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DSD -> SACD Dynamics Plugins
Old 24th May 2006
  #1
Gear Addict
 

DSD -> SACD

DSD Conversion software

SACD Creator

Instead of sending my DSD files to Super Audio Center, would this be what I am looking for? I thought I'd need an actual SACD burner. Has anyone used this software from "nexStage". This what the brochure states:

SACD Creator:
nexStage SACD Creator is an easy, “one-button” SACD premastering solution that converts DSD content into a complete SACD cutting master, ready for replication. SACD Creator is a comprehensive suite that converts DSD or DSD EM (Edited Master) files to a complete, verified SACD disc image. SACD Creator includes software metering, DSD to DST encoding, authoring, verification and logging via an simple graphical user interface. With integrated tape library support, SACD Creator is for Windows 2000 & Windows XP…Learn more.

• converts DSD or DSD EM files to a fully verified SACD disc image
• provides soft metering
• performs DSD to DST lossless data encoding
• includes SACD authoring
• enables verification of finished image
• audit trail support with logging function
• supports delivery to AIT tape mechanisms
• Available for Windows 2000 & XP

Regards,
Bruce
Old 24th May 2006
  #2
Craneslut
 
Brad Blackwood's Avatar
 

Verified Member
You don't burn an SACD, but rather a disc image that goes to the plant. There are no SACD burners, Sony won't allow it (unless they radically change their stance).
Old 24th May 2006
  #3
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood
You don't burn an SACD, but rather a disc image that goes to the plant. There are no SACD burners, Sony won't allow it (unless they radically change their stance).
O'kay... so let me get this straight. I pay almost EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS to burn an SACD image for replication?? What benefit is that over just sending DSD and Edit Master files for replication? I don't get it? I'm just saving them a step in the replication.

Regards,
Bruce
Old 25th May 2006
  #4
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Darius van H's Avatar
 

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And we wonder why SACD never took off?
Old 25th May 2006
  #5
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So, if I understand correctly the difference is in the authoring. The $8000. gets you the ability to offer SACD Authoring as well as PCM-DSD conversion etc commercially. It certainly would take a long time to make that back...

You wouldn't send the DSD Edit Master files direct to replication for the same reason you wouldn't send PCM edit master files without creating a disc image first (with PQ codes etc.). Are the SACD replicators all offering authoring as well?

Merging Pyramix has been talking about incorporating SACD Authoring for a while. I don't know where thay are at with it but I believe it is in progress.

Last time I knew the SA Center was pretty reasonable for just straight authoring / image creation.

Best,
Silas
Old 25th May 2006
  #6
arf
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There was a press release recently from SONY Electronics, Japan, that they were doing away with AIT Cutting masters and setting up the SACD pressing process to take edit masters or authored masters directly from DVD-R. There have always been problems at the plant with AIT SACD cutting masters during the glass verification stage and this move presumably gets around it. So an AIT authoring package might be obsolote. Re-modulating PCM to DSD, however, is as much art as science and there are far less expensive solutions. Weiss SARACON is out now, and softDSD from SigREAL may actually come out some day.
Old 25th May 2006
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crna59
O'kay... so let me get this straight. I pay almost EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS to burn an SACD image for replication?? What benefit is that over just sending DSD and Edit Master files for replication? I don't get it? I'm just saving them a step in the replication.
Regards,
Bruce
If you're serious about SACD production then a package like the nextStage SACD authoring software, though not cheap, is only one of the pieces you'll need to do it properly. Like it or not, SACD mastering and authoring is not the commodity that CD mastering has become. In the early days of DVD, authoring packages were much more expensive than this! And a fully featured DVD-A package like the top-of-the-line Diskwelder is comparably priced (give or take).
Old 25th May 2006
  #8
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by glassmaster
And a fully featured DVD-A package like the top-of-the-line Diskwelder is comparably priced (give or take).
Well for the "Discwelder Chrome II" DVD-A authoring package at $3k, at least you can burn a pre-master with your Plextor drive!! I still have to send my DSD files out to get the SACD conversion. Guess we'll have to wait for Sony to release? a SACD burner. Is Sony learning the business practices of Digi??

