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DSD -> SACD Dynamics Plugins
Old 7th February 2010
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
There is also the DSD disc option which you can create using a Korg MR-1/1000/2000 and the bundled AudioGate software.
The DSD Disc format is great but bear in mind that it allows stereo only -- no multichannel.

(Besides, these Korg 1-bit recorders are all stereo only.)
Old 7th February 2010
  #32
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Originally Posted by The 7th Taylor View Post
The DSD Disc format is great but bear in mind that it allows stereo only -- no multichannel.
Yes, I failed to mention that. Thank you for bringing this up, it is worth mentioning.

cheers,
Reynaud
Old 23rd June 2010
  #33
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DSD streaming?

Is the reason DSD streaming isn't viable also because of Sony? They allow DSD files to be played on the PSP and 5400 SACD player via the DVD-DSD discs, but other than Korg and Tascam units (which aren't designed primarily for playback) I know of no other non-Sony devices that can play DSD files (other than hi-end, pro-audio devices) .

I can understand why SACDs are protected, but what's the harm in being able to stream DSD files I've created myself to a DSD capable DAC? I hope this can happen someday, and we get TRULY universal digital players.
Old 23rd June 2010
  #34
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Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
dont get more affordable than free..


DVD audio Tools

http://24bit.turtleside.com/DVD-Audiofile0.60.win.zip
Old 23rd June 2010
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Ray View Post
Nice link to have - seems they have some interesting menu creation options available in this software as well. Definitely seems to be one of those Sourceforge projects where it's a little harder to set up than a lot of commercial software out there - but when I have some time I'll try and check it out.

Also -
Just noticed that Cirlinca's HD Audio Solo Ultra got updated to version 3 with support for Blu-Ray "music disc" (which allows for uncompressed hi-res PCM even for surround), Windows 7 support, and I believe some improved options for its slide show creation as well. Haven't tried the new version yet - but for a $25 upgrade charge seems it likely will be worth it -
http://www.cirlinca.com

I've yet to have any client actually order a hybrid DVD-Audio/DVD-Video music disc from me - but it certainly is nice to have a cheap option of taking home a way to play mixes and masters at hi-res away from a DAW.

Anyone here that's actually authored for a DVD-Audio release for any client in the past year??

At least I'm getting more requests to do things like encode for hi-res flac downloads.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 23rd June 2010
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
Nice link to have - seems they have some interesting menu creation options available in this software as well. Definitely seems to be one of those Sourceforge projects where it's a little harder to set up than a lot of commercial software out there - but when I have some time I'll try and check it out.

Also -
Just noticed that Cirlinca's HD Audio Solo Ultra got updated to version 3 with support for Blu-Ray "music disc" (which allows for uncompressed hi-res PCM even for surround), Windows 7 support, and I believe some improved options for its slide show creation as well. Haven't tried the new version yet - but for a $25 upgrade charge seems it likely will be worth it -
Solo DVD-Audio authoring - Author DVD at the best audio quality

I've yet to have any client actually order a hybrid DVD-Audio/DVD-Video music disc from me - but it certainly is nice to have a cheap option of taking home a way to play mixes and masters at hi-res away from a DAW.

Anyone here that's actually authored for a DVD-Audio release for any client in the past year??

At least I'm getting more requests to do things like encode for hi-res flac downloads.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
It is very nice, Mr. Berson. I know the guy that wrote the "DVD Audiofile" progam. I have been using that applet for 6 years or so, mainly for home listening. (I did a lot of classical recording at the time, and even though my clients wanted Redbook, I always burned a high resolution DVDA to listen on my very nice Hifi System)
Old 23rd June 2010
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Ray View Post

Is there also any free software available to create hi-res audio DVDs that play 96/24 audio on regular DVD players? (Neil Young released these in his Greatest Hits and Archives Vol 1.)
Old 23rd June 2010
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astralplayin View Post
Is there also any free software available to create hi-res audio DVDs that play 96/24 audio on regular DVD players? (Neil Young released these in his Greatest Hits and Archives Vol 1.)
Cirlinca's offering can do this and at $65 is pretty cheap considering the other options.

If you have video editing software that can create DVD-Video ISO images already it would be easy enough to burn these to disc using any of the various freeware ROM burning apps out there as well - it just would take a few more steps than with something like the Cirlinca software.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 24th June 2010
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
Cirlinca's offering can do this and at $65 is pretty cheap considering the other options.
Great, thanks.
Old 24th June 2010
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astralplayin View Post
Is there also any free software available to create hi-res audio DVDs that play 96/24 audio on regular DVD players? (Neil Young released these in his Greatest Hits and Archives Vol 1.)
Yes.

40 bucks. Free trial.

