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Cheapest decent subwoofer for mastering ??? Studio Monitors
Old 23rd July 2012
  #31
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MASSIVE Master's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
do the tyler decade1 need additional subwoofers?
Not IME.

That post was 6 years ago, BTW... And I think the VX10's were around 10 years ago.
Old 23rd July 2012
  #32
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Shawn Hatfield's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
do the tyler decade1 need additional subwoofers?
Nope.
Old 23rd July 2012
  #33
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

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I always offend many people by saying this but my experience of over 30 years using subs has been that you absolutely need two subs and it still doesn't translate nearly as well as full range speakers and no subs.

The proof is adding a single sub to a pair of full range speakers and then switching between the high-passed mains with the sub and full range without. It's no-brainer obvious one would make very different choices with one setup vs. the other.
Old 24th July 2012
  #34
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The facts are simple ; rooms have a fingerprint and are different. Dolby has everyone crossing from woof to Sub woof at 80hz .... what if your room has a resonance there ??? You need to take measurments and learn about your room.

I have a peak resonance that gets excited around 70hz , It shows in a measurement of the woofs alone and the subs alone . The summation of woofs and subs makes matters worse. Since I have the capability ( active crossovers for both drivers ) I underlap at both sides of the resonant frequency, which means the summation of the two doesn't excite the resonance nearly as much as if I didn't underlap. ( active also gave me the choice of crossover slopes too !)

Subs get a bad rap because of a lack of effort to integrate them. If you buy one and just throw it in your room it's a 50/50 proposition.

It's like most things audio ; effort in = degree of positive results
Old 24th July 2012
  #35
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by flatfinger View Post
...Subs get a bad rap because of a lack of effort to integrate them. If you buy one and just throw it in your room it's a 50/50 proposition...
Believe me I worked very hard at integrating them with measurements, a variety of crossover types and frequencies, and everything one would normally try. I could get it to sound really good on anything I played. The problem was getting mixes and masters made using them to sound the same anywhere i played them. My friends in the film industry describe the very same problem. They are useful in editing rooms but big trouble when you try to mix with them.
Old 24th July 2012
  #36
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Adam Dempsey's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The proof is adding a single sub to a pair of full range speakers and then switching between the high-passed mains with the sub and full range without. It's no-brainer obvious one would make very different choices with one setup vs. the other.
I hear what you're saying Bob but why high-pass the main speakers? In my experience a well integrated sub (pair) should work only where the mains drop off (if necessary).

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatfinger View Post
The facts are simple ; rooms have a fingerprint and are different.

Subs get a bad rap because of a lack of effort to integrate them.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
My friends in the film industry describe the very same problem.
I find that a little strange only given that they're inclined to be necessary in that context for a dedicated .1 channel.
Old 24th July 2012
  #37
I find it easier to match subs to sealed box speakers, and I presume it's because the bass roll-off on them is more controlled and slower, whereas ported boxes tend not to have a steady rate of roll-off and the slope is steep once it starts.
Old 24th July 2012
  #38
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Filthrill's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
JL Audio Fathom were the best sounding of the one's we auditioned (including REL & Velodyne). We went with the f112 model.

JL Audio
Great choice. These look really nice. How exactly do u have them crossed over & integrated into your monitoring & what kind of monitors do u have them paired up with?
Old 24th July 2012
  #39
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

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Adam, I've had the same experience of preferring no high pass with mains that go down into the 40s. In order to compare the difference, you need mains that go into the 20s that you high-pass in the 40s with the sub. I've also always used sealed speakers when I could because in my experience they translate better.

The .1 channel is for only low frequency sound effects. Movies are mixed so playback can be 10 dB. off and still "work" across a wide variety of seats in theaters. "Bass management" is what my friends avoid but this requires full range LCR if not 5 or 7 full range speakers plus a room that can support it.
Old 24th July 2012
  #40
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dcollins's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Believe me I worked very hard at integrating them with measurements, a variety of crossover types and frequencies, and everything one would normally try. I could get it to sound really good on anything I played. The problem was getting mixes and masters made using them to sound the same anywhere i played them. My friends in the film industry describe the very same problem. They are useful in editing rooms but big trouble when you try to mix with them.
I certainly have had the same experience with clients masters that were mixed on sub/sat systems. Including hearing it in their mix room and thinking it sounded good - but everywhere else (including my room) it was out of whack.