Regards,
Old 25th May 2006
  #9
Craneslut
 
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by crna59
Well for the "Discwelder Chrome II" DVD-A authoring package at $3k, at least you can burn a pre-master with your Plextor drive!! I still have to send my DSD files out to get the SACD conversion. Guess we'll have to wait for Sony to release? a SACD burner. Is Sony learning the business practices of Digi??
Not gonna happen. Ultimate copy protection...
Old 27th May 2006
  #10
Gear Addict
 
zenmastering's Avatar
Yep...the "SACD-R", officially known as the 'Super Audio Listening Disk,' has existed for a few years now. I have had several made and they work as you'd expect, minus the Redbook layer.

This disk is absolutely not accepted at any plant for replication. A 'Cutting Master' file on AIT tape or disk (UCMF) is still required for proper replication.

Merging's Pyramix does now have SACD authoring and includes the ability take a project of any PCM format or DSD all the way to the 'Cutting Master.'

Best,

Graemme
Old 28th May 2006
  #11
Gear Head
 
Creative's Avatar
 

Anyone have some info on SigReal LLC and their products (Digify, RefMaker and SoftDSD)?
I'm very interested to know some way to give an SACD refernce to my clients.

Thanks,
Stefano Cappelli
Creative Mastering
http://www.creativemastering.com
Old 28th May 2006
  #12
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creative
Anyone have some info on SigReal LLC and their products (Digify, RefMaker and SoftDSD)?
I'm very interested to know some way to give an SACD refernce to my clients.

Thanks,
Stefano Cappelli
Creative Mastering
http://www.creativemastering.com

You can't send them an SACD, only Sony-authorized plants can make them. The best way to share DSD recordings would be with the Tascam machine. I imagine you can cut a DVD-R on the Tascam that you can play on another Tascam. That kind of proprietary, non-sharable file system, though has been the end of many a good idea in the audio industry.

The good thing about the Masterlink, is you can play a Masterlink CD on a computer!

BK
Old 28th May 2006
  #13
arf
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arf's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great
Not if Sony had any brains and was willing to work with the others and make the system universal. This is the same way they killed Beta, which was actually the far superior video tape system.

Don't forget that the vinyl record is also just such a system. And it still hasn't reached its end. heh
Except that if it were not for this ultimate copy protection - you can't burn an SACD-R, there would not be the great many original master recordings that are now available in hi-res on SACD. (While supplies last
Old 10th September 2007
  #14
Lives for gear
 
beyarecords's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crna59 View Post
O'kay... so let me get this straight. I pay almost EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS to burn an SACD image for replication?? What benefit is that over just sending DSD and Edit Master files for replication? I don't get it? I'm just saving them a step in the replication.
Hmm....just had a look at this software myself. Seems pretty pointless to me! You might as well send your DSDIFF files on and be done with it.
Old 11th September 2007
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by glassmaster View Post
If you're serious about SACD production then a package like the nextStage SACD authoring software, though not cheap, is only one of the pieces you'll need to do it properly. Like it or not, SACD mastering and authoring is not the commodity that CD mastering has become. In the early days of DVD, authoring packages were much more expensive than this! And a fully featured DVD-A package like the top-of-the-line Diskwelder is comparably priced (give or take).
Firstly, fan of Minnetonka Audio that I am, I have to state that CHROME 2 is far from being full-featured. A long way from it, in fact.
We all use Sonic's DVD-Audio Creator - which is the only full-featured DVD-A authoring system available. Period.
(Discwelder is $3k, DAC is $13k. Sonic will do deals, and you will make this cost back in no time at all. It is the single most worthwhile package I ever bought. Sadly, I only use DiscWelder now for a QC disc on a 5.1 mix.)

Also - what is to Author with SACD? Sweet F.A. the way I see it. You send the tracks to Sony, who charge you a small fortune, and they do the pressing - you cannot now, or will ever be able to - create your own.
No Burners
No Drives that will play the DSD streams
No software players.

