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More Room pictures... Studio Monitors
Old 12th June 2006
  #31
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narco
hi bob

I was asking you about lipinskis in the special mastering forum a while back

Mine have since arrived and I love them, they are very natural sounding, not at all hyped like most speakers I have been used to. I am running them with a new 200 watt/ch perreaux amp. I use them mostly for tracking along with some ns-10's.

I'm happy with them without a sub, but occasionaly i get a hip hop artist through, and they generally always ask "have you got a sub" before they even want to look at the studio. Even if they are just doing vocals in an iso booth, lol.

So my question to you is; what frequency do you have your sub crossovers set at, and what is their slope?

I asked lipinski and they said somewhere just above 50 hz would be normal. But I was wondering what you had done anyway.

thanks, nice room btw

narco

Do you have the 707's? Thanks! They're crossed over very sharply at 80 Hz. I let the Lipinskis roll off naturally and the subs are low passed at 24 dB/octave at 80 Hz. You really have to have a very fine resolution time-domain FFT to get this as good as you can, or try the methods I describe at the Digido.com website. But what you miss without using a Melissa or Spectrafoo in transfer funtion mode is the ability to slide the subs around and see their response, and then time align the subs with the mains.

BK
Old 12th June 2006
  #32
Gear Addict
 
rolo95's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
Do you have the 707's? Thanks! They're crossed over very sharply at 80 Hz. I let the Lipinskis roll off naturally and the subs are low passed at 24 dB/octave at 80 Hz. You really have to have a very fine resolution time-domain FFT to get this as good as you can, or try the methods I describe at the Digido.com website. But what you miss without using a Melissa or Spectrafoo in transfer funtion mode is the ability to slide the subs around and see their response, and then time align the subs with the mains.

BK
Bob

is that a PASS LABS x-250 ???
looks awesome... ( and sound too... right ? )

Rolo.
Old 12th June 2006
  #33
Moderator
 
matt thomas's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
Do you have the 707's?
yeah, I have the 707's.

If (when) I get a sub I'll make sure to get a decent fft from somewhere to position it effectively

thanks again
narco
Old 12th June 2006
  #34
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Bob,

> Are you married, Ethan? <

Yes! heh

Actually, my wife Elli is an audiophile in her own right. I met her in the early 80s when I owned a large pro studio and taught recording classes, and she was one of my students.

> That room looks like your sanctum sanctorum! <

You bring up an interesting point. I know many people would consider my room to be "over the top," but what about the GM room below which I'm sure many here have seen?

I see "audiophile" setups with huge tower speakers 6 feet tall, and two or more enormous monoblock toob amps on pedestals, with speaker cables as thick as a garden hose resting on a dozen or more "cable elevators." Yet mention acoustic treatment to these guys and they cringe. Personally, I think a room full of bass traps and panels looks really cool!

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

> What loudspeakers are you using? <

Those are Mackie HR624s, and I also have a top of the line subwoofer SVS in the front left corner. And yes, this room sounds amazing.

--Ethan

Old 12th June 2006
  #35
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Glenn,

> Why did you not straddle the front corners with the traps? <

Bob already has a fair amount of Sonex foam and is happy with the mids and highs exacly as they are. So his goal was to get the maximum bass trapping only, but without affecting higher frequencies any more than necessary.

--Ethan
Old 12th June 2006
  #36
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer
Glenn,

> Why did you not straddle the front corners with the traps? <

Bob already has a fair amount of Sonex foam and is happy with the mids and highs exacly as they are. So his goal was to get the maximum bass trapping only, but without affecting higher frequencies any more than necessary.

--Ethan
But you are giving up low end when mounted direct on the wall. From the picture they are not even spaced off. Are you saying he did not want any of the high end coming in from the back?

Glenn
Old 12th June 2006
  #37
Gear Head
 
Hagen Daaz's Avatar
 

Hi GM, I did some nice and very easy to clean difussors specially for you ......