Audio DVD Creator - Create your own music DVD and enjoy it on any DVD player!
Old 28th June 2010
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by glassmaster View Post
In the early days of DVD, authoring packages were much more expensive than this! And a fully featured DVD-A package like the top-of-the-line Diskwelder is comparably priced (give or take).
DiscWelder Chrome is now obsoleted by Minnetonka Audio, and was *never* full featured in the first place, and was about half the price of the package discussed here in the second place.
The only full featured DVD-Audio authoring application was MEI's DVD-Audio Creator (also licensed by Sonic for a while).

Moving swiftly along.
DVD-Video with 24/96 Stereo audio never took off because this is not a mandatory format for DVD-Video. It is optionally supported - read "unsupported" in cheap players. The specs are confusing, but what they actually state is support for LPCM from 16/48 up to 24/96. The only mandatory stream is 16/48 stereo - all others may not play back as intended - I have players that truncate to 16 bits by decimation, and resample to 48k on the fly, and some do both.

What you really need to do this properly is to firstly work out what you want to release (and I ma not being facetious here, honestly).
If you have just stereo content, you may want to consider doing a properly created DVD-A/V hybrid disc. This will play on all DVD players in one form or another.
Set up the Audio_TS section with your 24/96 stereo.
Set up your Video_TS with 24/96 if you must, but I would further recommend a separate stream at 24/48 or even 16/48 to be certain. You are much more likely to get away with 24/48 than 24/96.......although again I have a player here that outputs 16/96 maximum - go figure!

The hardest part of hybrids like this is getting the Video_TS imported into the Audio authoring system, as the specs state that all VTS titles shall be pointed from the AMG of the Audio_TS - and this is awkward because of restrictions in the Video_TS authoring when the intended target is a DVDA.

A good compromise solution would be a DVD-V disc with multiple streams - put the High Rez stream in there by all means, but also put in a spec stream, just in case.....
We generally tend to go with 24/48 LPCM stereo or 16/48 LPCM stereo.
Surround will always be DTS, never Dolby Digital.

PS..
Here's a thought.
If you have access to a DTS encoder, you can take a 24/88.2 stereo stream and encode this to DTS-WAV. This will go onto an ordinary Audio CD, as the header is fudged to make it look like a 16/44.1 LPCM stream. Plays back beautifully through a DTS decoder.
Old 13th July 2010
  #42
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Hi ! It`s Digital SACD RIP !!!
Услышать SACD с компа?
Call to arms - Manowar
http://depositfiles.com/files/kioc67s35

For a Few Dollars More movie theme - Morricone
http://depositfiles.com/files/t9ro00tah

Ария Тиманта ("Misero Pargoletto") из оперы "Демофонт" - Березовский http://depositfiles.com/files/6bwddayem

Player: Foobar2000 http://www.foobar2000.org + plugin foobar2000: Components Repository - DSDIFF Decoder
Old 13th July 2010
  #43
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I had forgotten about the DSD encoder in foobar.
Old 14th July 2010
  #44
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discWelder STEEL from Minnetonka Audio Software is capable of converting DSDIFF files (the file type for DSD Audio) to high resolution LPCM files. One could create a "reference" DVD-Audio/Video disc containing those files for playback on many consumer hybrid DVD-Audio/DVD-Video/SACD players. It wouldn't take into account any SACD features other than audio, but it would allow a client to "preview" (albeit in high resolution PCM format) their album prior to manufacturing.

Chris
Old 14th July 2010
  #45
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I've done quite a few of those, using WaveLab and more recently, just creating DTS-CDs. Mostly, it's for when clients want to hear the entire album in context, including edits and crossfades, etc.

With BluRay now, it's much easier to deliver a ref disc that's really close™ but DTS-capable DVD players are everywhere...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler View Post
discWelder STEEL from Minnetonka Audio Software is capable of converting DSDIFF files (the file type for DSD Audio) to high resolution LPCM files. One could create a "reference" DVD-Audio/Video disc containing those files for playback on many consumer hybrid DVD-Audio/DVD-Video/SACD players. It wouldn't take into account any SACD features other than audio, but it would allow a client to "preview" (albeit in high resolution PCM format) their album prior to manufacturing.

Chris
Old 15th July 2010
  #46
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The differences between SACD and PCM are not supremely useful in music. Sure, SACD format plays 20hz to 40khz, and has like and extra 30db of dynamic range - but how much music has enough crest to make that extra dynamic range useful - AND who can hear up to 40khz (I don't wanna hear any of that ultrasonic artifacts crap anyway).

Pyramix does support DSD and DXD, and SACD image burning.
Old 18th July 2010
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville
The differences between SACD and PCM are not supremely useful in music.
Sure, unless you like your music to sound as good as possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville
Sure, SACD format plays 20hz to 40khz, and has like and extra 30db of dynamic range - but how much music has enough crest to make that extra dynamic range useful - AND who can hear up to 40khz (I don't wanna hear any of that ultrasonic artifacts crap anyway).
Doesn't matter how or why it works. What matters is that SACD's sound WAY better than the CD version.
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Old 20th July 2010
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Sure, unless you like your music to sound as good as possible.




