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Multiband compression during mastering on dance style music Equalisers (HW)
Old 19th June 2006
  #31
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JohnNy C's Avatar
 

Another way is to sidechain a standard signal generator to your original kick track. While listening to the entire mix, set the signal generator to the right pitch, add FX if necessary, and enjoy. If done right and blended nicely, it will help the kick slice right through the mix without mucking things up.
Old 19th June 2006
  #32
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNy C
Another way is to sidechain a standard signal generator to your original kick track. While listening to the entire mix, set the signal generator to the right pitch, add FX if necessary, and enjoy. If done right and blended nicely, it will help the kick slice right through the mix without mucking things up.
I should try that in mastering :-). Fix it in the mastering :-(.
Old 19th June 2006
  #33
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inlinenl's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Hello eddu

I personally think, that is is a combination of EQ and comression. finding the right flavour and possibilities with a track I get in for mastering.

Personaly .. when a mix/production is really well .. you won't need multiband at all ... or you just use it because the flavour of that machine is doing the track right ...

If I use multiband .... ( tubetech-smc-2B ) I'll put the low band around 100 Hz ( move around a little to find the sweet spot ) en give it a slow attack and a medium release .. and then give a lot more compensation volume on that band ....

But first I try to get a balanced song with the digital and analog EQ's .. and as last in the chain the 2Bus Manley-vari-Mu ...

after the digital Weiss EQ which is in 90% of the cases taking away some low end up until 40/50/60 Hz ... just what it needs with a slight slope .. That cleans up the signal

then I put in the Multband compressor in the chain, first getting a setting where you don't here a "sound-change" ..

.. than fiddle around with the low-band on the tubetech .. to get some real FAT low end ... just to the point where it gets to saturated ...... but that is a very personal taste ...

the tubetech sometimes is compressing around -6 dB .. or around -1.5 dB .. depends on the input-material .. ( real virus, novation YES !!!! please ) ... the manley is just hitting very slow and with a medium release around 0.5 or - 1 dB in the end ...

Just don't limit .... ( but he compression is limiting ) and don't flatten the mix .. those woofers should move some air ...

but he next time I try differently ....

so its a 50/50 .. EQ/COMpression .. and taking out the freq that disturb a clean lowend ... so that you can boost a clean low-end

greetings Wim

www.inlinemastering.com

This was a reaction from a client from Ireland on a dance track I recently did which for sure was kicking some low-end from the multiband ...

"I listened to both, they are both out of this world, but something tells me
I prefer version 2 - def upload track 02.wav, it sounds a little less
compressed and a bit clearer."
Old 22nd June 2006
  #34
Here for the gear
 

Katz´s post (and inlinenl´s) about quality of software compressors and how he uses his hardware makes me think again that i cant compare with some good mastering jobs basically cause i dont have the tools, as i think i knew most all the tips and hints you people said here (thanks a lot for this).

The closest to a real thing i can use is UAD´s emulations.

Its sad to think i cant really know what my real skills are cause i dont have the money to buy and use some particular equipment.

****...i hate being poor...once again...
Old 22nd June 2006
  #35
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Nordenstam's Avatar
 

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Noooooooooooo!

You can get at least 95% there with just about anything. (donning the flame ******ant suit) It's in the ear, not the gear!
Old 22nd June 2006
  #36
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inlinenl's Avatar
 

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eddu,

just try to get there with software .... also while mastering check against a reference track of well-know trance/dance productions .... and try to come close .. and do better ...


Greetinsg Wim
Old 22nd June 2006
  #37
Here for the gear
 

Dont get me wrong, i know its not ONLY that i dont have the equipment. Of course i´ll get better the more i try, and i suppose that applies to anyone but..you know...if you have it you use it...and you get better sound, its that simple.

Anyway, besides the fact that this is an audio related forum, let me say again:

I HATE BEING POOR!!!