DVD-A is IMHO still the way to go for High Resolution discs.
Old 11th September 2007
  #16
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Verified Member
Looking at the RIAA 2006 Midyear report they tracked 100,000 SACD sales vs. 300,000 for the same amount of time in year 2005. In 2005 the year end report shows 500,000 sold vs. 800,000 in 2004. No - there's no "0" missing" from the end of those numbers. To give an idea CD album sales in the year end report from 2006 - the most dismal year in memory - was 615 million.

In fact they stopped even having an individual item line for SACD sales on the RIAA year end report from 2006 and lumped it in with DVD-A, cassette albums, and vinyl LP's in order to make more room on the report for new itemized categories of digital downloads.

Let's face it: at those pathetic numbers at some point (probably soon) the Sony bean counters will have to pull the plug on the remaining SACD pressing facilities, as maintaining optical disc equipment and a technical staff is expensive and they can get more mileage by rededicating the staff , equipment and plant space to other purposes.

SO: I'd say from a strictly business view point - investing in mastering equipment for SACD is simply a stupid thing to do. If you have motivations other than making better than your investment back (such as a love of the sound of the format) and deep pockets then go for it - but the writing on the wall that the format is quickly going the way of 8-track, DCC, pre-recorded MiniDisc, Video Laser Disc, Beta, quadrophonic vinyl LP, and ummm - DVD-A. Sad but true as far as I can see.

I however DON'T think this means that DSD is dead! With things like the Tascam DVDA1000HD and the Korg MR1000 there seems to be an increasing interest from both pro-audio gear manufacturers and studio owners to have options for mixdown to DSD and I think with bandwidth increases and lossless compression codec improvements it ultimately could make an appearance as the ultimate in hi-res digital delivery formats.

Again - purely as a business decision, planning to put dollars into making SACD masters just doesn't make sense.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 11th September 2007
  #17
arf
Gear Addict
 
arf's Avatar
 

I think SONY DADC plants can run SACDs on the same line as DVD-Vs, so they aren't really SACD only plants anymore. However, it is getting harder to have SACDs pressed as the demand for DVD is still strong.
Old 11th September 2007
  #18
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Cellotron's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by arf View Post
I think SONY DADC plants can run SACDs on the same line as DVD-Vs, so they aren't really SACD only plants anymore. However, it is getting harder to have SACDs pressed as the demand for DVD is still strong.
Of course - you're right - SACD, DVD-V, DVD-A and dual disc can all be pressed using the same modern dual layer press with only minor adjustments these days. I still think that they will ultimately pull out the plant end mastering equipment to make more room for Bluray and/or DVDHD (the next "hopes" for any expansion in the optical disc market).

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 11th September 2007
  #19
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beyarecords's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
I however DON'T think this means that DSD is dead!
From a "Future Proofing" perspective and as a delivery mechanism to current and future audio formats, DSD makes total sense to me.

SACD as a format in itself, well, that remains to be seen but there's life in the old dog just yet. There must be some rational behind Sony's inclusion of SACD into their current PlayStation system.
Old 15th September 2007
  #20
Gear Head
 

DSD as a Pro Format only...?