Old 12th June 2006
  #38
Here for the gear
 
bruhens's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
Note the VERY small footprint of the rack, which is on wheels. It has very little effect on the imaging and depth. Examine the angles and you can see that any path from the tweeter to the rack bounces off angled top of the rack and up towards the 22' high angled ceiling! The Mackie Pro Control is a potential comb-filter to the ear because of its flat surface but not where it is placed. And it is placed on a totally open wooden frame to minimize acoustic interference. I only use it when I get a mixing job (once every few months), and when doing intense work with it I take it off the frame and literally sit it on the couch next to my lap. Then it's "just like home." :-)

The Real Traps Mondo traps are on the walls now, finally. And 3 more behind the curtain, too in a small alcove. Not seen is the rest of the analog and digital gear and tape decks are on the walls or behind in an 8-foot rack or else "virtual" in the computer. On top of the little wooden rack is a flip-up video monitor which also has minimal effect on the audio. I use a wireless keyboard/mouse combo from Belkin.

Behind the couch is the editing station (not seen). Not seen, on the left beside the couch is the TC-6000 Icon remote, the Avocet Remote, and a midi controller to remote control some other gear. I'm heavy on remote controls so as to minimize the acoustic effect of gear in front of me.

Soon to be added is a rack behind the couch and below its "lip" for additional gear, with the knobs pointing up. And a video monitor on the curtains themselves, hopefully good enough to run the computer and play video for synch when necessary. And then comes the surround :_).
Bob,
I can't wait to hear the room now! I thought it sounded amazing before the traps.
Congrats.
Bruce Hensal
Old 13th June 2006
  #39
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo95
Bob

is that a PASS LABS x-250 ???
looks awesome... ( and sound too... right ? )

Rolo.

Yes it is! And it sounds as warm as it feels if you touch those heatsinks. I tried every other recommended amp on earth, including Bryston and the EVO from that digital company and none of them was as robust and "strong" as the Pass. Some of them gave up the ghost or, like the Bryston, sounded a bit too "grainy". But to move up to surround would cost a godly fortune, in electricity as well, so I'm crossing my fingers that the new digital amp designed by Lipinski himself will do the bill. Lipinski designed their amp with the sound of the Pass as a guide.

We shall see! Production models will be out shortly.

BK
Old 13th June 2006
  #40
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by myfipie
But you are giving up low end when mounted direct on the wall. From the picture they are not even spaced off. Are you saying he did not want any of the high end coming in from the back?

Glenn

Good catch, Glenn! I am definitely considering the pros and cons of spacing the traps a bit away from the wall. I'd like Ethan to chime in on that. The purpose of it in my mind would be to increase the efficacy of the bass absorption by increasing the path length a bit and "slowing down" the wave twice, on its way into and back out of the the trap. I I doubt that the additional exposure of the hard wall surface beneath the trap will increase the HF in my room, but I could be wrong. Instead I intend to mount four Auralex space-diffusors on top of the four exposed Mondo Traps, just to get a bit more HF openness back that I lost with the addition of the Mondos.

Perhaps Ethan should make some traps with diffusors on top. Years and years ago an acoustic designer made some trapping in a voiceover booth I was involved in and he covered the tops of the traps with masonite. It did not do the job to my mind, I think Masonite still has significant upper-mid-frequency absoprtion, though I have never seen the curves.
Old 13th June 2006
  #41
Lives for gear
 
Masterer's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
I can't find the thread where guys had posted pictures of their rooms, so I had to make a new one. I finally got a shot of our newly-redecorated and additionally-acoustified room, so I thought I'd share it here. Note the VERY small footprint of the rack, which is on wheels. It has very little effect on the imaging and depth. Examine the angles and you can see that any path from the tweeter to the rack bounces off angled top of the rack and up towards the 22' high angled ceiling! The Mackie Pro Control is a potential comb-filter to the ear because of its flat surface but not where it is placed. And it is placed on a totally open wooden frame to minimize acoustic interference. I only use it when I get a mixing job (once every few months), and when doing intense work with it I take it off the frame and literally sit it on the couch next to my lap. Then it's "just like home." :-)

The Real Traps Mondo traps are on the walls now, finally. And 3 more behind the curtain, too in a small alcove. Not seen is the rest of the analog and digital gear and tape decks are on the walls or behind in an 8-foot rack or else "virtual" in the computer. On top of the little wooden rack is a flip-up video monitor which also has minimal effect on the audio. I use a wireless keyboard/mouse combo from Belkin.

Behind the couch is the editing station (not seen). Not seen, on the left beside the couch is the TC-6000 Icon remote, the Avocet Remote, and a midi controller to remote control some other gear. I'm heavy on remote controls so as to minimize the acoustic effect of gear in front of me.