Sorry i couldnt resist

EDIT: BTW i not only reference my tracks to some other during mastering...i also try to do it while mixing, i has lead me to better results this way (turning on a limiter on the mix buss to get more level)
Old 22nd June 2006
  #38
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
Noooooooooooo!

You can get at least 95% there with just about anything. (donning the flame ******ant suit) It's in the ear, not the gear!
I thoroughly agree, it's the ears, not the gear.

I'm totally positive that just armed with my Weiss and TC gear I could get 95% of my work done! And I teach in my book that it is not the gear but the knowledge of how to use it.

But despite that teaching, it is that 5% that you can't get to that is the reason for my analog gear. It is not just the talent and the knowledge of how to manipulate attack, release, ratio, threshold, etc. There ARE tools which have certain strengths, weaknesses and capabilities, and despite my years of talent and work, I still find examples of music/sound that I can try to get a specific sound for hours and hours with one tool, but in five minutes I can get the sound I want through another tool.

Nevertheless, I am continually amazed AND PLEASED when someone else comes here with his own style and expertise, and gets a sound out of a piece of gear that I never believed it could produce. So I'm always learning.

But until someone shows me how I can get certain types of rock and hip hop qualities from my TC that I seem to only get from my Trakker, I'm going to continue to invest in certain important pieces of analog gear...

If someone getting started in mastering asked me what compressors/expanders/dynamics processors to get first, I'd say a TC System 6000, second, a Weiss DS1-MK2, and third, a Cranesong Trakker. Better than 80% of the time, my Trakkers are off, but I turn to them and occasionally to the Pendulum, for certain jobs that they seem to do better than the Weiss or TC. Is it the ear, the gear, or just me?

BK
Old 23rd June 2006
  #39
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Ben F's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Thanks for the enlightening comments, Bob.

I would have to agree that there is that 5-10% difference that you just can't get with software, particularly with dance or electronica, which I do a lot of. The main reason i believe is most of this music is mixed ITB with little outboard analogue processing. No matter what plug-ins you use it's nearly impossible to get rid of the ITB sound. The signal needs to pass through some nice analogue, particularly for compression. One of the main benifits is the front to back depth and stereo image, plus the way analogue gear 'grooves' when you have the attack and release times correct.

In my opinon you can't beat Tube-Tech compressors for this...either the CL1Bs or the multiband, particularly for low end punch and low mid warmth, so it sounds like vynil on CD.

For EQ, some plug-ins sound quite good- the UAD-1 pultecs for example, or the PSP aren't bad either. But you can't beat a little 60Hz on a Manley or real Pultec. It's an organic quality that doesn't sound 'fake'. I often filter out some of the low end on the Weiss very accurately at harmonic intervals, then add maybe 1dB or 2dB of low end or even a 200Hz shelving with an anlalogue EQ before compression. Some slight limiting and 'boom twack' the track powers along!
Old 23rd June 2006
  #40
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Verified Member
Ben F ....

finally someone steps up for multiband and tubetech ... it's bashed down a lot time by ME's .. if I read correctly ...

stereo-width and depth .. you're right ...

Guus did well !!!! good football .. have fun ..

Greetings Wim

www.inlinemastering.com
Old 23rd June 2006
  #41
Here for the gear
 

So...maybe i am asking too much (if i do please tell me, np at all) but as a guy who has been producing ALWAYS ITB i´d like to hear what your master hardware stuff sound like: your tube techs, vari-mus, etc.

Can i post here a sample and somebody pass it thru your analogue magic so that we can really hear what is its sound?

I am not asking to do a mastering for me, i´ll only upload a 8 bars sample and you just have to run it thru your gear, do a little tweaking if you like, and upload it back to the forum.

This is only for curiosity and i fully undestand you dont want to waste your time in this but..hey..asking for it is free and maybe you are a bit bored or you just want to hear what other equipment from other people does so maybe this aint a bad idea at all.

Cheers
Old 23rd June 2006
  #42
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Tom H's Avatar
 

Great thread
I've been reading it with a lot of interest, it's nice to see that the pro mastering guys feel the challenge to make a good master for a dancetrack!