I have worked extensively with DSD and was one of the Beta testers when it was first developed. I watched it grow, the DVD-A compete, Sony refuse compatibility and delay SACD Hybrid with DVD readers, only to answer to consumer demands and now every player is a DVD/CD/SACD player (even with the questionable converters in the low end of the market). Now it has become a audiophile format for the consumers, and a pro recording format for engineers. The reason why it is still here is because it is superior to all high rez PCM in most situations. I know, I did the A-B-C tests with various equipment and DSD almost always won by sounding best or having no difference to direct microphone.
Besides the above faults mentioned, it is the consumer that did not want to add to their VHS-BETA scar and sat it out. Sony should have completely opened the technology up, theft would not have occurred since most thieves rip to mp3 - defeating the purpose for such a high rez format anyway. Sure there would have been some theft, but considering the person wanting such a high rez format anyway, wouldn't this have created a larger demand for the hardware = more sales?
In the end, I still do at least 6 SACD Hybrid project a year - most of these are multi CD sets (Just did a complete remix from the original analog tapes in surround of all Mahler Symphonies of a major conductor - first time in surround!). Many here are right though - it is market driven. SACD is alive in Japan and Europe, CD and mp3 are the only format the US buys, DVD-Audio is done and most are just straight DVD with either DTS or Dolby encoded, both of which are less quality than 48khz 16 bit (standard DVD stereo). Will SACD Hybrid ever have a major comeback? Well that depends on how they market Blue Ray and if they open up the technology to be more production friendly. It will be an interesting time. But in the end, it is in the consumers hands - if people continue to demand convenience (mp3) over quality (SACD or even standard PCM), then SACD will go away. And this goes both ways, once the labels realized that consumers no longer cared about audio quality and just want mp3's, they come to the studios stating "we are not going to pay for this technology, just get it done as fast as possible for the cheapest price". So the market does wag the dog after all.

Now that I have ranted way to much, to get back to the original question - call Gus at Sonoma and have a chat with him 303 530 7069. He can help you with your problems. If you want an easy way for clients to hear SACD references, tell them to get a Tascam, or old Phillips recorder and burn it in real time. Hopefully with Blue Ray, we will see a burner AND software that will burn SACD CM references (Cutting Master).

In reflection, the last project I did, 16 disc's total SACD Hybrid Stereo and Surround, it took maybe 20% more budget to get that much more in quality and format over PCM production. Sometime I think it is fear that drives the industry. DSD is science to everyone else except the few who actually use it. I just wish I could bring more people into the studio when I am QC'ing my work and switch from SACD surround to PCM stereo. It continues to astonish....

Cheers.
Old 15th September 2007
  #21
Lives for gear
 
themaidsroom's Avatar
 

i have a friend who has made quite a few sacd's here in nyc - at one point he
told me, steve jobs wanted to put sacd in every mac - perhaps even in itunes,
but sony would not participate - they would have taken off if sony had
been willing to take that chance

as far as i understand the audiophile market - vinyl outsells all others - it is
the audiophile format - getting better every year - if you have a turntable up
and running search the internet for a 200 gram 100% analog re-issue and
be amazed

be well


- jack
Old 4th February 2010
  #22
Here for the gear
 

Writing a SACD-R

Is there a way to write Super Audio Listening Discs (Check Discs) if you have Philips Super Author 3.0.1, an SACD Verifier Card, and an edit master available? If so, what software would burn the UCMF to a blank? Also, what kind of blank should be used? (Authoring or Normal DVD-R Media)

Thank you for all comments.
Old 4th February 2010
  #23
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24-96 Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirezsqwave View Post
Is there a way to write Super Audio Listening Discs (Check Discs) if you have Philips Super Author 3.0.1, an SACD Verifier Card, and an edit master available?
No. There's no software to do this because even if you burned the CM to disc, no SACD player would play it because of the PSP watermark missing. There is unfortunately no way of producing an actual SACD ref disc. The closest thing you can do (and this is far from ideal) is to produce a DVD-Audio check disc for the client to check the audio.
Old 4th February 2010
  #24
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crna59 View Post
Well for the "Discwelder Chrome II" DVD-A authoring package at $3k, at least you can burn a pre-master with your Plextor drive!! I still have to send my DSD files out to get the SACD conversion. Guess we'll have to wait for Sony to release? a SACD burner. Is Sony learning the business practices of Digi??

Regards,
For hi-res audio, DVD-As are still the way to go..
You can purchase Discwelder Bronze at a much lower price and use it to create DVD-As.
Also, There are free opensource tools you can use to create DVD-As. Check out these webpages for more details:
DVD audio Tools
DVD-A Creation

I have used my registered version of Discwelder Bronze and the command line tools above to create DVD-As, and both methods work just fine.

