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Linear phase "pre ringing" audio examples? Equalizer Plugins
Old 5th November 2012
  #1
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Linear phase "pre ringing" audio examples?

Hi everyone, as I wrap my head around the differences between linear phase eq and minimum phase eq I'm looking for online audio examples of the differences between these two tools.

Can anyone point me to some audio examples of pre-ringing when using a linear eq? I've yet to come across any in my searches.

Thank you in advance.
Old 5th November 2012
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis360 View Post
Can anyone point me to some audio examples of pre-ringing when using a linear eq? I've yet to come across any in my searches.

Thank you in advance.
Here you go. One file uses a minimum phase EQ, the other a linear phase (see file names). I made these very obvious, to create a worst case example, using a strong transient snare sound with fairly low frequency cut at narrow Q.
Attached Files

snare_200hz_q20_minus6db_minimum_phase.wav (635.7 KB, 15197 views)

snare_200hz_q20_minus6db_linear_phase.wav (635.7 KB, 19755 views)

Old 5th November 2012
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Hi Robin, that's fantastic, thank you very much. I hear it very clearly.

Do you personally find this to be an issue when working? Do you have a general preference for either type of EQ?
Old 5th November 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis360 View Post
Hi Robin, that's fantastic, thank you very much. I hear it very clearly.

Do you personally find this to be an issue when working? Do you have a general preference for either type of EQ?
The problem of a downbeat creating a "swoosh" leading up to it it is a reasonably rare occurence, but it does happen and is something to watch out for whenever using linear phase EQ. Usually linear phase pre-ringing rather shows itself as a perceived difference in tone, since the pre-ringing is much shorter with higher frequency and broader EQ changes. To me, that different tone, along with a slight perceived softening of transients, is enough to put me off linear phase most of the time.
Old 5th November 2012
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Like 24-96 said, you usually don't get a noticeable RINGING so much as the perception of softened transients. Sometimes a linear phase EQ is just the ticket for a certain problem, particularly in the high end. Most of the time, I stick to minimum phase.
Old 5th November 2012
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For the exact same reasons above, LP in the higher end of the spectrum can be great for bringing out 'inner details' and harmonic textures etc without pushing the main transients in that area so much.
Old 5th November 2012
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Originally Posted by huejahfink View Post
For the exact same reasons above, LP in the higher end of the spectrum can be great for bringing out 'inner details' and harmonic textures etc without pushing the main transients in that area so much.
good point!
you can also benefit in low end, when LP 'distortions' actually can sound good
Old 8th November 2012
  #8
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The temporal distortion of the transient is more significant the lower the frequency. It has a relationship to the Secant function of the unit circle, where time is delayed almost exponentially as a function of frequency. It is best to use as wide Q as possible, and combine with minimum phase EQ for sharper moves.

The LP10 EQ by DDMF has the function to adjust the resonance from minimum to linear to maximum phase, with maximum being equivalent to a TIIR or IIR in reverse. It can set an inbetween, where resonance is biased to either side of the impulse. While I am not fond of FFT processes in general (except analysis), YMMV.

I do agree that it really brings out the details in a very transparent and silky smooth way. In some situations this is exactly what is called for.
Old 8th November 2012
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Just writing so it is in my history.

Sent from my HTC Desire
Old 8th November 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpusOfTrolls View Post
The temporal distortion of the transient is more significant the lower the frequency. It has a relationship to the Secant function of the unit circle, where time is delayed almost exponentially as a function of frequency. It is best to use as wide Q as possible, and combine with minimum phase EQ for sharper moves.
Which makes sharp linear-phase HPF's the worst possible place to apply it.


DC
Old 12th November 2012
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Which makes sharp linear-phase HPF's the worst possible place to apply it.


DC
For mastering, yes. There is no benefit to LP lowcutting unless the material is already loose. Using a sharp LP lowcut on the master is just bad practice.

In sound design, there are not such simple rules. As an in between process with particular treatment afterwards, LP lowcut can make very interesting sounds.
Old 12th November 2012
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Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Which makes sharp linear-phase HPF's the worst possible place to apply it.
The amount of ringing really depends on the signal: whether the signal contains any significant energy at the cutoff frequency of the filter. If the transition band of the filter does not overlap any significant energy in a signal, then a linear-phase HPF is the best choice because it keeps the signal above the cutoff intact. For example, if your signal lies all above 70 Hz and there's a hum at 50 Hz, I would use a linear-phase filter to perfectly separate them, without any phase distortion to the useful signal.
Old 12th November 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexey Lukin View Post
The amount of ringing really depends on the signal: whether the signal contains any significant energy at the cutoff frequency of the filter. If the transition band of the filter does not overlap any significant energy in a signal, then a linear-phase HPF is the best choice because it keeps the signal above the cutoff intact. For example, if your signal lies all above 70 Hz and there's a hum at 50 Hz, I would use a linear-phase filter to perfectly separate them, without any phase distortion to the useful signal.
At any rate, when I have audibly compared these filter families minimum-hase always sounds better to me. At every frequency. It actually seems to do less damage.

Although I haven't tried your system that allows for an in-between phase response to be phase response, which does seems interesting.

DC
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