I can totally understand that some tracks you guys receive for mastering are way to compressed allready to work with.
The problem here is that compressors in dance music are used more as an effect than as a device to controll the dynamic range. In fact i'm quite sure some producers allready have a hardware compressor on their stereobuss before they even program one beat...

If you listen to some classic techno tracks, wich became blueprints for dance as we know it, you can hear them play around with the compressor settings during the song! Take Dave Clark's red2 as an example.

My thoughts are that, especially in clubmusic, compression is an essential tool of the composition of the track and leaving it out of the production-process will be very "difficult" for most guys.

Also note that most clubtracks get mastered for vinyl too wich explains that solid mono sound we're used to. Nowadays with more dj's using cd's things can change of course, there are venues where a lot of stereo can sound very cool!

Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject, and again it's nice to see how you guys approach this style of music.
Old 24th June 2006
  #43
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddu
So...maybe i am asking too much (if i do please tell me, np at all) but as a guy who has been producing ALWAYS ITB i´d like to hear what your master hardware stuff sound like: your tube techs, vari-mus, etc.

Can i post here a sample and somebody pass it thru your analogue magic so that we can really hear what is its sound?

I am not asking to do a mastering for me, i´ll only upload a 8 bars sample and you just have to run it thru your gear, do a little tweaking if you like, and upload it back to the forum.

This is only for curiosity and i fully undestand you dont want to waste your time in this but..hey..asking for it is free and maybe you are a bit bored or you just want to hear what other equipment from other people does so maybe this aint a bad idea at all.

Cheers
No problems mate, check my profile and send the sample to the email address on our website.
Old 24th June 2006
  #44
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Ben F's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by inlinenl
Ben F ....

finally someone steps up for multiband and tubetech ... it's bashed down a lot time by ME's .. if I read correctly ...

stereo-width and depth .. you're right ...

Guus did well !!!! good football .. have fun ..

Greetings Wim

www.inlinemastering.com
I think multi-band is bashed because so many inexperienced people abuse them (mainly software). I love the mulit-band tube-tech, so do my clients, they always ask "can we run it through the big blue compressor?". I only wish they would add a switch to link bands together...then in would be perfect.

Yeah and Australia is doing pretty well!

I dig your studio, by the way, pretty close to what I'd regard as an ideal set-up.

Ben
Old 24th June 2006
  #45
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RobAcid's Avatar
 

i dont use any multiband compression at all. and my clients are in love with my work and the sound of there 12".

Old 24th June 2006
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
Ged Leitch's Avatar
 

that said, multiband used *Sparingly* I.e set to one band for example.

Can save a mix sometimes, and can be used creatively...

If and when i use it, its ALWAYS on one band only,

Usually for>>>

De essing

or

Controling a boomy kick/bass balance

or

Adding some punch to the low mids - i.e slow attack - fast release.
Old 24th June 2006
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNy C
Another way is to sidechain a standard signal generator to your original kick track. While listening to the entire mix, set the signal generator to the right pitch, add FX if necessary, and enjoy. If done right and blended nicely, it will help the kick slice right through the mix without mucking things up.
like roger nichols' wendel? at first i thought it was a joke...but check out the drums on "hey nineteen". anyway, i do use renbass in mastering; a tip i took from another m.e. who's work i admire [matt grey]. probably not very different conceptually.

jeff dinces
Old 25th June 2006
  #48
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JohnSyndicate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNy C
Another way is to sidechain a standard signal generator to your original kick track. While listening to the entire mix, set the signal generator to the right pitch, add FX if necessary, and enjoy. If done right and blended nicely, it will help the kick slice right through the mix without mucking things up.
yes!! My dad showed me this technique years ago. He used to use it on the kick drums in his rock albums. I've recently picked it back up to incorporate in some of my dance tunes.
Old 26th June 2006
  #49
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Ben F's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAcid
i dont use any multiband compression at all. and my clients are in love with my work and the sound of there 12".