I have done a couple of double blind ABX tests between identical SACD vs. DVD-A commercial releases (there aren't many available), using a Denon universal player, class-a amps, a passive transformer pre-amp and planar speakers, and nobody has been able to tell them apart yet.
Old 4th February 2010
  #25
Deleted User
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There is also the DSD disc option which you can create using a Korg MR-1/1000/2000 and the bundled AudioGate software.

DSD Disc playback is limited to the following:
cheers,
Reynaud
Old 4th February 2010
  #26
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24-96 Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
There is also the DSD disc option which you can create using a Korg MR-1/1000/2000 and the bundled AudioGate software.

DSD Disc playback is limited to the following:
cheers,
Reynaud
That's great info! I wish they'd have had that in 2003...
Old 5th February 2010
  #27
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering View Post
No. There's no software to do this because even if you burned the CM to disc, no SACD player would play it because of the PSP watermark missing. There is unfortunately no way of producing an actual SACD ref disc. The closest thing you can do (and this is far from ideal) is to produce a DVD-Audio check disc for the client to check the audio.
The Philips Super Author program is capable of writing out the PSP watermark. The program allows me to enable the PSP mark on the copy management dialog checkbox, and also to specify the .bmp image in the File Parameters dialog box. That being the case, does anybody know of any way the check disc could be created? (Disc Welder, Gear Mastering 8, Toast, etc.)
Old 5th February 2010
  #28
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Cellotron's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
There is also the DSD disc option which you can create using a Korg MR-1/1000/2000 and the bundled AudioGate software.

DSD Disc playback is limited to the following:
cheers,
Reynaud

A very cool hack! I agree with Robin it would have been nice to have had that a few years ago when having a ref disc option could have helped pushed SACD a little bit more than what happened. Hopefully player compatibility can be made larger in the future for DSD Disc - at least it seems like a cool development to me.

In regards to DVD-Audio - Cirlinca's very inexpensive app "HD Audio Solo 2" allows for basic DVD-Audio authoring with the ability to burn a DVD-Video compatible audio layer (with up to 20 picture slides per track) for "Universal Hybrid" discs. It has very limited menu options but currently is the most affordable solution for DVD-Audio authoring out there I know of that works well - Solo DVD-Audio authoring - Author DVD at the best audio quality

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 5th February 2010
  #29
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24-96 Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirezsqwave View Post
The Philips Super Author program is capable of writing out the PSP watermark. The program allows me to enable the PSP mark on the copy management dialog checkbox, and also to specify the .bmp image in the File Parameters dialog box.
AFAIK there are two separate PSP watermark mechanisms on the SACD. The one that you can write with the Philips authoring tools (visible) is optional and is embedded to enable visual identification of genuine discs.

The second type (invisible) is the one that the player looks for. If absent, the disc won't be played. Last I know of, Sony license the tools to add this to SACD replicators only (of which there are probably less than a dozen worldwide). That's the key to SACD's copy protection.

Unless something has changed very recently, there is no way of producing an actual SACD ref disc. If there was, I'd very much like to know about it.
Old 5th February 2010
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering View Post
AFAIK there are two separate PSP watermark mechanisms on the SACD. The one that you can write with the Philips authoring tools (visible) is optional and is embedded to enable visual identification of genuine discs.

The second type (invisible) is the one that the player looks for. If absent, the disc won't be played. Last I know of, Sony license the tools to add this to SACD replicators only (of which there are probably less than a dozen worldwide). That's the key to SACD's copy protection.

Unless something has changed very recently, there is no way of producing an actual SACD ref disc. If there was, I'd very much like to know about it.
That is correct.
I don't recall seeing any SACD with a visible watermark apart from test copies made by Philips and Sony in the early days.
But the non-visible PSP encryption is indeed mandatory and implemented at the replication plant.

The only way is ordering reference disks from the factory. This requires the actual glass mastering and doing a (very) small run.
If approved the production can then continue with the same stamper.
It happens, but there is a cost.

bests,
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