Soon to be added is a rack behind the couch and below its "lip" for additional gear, with the knobs pointing up. And a video monitor on the curtains themselves, hopefully good enough to run the computer and play video for synch when necessary. And then comes the surround :_).

Hey Bob,
Are you sitting on the couch while you work[listening position]??
Old 13th June 2006
  #42
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer
Hey Bob,
Are you sitting on the couch while you work[listening position]??

Why yes, Chris, right? Flip up the video monitor that's on top of the rack and on with the wireless keyboard and mouse in my lap. The TC and Avocet are on my left. I have a remote control I built for the Hedd at my left also. I invented a remote controller for the Z Sys router I call "Routezilla", so I can patch the digital gear in remotely with my mouse at my lap. The analog gear has to be patched by hand, for the forseeable future. But once eveything is patched, it's all at my fingertips and/or on the flipup computer screen you see on the top of the wooden rack. Neat, eh?

BK
Old 13th June 2006
  #43
Lives for gear
 
Masterer's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
Why yes, Chris, right? Flip up the video monitor that's on top of the rack and on with the wireless keyboard and mouse in my lap. The TC and Avocet are on my left. I have a remote control I built for the Hedd at my left also. I invented a remote controller for the Z Sys router I call "Routezilla", so I can patch the digital gear in remotely with my mouse at my lap. The analog gear has to be patched by hand, for the forseeable future. But once eveything is patched, it's all at my fingertips and/or on the flipup computer screen you see on the top of the wooden rack. Neat, eh?

BK

That looks awfully comfy. I'm building my "home" studio at the moment and I'm seriously considering going this route [the zero console route]. Any drawbacks?

BTW if you could get the screen to flip up automatically it would be very James Bond of you.
Old 13th June 2006
  #44
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer
That looks awfully comfy. I'm building my "home" studio at the moment and I'm seriously considering going this route [the zero console route]. Any drawbacks?
Yeah, no cup holders!
But seriously... All Mastering facilities should go to this format! I am...

Regards,
Old 13th June 2006
  #45
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Bob,

>I I doubt that the additional exposure of the hard wall surface beneath the trap will increase the HF in my room, but I could be wrong.<

The reason the traps will absorb more HF if spaced off the wall is sound comes in from the sides and hits the wall then the back of the panel or just hits the back of the panel. The back sides of a properly designed trap will let sound through easily. I will say that because you have two panels in that corner it will act about as good as one panel straddled, so I am sure it is fine.

Glenn
Old 13th June 2006
  #46
Moderator
 
jayfrigo's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by crna59
Yeah, no cup holders!
But seriously... All Mastering facilities should go to this format! I am...
I wouldn't say "all". It's a neat idea and worth pursuing in some cases, but I'm not ready to lose a small desk. There are plenty of acoustic considerations for either approach. You think a big, shiny, leather couch has no acoustic impact? And there will be a rack of some sort until we have the all-virtual studio with VR gloves and glasses.

Ergonomics are better served for me, and seemingly for most, with a small desk. A well considered plan for the console and the room will minimize it's impact. A well conceived one can even have a positive influence in some areas, even with the obvious reflection concerns in others. You can even build some trapping or other absorption into a custom console. I did. Make it part of the plan, not an intrusion on it.

Either approach can work technically. It's just up to the individual which works better personally. One thing I think we can all agree on is that monster-sized consoles that look like video edit bays with large flat surfaces and closed-in underbellies are a terrible idea. A small footprint console that's open underneath and has a well-considered geometry, or the console-less approach are better options.
Old 13th June 2006
  #47
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfrigo
I wouldn't say "all". It's a neat idea and worth pursuing in some cases, but I'm not ready to lose a small desk.
I totally agree, but when you can't even SEE the speakers in some of the pictures on this board, then I think it's time to reevaluate your acoustics!
Don't even get me started with speakers on the meter bridge!

Regards,
Old 13th June 2006
  #48
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Bob,

> I am definitely considering the pros and cons of spacing the traps a bit away from the wall. I'd like Ethan to chime in on that. <

When traps are spaced off the wall or straddling the corner, which is similar, they absorb to a lower frequency. This is shown in photos all over the RealTraps site. But it does increase mid/high frequency absorption for the reason Glenn explained, via the rear of the panel. You should still experiment, though the traps you have now behind the curtain absorb plenty of very low bass because of the way they're mounted.