Hey Rob, I'm keen to hear the mastered 12" you're doing for my friends label Future Classic.
Old 26th June 2006
  #50
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

yes, a lot of producers start already with a L2 at the output! its definitly more fun. but then theres not much space for a lot of tracks without being overcrowed or distorts. then again, clubmusic and other dance styles thats the idea. keeping it simple and adding efx.

i also tried that trick of adding a side chain comp trigered by the kik and compresing the whole track.
so adding another kik track to the whole track in another session.

of course their is a porcentage of times it works vs it doesnt.

that will be a "pre-mastering" stage.

anyone heard maddonas last album. damn thats using a lot of compresion sidechained.
Old 26th June 2006
  #51
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F
I think multi-band is bashed because so many inexperienced people abuse them (mainly software). I love the mulit-band tube-tech, so do my clients, they always ask "can we run it through the big blue compressor?". I only wish they would add a switch to link bands together...then in would be perfect.

Yeah and Australia is doing pretty well!

I dig your studio, by the way, pretty close to what I'd regard as an ideal set-up.

Ben
Ben F. thanks for the compliment .. what do you think would make it REAL-close to an Ideal setup ..... i'm interested in your expirience ..

I'm still thinking a more colored EQ would be good to have around ... what about a Manley MP or Fairman TMEQ or tubetech EQ's....

Greetings Wim
Old 26th June 2006
  #52
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Cojo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlinenl
Ben F. thanks for the compliment .. what do you think would make it REAL-close to an Ideal setup ..... i'm interested in your expirience ..

I'm still thinking a more colored EQ would be good to have around ... what about a Manley MP or Fairman TMEQ or tubetech EQ's....

Greetings Wim
Hi inlinenl!

This post made me surf in to your web and I started to listen to the samples of the unmastered/mastered tracks and I got amazed by how the quality of the sound can change in mastering and, in your case, for the better!

It also seems that the worse the production was from the beginning the bigger change to the better after mastering. Great work!

Sorry if I went of topic here but I'm on adrenaline!



...over and out.

/Cojo
Old 26th June 2006
  #53
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Verified Member
Cojo, thank's .... all those samples ... I'm too busy mastering ... to update, I think I did not put-up the best projects of the last 1/2 year. Hope to update again soon ... have to do it myself ...:-)

Glad you liked the samples .... getting better all the time ... you're always invited to upload a track for mastering :-)

Greetings wim/inline
Old 26th June 2006
  #54
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Cojo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlinenl
you're always invited to upload a track for mastering :-)
...maby I'll do just that.
Old 27th June 2006
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz
I thoroughly agree, it's the ears, not the gear.

I'm totally positive that just armed with my Weiss and TC gear I could get 95% of my work done! And I teach in my book that it is not the gear but the knowledge of how to use it.

BK
I'm not disagreeing, but i don't think that's the message people take from "it's the knowledge not the gear".

It's one thing if you're saying you can do the work with two $300 items. It's another to say gear doesn't matter all is my Weiss and TC 6000. The former is very expensive and the latter is $20k fully loaded.

For great resutls you need both great ears and great gear. Great ears and great gear will be great ears and crappy gear. Either variable can limit the result.
Old 27th June 2006
  #56
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey
I'm not disagreeing, but i don't think that's the message people take from "it's the knowledge not the gear".

It's one thing if you're saying you can do the work with two $300 items. It's another to say gear doesn't matter all is my Weiss and TC 6000. The former is very expensive and the latter is $20k fully loaded.

For great resutls you need both great ears and great gear. Great ears and great gear will be great ears and crappy gear. Either variable can limit the result.
True.... but interestingly it's diminishing returns once you reach the "90% mark". You don't get 10 times the quality from gear that costs 10 times the price. What I mean is that if you have the talent, you can get very very good results from all plugins if a mix is decent. Brad ran a little "all plugin" mastering thing at PSW last year and I participated. I was quite surprised at the quality I could get with all plugins. Maybe you lose 1%, 2%, if the mix is very good, compared to outboard Weiss, TC, etc. That 1% is important to mastering engineers who are striving not to lose anything, but in the overall scheme of things, it shows how far along plugins have come, especially for good-sounding mixes in the first place.

