #19
Gear Head
Hello,

my new discover was P&M Vinylizer.

Very simple, usefull, 6 adjustable parameters and the most important x64.

greetings :-)
Old 1st January 2013
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeZ View Post
Your method is good for a dedicated mastering+cutting engineer in his own studio, but cannot be used for an in-house cutting in a big plant with 40-60 copper plates cut in one day. Ears are good for basic comparison, but it is a very subjective task to decide whether the sound is still acceptable or there is some small distortion/sound color changes which would be unacceptable for a musician/band/singer. The simulation can warn us regarding several basic issues as velocity limits, pinch effect distortion, excesive acceleration etc.

The software was developed mainly for reaching good quality of cuts at the same time with increased productivity of lathes. One group of people (premastering engineers) can spend more time preparing audio sources, simulating cuts and finding optimal cutting parameters while the second group (cutting guys) then focus more on all the cutting process incl. inspecting plates/foils, looking into microscopes etc. It is more of team work...

If you (or anybody interested) plan to visit Prague or any other place in the Czech Republic, it is possible to show our system to you.
Thanks for clearing that up,It makes perfect sense to me now,If I am ever in Prague I will drop you a line as it would be nice to see your system at work.
Old 1st January 2013
  #21
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...if there's one production sound that is so cliche and silly is the 'artificial vinyl click et rest' sound...
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