> I intend to mount four Auralex space-diffusors on top of the four exposed Mondo Traps, just to get a bit more HF openness back that I lost with the addition of the Mondos. <

I'm not sure that's a good idea. Those diffusors are made of wood, so they'll reflect some of the lows before they can get into the trap. The front surface of our traps are semi-reflective anyway, so that's not a major source of mid/high absorption. A better option is to replace some of the Sonex you have with diffusors. That way you'll still avoid flutter echo at the highest frequencies (shallow diffusors don't get down very low), and by replacing the Sonex, that will bring back more of the ambience.

> Perhaps Ethan should make some traps with diffusors on top. <

Shhhh! heh

--Ethan
Old 13th June 2006
  #49
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer
Bob,

> I am definitely considering the pros and cons of spacing the traps a bit away from the wall. I'd like Ethan to chime in on that. <

When traps are spaced off the wall or straddling the corner, which is similar, they absorb to a lower frequency. This is shown in photos all over the RealTraps site. But it does increase mid/high frequency absorption for the reason Glenn explained, via the rear of the panel. You should still experiment, though the traps you have now behind the curtain absorb plenty of very low bass because of the way they're mounted.

> I intend to mount four Auralex space-diffusors on top of the four exposed Mondo Traps, just to get a bit more HF openness back that I lost with the addition of the Mondos. <

I'm not sure that's a good idea. Those diffusors are made of wood, so they'll reflect some of the lows before they can get into the trap. The front surface of our traps are semi-reflective anyway, so that's not a major source of mid/high absorption. A better option is to replace some of the Sonex you have with diffusors. That way you'll still avoid flutter echo at the highest frequencies (shallow diffusors don't get down very low), and by replacing the Sonex, that will bring back more of the ambience.

> Perhaps Ethan should make some traps with diffusors on top. <

Shhhh! heh

--Ethan
The Real Poly? ha ha ha ha heh

Glenn
Old 14th June 2006
  #50
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by myfipie
Hey Bob,
Great looking room..
Got one question though. Why did you not straddle the front corners with the traps? I think you would find it will work much better on the low end.

Glenn
Thanks, I don't think it compares with the fancy looks of someone like Jay Frigoletto's room, but I did try to make it look pretty! To that end it's why I didn't straddle the corners. In this room the traps look better where they are. But if I get more traps I'll supplement the modes in the back where I can trap and it won't be as visually a problem. I'm finding that you can trap in the front or the back of a long length mode and get very similar effect, it doesn't have to be where the sound is "generated".

BK
Old 14th June 2006
  #51
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer
Bob,

> I am definitely considering the pros and cons of spacing the traps a bit away from the wall. I'd like Ethan to chime in on that. <

When traps are spaced off the wall or straddling the corner, which is similar, they absorb to a lower frequency. This is shown in photos all over the RealTraps site. But it does increase mid/high frequency absorption for the reason Glenn explained, via the rear of the panel. You should still experiment, though the traps you have now behind the curtain absorb plenty of very low bass because of the way they're mounted.

> I intend to mount four Auralex space-diffusors on top of the four exposed Mondo Traps, just to get a bit more HF openness back that I lost with the addition of the Mondos. <

I'm not sure that's a good idea. Those diffusors are made of wood, so they'll reflect some of the lows before they can get into the trap. The front surface of our traps are semi-reflective anyway, so that's not a major source of mid/high absorption. A better option is to replace some of the Sonex you have with diffusors. That way you'll still avoid flutter echo at the highest frequencies (shallow diffusors don't get down very low), and by replacing the Sonex, that will bring back more of the ambience.

> Perhaps Ethan should make some traps with diffusors on top. <

Shhhh! heh

--Ethan
Well the room was exceptionally well balanced from midrange to top BEFORE the addition of the traps. And the Schroeder curves before/after show considerable additional Mid/Hf loss, so I felt that putting the diffusors on top of the traps

That sonex is the "hard kind" so it is considerably more diffusive than the soft sonex, and it worked before, so I feel it is the addition of the mondos that have affected the HF reverberation constant. What remains to be seen (heard), though, is what problem the Auralexes could cause placed physically on top of the traps. You may be right. I spoke to the Auralex rep and he did not think it would create a low frequency problem, the traps would be transparent to the lows. I thought so, too. Well, it's an experiment, I could always move the diffusers to where some of the current Sonex is. It just seems funny, if you add something that's too absorptive at mid-HF absorption, then why not place something on top of it to counteract it, rather than let that stuff face the room?