However, when a recording (mix) is less than optimal, that's where the high-end analog and digital outboard really separate the men from the boys. Problems such as severe sibilance, edginess, harshness, "small mixes"...., mixes that need punch and drive and warmth and clarity, sometimes all at once! It's there that the superior equipment makes far more than a 1% difference, where it is absolutely essential in some cases.

BK
Old 27th June 2006
  #57
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Ben F's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by inlinenl
Ben F. thanks for the compliment .. what do you think would make it REAL-close to an Ideal setup ..... i'm interested in your expirience ..

I'm still thinking a more colored EQ would be good to have around ... what about a Manley MP or Fairman TMEQ or tubetech EQ's....

Greetings Wim
The Manley is a great EQ, but I think your Wiess and NSEQ-2 should sort out most EQ duites, from what I gather you want to add some colour. Since we have added some real Pultecs (transistor versions) I hardly use the MP anymore...they are incredible for adding some nice colour! Beautiful on vocals, kick/bass, top end sparkle, or high freq attenuation. I know tube tech make some copies, I haven't compared them to the originals, but I'm sure they would be similar. You may want to try the tube techs out, I know the circuit is pretty much identical, with transformer inputs as well:

http://www.tube-tech.com/?show=produ...r&productId=16

Then Manley uses 'improved' electronic balanced inputs, and from what I have heard do not sound the same. But you can get a stereo unit for a good price:

http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/eqp1a99.html

The midrange of the Massive Passive is definately not as good as a real Pultec.

Hope that helps!
Old 27th June 2006
  #58
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

It's one thing if you're saying you can do the work with two $300 items. It's another to say gear doesn't matter all is my Weiss and TC 6000. The former is very expensive and the latter is $20k fully loaded.

For great resutls you need both great ears and great gear. Great ears and great gear will be great ears and crappy gear. Either variable can limit the result.
Heh...just what i was thinking.

Ok so this is a house sample i made some time ago, never did nothing serious with it. It reminds me to some famous song by Michael Grey:"The weekend" and so many others that sound more or less the same. Of course mine isn´t at that level but i remember i had a good time playing the guitar (now i see my playing was a real crap).

I dont think the bass and drum kick sound "tight" though, at least at my studio (i know the room has a deficient sound), i can differentiate each other in the mix. If you can listen to "The weekend" you´ll see what i call tight - i didnt sidechain kick and bass here and Grey did, but anyway the sound of his kick and bass is much more controlled. So as mastering engineers could you point out what would you do if this arrives to your work place?

Ben F thanks for offering you to run a sample to your best hardware, if you want you can use this one. Same to all of the other users of this forum.

Cheers
Attached Files

!16barHouse.wav (5.01 MB, 468 views)

Old 4th July 2006
  #59
Gear Addict
 
Kayo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey
They may have, but I'd bet it's some form of EQ. I tend to notch out a few tiny slivers of certain low frequencies to shape the low end the way I want. That definitely makes a tighter sound without affecting the dynamics.

Another possibility is elliptical EQ - going M/S and getting rid of extraneous low in info from the sides.
Hey, that's interesting...
I clearly recall using the MD3 on the Powercore platform, in M/S mode and when I take the bass off from the S-side, it does get very mono like.
Now, I'm curious, is that a elliptical EQ in total, or is this effect just behaving somewhat like an elliptical EQ..

Thanks.
Old 4th July 2006
  #60
Gear Addict
 
Kayo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNy C
Another way is to sidechain a standard signal generator to your original kick track. While listening to the entire mix, set the signal generator to the right pitch, add FX if necessary, and enjoy. If done right and blended nicely, it will help the kick slice right through the mix without mucking things up.

Sorry to be a pain..
But, I totally lost you there?
Sidechain a signal generator??? Which generator could I use? and how does one go about doing that?
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