As always, my advice would be to use a sub only for the very bottom octave (say 30-15Hz) or be very careful about translation.


DC
Old 24th July 2012
  #41
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As you have observed DC, There is probably a tendency for folks to want to "hear" their brand new toy so they set the SW too loud ( Home theater syndrome ) . With my set up I have things so that when you take the subs out the only thing that's noticeable is a less tactile " chest thump" from the kick and bass.

Another problem is that when a designer of a sub for the commercial market makes the inevitable choice between accurate an/or loud, the marketing forces compromises result in high THD ;....cause subs that don't get loud aren't going to please the special effects HT crowd .

Harmonic distortion from subs makes them easy to locate and makes transparent, seamless integration impossible . Most Home recordist don't think spending as much or more on their subs as they did their satellites is kosher.............
Old 25th July 2012
  #42
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Filthrill's Avatar
 

Quick question:

Is there anyone here that's only running 1 sub & not necessarily placed in the center of your monitoring? Or is it safe to say that everyone here is running 2 subs, placed L & R in your room?
Old 25th July 2012
  #43
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Thor's Avatar
 

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Hi Fil,

I have them crossed over at 32Hz, where my mains fall off. They're good to about 18Hz in my room in their current position. The crossover is built into my monitoring console and is customizable, I have it set up so that when I'm working in surround the sub is my .1, and in stereo is augmenting the mains.

Our choice of monitoring is un-tradtitional to say the least (I always preface it with that), but we get great results with what we have, so I can't complain.

The transfer & monitor console we're using is designed by Crispin at Crookwood, and is a really brilliant piece of work. It's grown with us through several expansions and changes, and as his designs and components improve we get a new card to two to replace an older one and everything sounds even better (i.e. more transparent).

Best regards,
Thor


Quote:
Originally Posted by Filthrill View Post
Great choice. These look really nice. How exactly do u have them crossed over & integrated into your monitoring & what kind of monitors do u have them paired up with?
Old 25th July 2012
  #44
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Filthrill's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
Hi Fil,

I have them crossed over at 32Hz, where my mains fall off. They're good to about 18Hz in my room in their current position. The crossover is built into my monitoring console and is customizable, I have it set up so that when I'm working in surround the sub is my .1, and in stereo is augmenting the mains.

Our choice of monitoring is un-tradtitional to say the least (I always preface it with that), but we get great results with what we have, so I can't complain.

The transfer & monitor console we're using is designed by Crispin at Crookwood, and is a really brilliant piece of work. It's grown with us through several expansions and changes, and as his designs and components improve we get a new card to two to replace an older one and everything sounds even better (i.e. more transparent).

Best regards,
Thor
Thanks for sharing Thor. What a beastly console.
Old 27th July 2012
  #45
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JohnnyHo's Avatar
I've got a pair of Tyler D1's too and for most stuff I don't think they need a sub either, as long as your room doesn't interfere with the frq resp and and allows the low frq to develop. That being said, I do a lot of mastering for hiphop and I like having the option to turn a sub on and off (set as out 3 on my Avocet)just to reinforce the extreme bottom- I really like my sealed Rhythmik Audio/GR research servo subs. I think its the same basic system Ty uses for this D1 matched subs. Another cheap option is an Epik Subwoofer- dual opposing 12s or 15s.. those will get you through in a pinch , but I would get an external crossover
Old 19th October 2012
  #46
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
JL Audio Fathom were the best sounding of the one's we auditioned (including REL & Velodyne). We went with the f112 model.

JL Audio
I recently tested out the JL Audio Fathom f113 powered subwoofer and was not impressed by it. It just didn't sound great.

YMMV.
Old 19th October 2012
  #47
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Thor's Avatar
 

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I found the f113 too boomy and simply too much for my room, it wouldn't integrate with the mains. The f112 was a much better match.

Plus, the f113 almost broke my back dragging it up 3 flights of stairs - what a beast!

Thor


Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
I recently tested out the JL Audio Fathom f113 powered subwoofer and was not impressed by it. It just didn't sound great.

YMMV.
Old 20th October 2012
  #48
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Alécio Costa's Avatar
 

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Dynaudio bm14s

Is there anyone here using this?
BM14S
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