But if the diffusors affect the strength of the mondos (by measurement) I'll move them as Ethan says, in place of a few pieces of Sonex. The Sonex was intended strictly as a flutter-echo remover.
Old 14th June 2006
  #52
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
but I did try to make it look pretty!
I especially like the blue and red curtains Bob!

JT
Old 14th June 2006
  #53
Deleted User
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I'd take Sontec over Sonex any day!
Old 14th June 2006
  #54
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Bob,

> the Schroeder curves before/after show considerable additional Mid/Hf loss, so I felt that putting the diffusors on top of the traps <

Understood. Another thing to try, since you're in "experiment" mode (whether you want to be or not!) is to cover the side slot openings with cardboard. That will not harm their bass absorption at all, and it will reduce absorption at mid and high frequencies. Just a thought.

--Ethan
Old 14th June 2006
  #55
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer
Bob,

> the Schroeder curves before/after show considerable additional Mid/Hf loss, so I felt that putting the diffusors on top of the traps <

Understood. Another thing to try, since you're in "experiment" mode (whether you want to be or not!) is to cover the side slot openings with cardboard. That will not harm their bass absorption at all, and it will reduce absorption at mid and high frequencies. Just a thought.

--Ethan

I'm definitely in experiment mode. Can elaborate on that... is that fix an enhancement or a bug? :-) :-)
Old 14th June 2006
  #56
Gear Addict
 
bit mangler's Avatar
 

Bob,

A question about the x-250 - in your working spl levels does it run class "A" .For a mastering setup is there a preference for the type of amp?I heard that many of the active monitors have class "D" amps which are shunned by the audiophiles.I'd appreciate your comments on this
Old 14th June 2006
  #57
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
I'm definitely in experiment mode.
You have an interesting approach Bob, rather than do a fancy dressed out expensive room, you've done the following...

1. modest, minimal acoustic treatment... only change what's needed.

2. highest quality gear.

3. minimum obstructions in the room.

4. all arranged & adjusted by careful listening.

Sometimes less is more?

JT
Old 15th June 2006
  #58
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bit mangler
Bob,

A question about the x-250 - in your working spl levels does it run class "A" .For a mastering setup is there a preference for the type of amp?I heard that many of the active monitors have class "D" amps which are shunned by the audiophiles.I'd appreciate your comments on this

Good points, all! The X-250 I bought because it sounded great. I was once a big fan of Class A and I had a Krell. Then I switched to the Hafler, which sounded great for many years until I got the Lipinskis, which ate the Hafler and spit it out raw. So then I tried and tried to avoid Class A, but in the end I had to do it, there's some magic in the Pass that I did not find in any other amp. The most powerful Bryston had enough of a grain or hardness and not enough depth to please me, and its bass was not as deep or solid as the Pass. A lot of this just has to do with how many joules there are in the power supply!

According to the bias meter and at the SPLs I'm running my Pass, I don't think I've ever seen it switch out of Class A. But the bias meter is relatively slow and it might switch momentarily on peaks for all I know. 75 watts is the crossover point if I recall correctly, and that's a lot of poost!

Now, that said, audiophiles are turning around about Class D. The new Evo amp from.... is reported to be much better. All the Class D amps are getting better. I ALMOST bought the previous Evo model, its midrange and high end were closest to the Pass.

So, anyway, I'm REALLY hoping the new Class D amp from Lipinski will equal or better the Pass. I can't afford, for many reasons, including money, to run 5 equal channels of Pass, when I move to surround.
Old 15th June 2006
  #59
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz

Now, that said, audiophiles are turning around about Class D. The new Evo amp from.... is reported to be much better. All the Class D amps are getting better. I ALMOST bought the previous Evo model, its midrange and high end were closest to the Pass.
I'm running Class-D amps with my new WATT/Puppies. The're one of the most neutral amps I've heard!

HALCRO

Regards,
Old 15th June 2006
  #60
Gear Maniac
 

Good gosh! Looks like an extremely comfy living room. Give me a room like that and I'll probably fall asleep on occasion while working. :D
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