Doesn't matter how or why it works. What matters is that SACD's sound WAY better than the CD version.
thumbsup
Old 20th July 2010
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Sure, unless you like your music to sound as good as possible.




Doesn't matter how or why it works. What matters is that SACD's sound WAY better than the CD version.
Is it so? How did you make sure what you compared was not different masters? This is often the case which easily can be seen by a quick analysis.

And then the usual stuff... level matching and blind test rounds.. ;-)

I also have some stuff that sounds better on the SACD-layer than the CD-layer or old CD-releases. However when the SACD layer is looped thru a good PCM AD/DA the sound is the same.


/Peter
Old 21st July 2010
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Is it so? How did you make sure what you compared was not different masters? This is often the case which easily can be seen by a quick analysis.

And then the usual stuff... level matching and blind test rounds.. ;-)

I also have some stuff that sounds better on the SACD-layer than the CD-layer or old CD-releases. However when the SACD layer is looped thru a good PCM AD/DA the sound is the same.


/Peter

I have taken and will be glad to take a blind test with you any day of the week. The properly done SACDs sound much better than redbook.

(the recent Living Stereo Reissues for example)
Old 21st July 2010
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Ray View Post
I have taken and will be glad to take a blind test with you any day of the week. The properly done SACDs sound much better than redbook.

(the recent Living Stereo Reissues for example)
Are you sure that the master have been identical for both versions in those listening sessions?


/Peter
Old 21st July 2010
  #52
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A few of us here use DSD format to print analog mixes and for mastering. Even converting PCM files (any rate, even DXD = 352.8k PCM) to DSDIFF (before processing and than back thereafter) is mostly preferred. Basically, converting a CD to DSD sounds "better" than the original file to me... played back on Korg MR1000, Genex 9048, Pyramix... it may be a matter of taste, but virtually everybody who heard the comparison agreed, for what that's worth.
Personally, I convert the entire project to DSD before mixing (analog), print the mix in DSD, master analog in DSD, any dig. processing still DSDIFF, then convert to 44/32 PCM and dither to 16 bit.
Occasionally while mixing I might keep some tracks in DXD format, which sounds more forward, compressed and thinner than DSDIFF , if that's what suits better...
Equally, sometimes (rarely) DXD playback sounds "better" and may be preferred to DSD in mastering, but 9 out of 10 times it's DSDIFF for me. It is purely a creative decision, like choosing a different compressor or eq... whatever gets me closer to what I want to hear as end result.

The bottom line is, the two formats sound very different and once you had the experience with both it is very easy to tell in a blind test as well.
A bit like tape vs PCM....
Old 22nd July 2010
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Are you sure that the master have been identical for both versions in those listening sessions?


/Peter

Yep. At least according to the literature.
Old 22nd July 2010
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabian View Post
A few of us here use DSD format to print analog mixes and for mastering. Even converting PCM files (any rate, even DXD = 352.8k PCM) to DSDIFF

now, I dont understand how that could be true. any benefits that DSD gives are lost when the HF noise present in the source hits a 2nd analogue delta sigma modulator.

it is only useful when mastering from analogue, straight onto a DSD disk.
Old 22nd July 2010
  #55
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Re: DSD versus LPCM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storyville View Post
...SACD format plays 20hz to 40khz, and has like and extra 30db of dynamic range - but how much music has enough crest to make that extra dynamic range useful - AND who can hear up to 40khz (I don't wanna hear any of that ultrasonic artifacts crap anyway).

I'm under the impression that DSD is actually lower fidelity than highest-res LPCM.

Dan Lavry writes, "...[DSD contains] a lot of very high frequency noise (from around 22KH to 1.4MHZ).
"[This gets filtered out to avoid frying] a lot of expansive twitters." (;

He also explains that "The dynamic range of DSD is around 18 bits."

The thing that made it look good in the '90's was that it had linear steps, unlike LPCM. But this has been sorted in LPCM converters by now. And the dynamic range of LPCM is now superior to that of DSD (127 dB* versus 120?).


*http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folder.../pcm1792a.html

Andrew
Old 22nd July 2010
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Ray View Post
Yep. At least according to the literature.
Would be interesting to see crest factor and a spectral plot of actual material instead of relying on what some litterature says. I also wonder if you listened on the same CD/SACD-player and how closely you matched playback levels?

I also thought SACD sounded better than PCM (on my records and players) until I did some loop tests via a PCM AD/DA. Whatever goodies I heard from the SACD layer it still was there after PCM loop.

On some players the SACD layer is played back at a slightly higher level so just flipping between SACD and redbook mode with a dual layer disc will not give you anything of value.


/Peter
Old 22nd July 2010
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabian View Post
Basically, converting a CD to DSD sounds "better" than the original file to me... played back on Korg MR1000, Genex 9048, Pyramix... it may be a matter of taste, but virtually everybody who heard the comparison agreed, for what that's worth.
That is suspicious to say the least.

Alistair
Old 22nd July 2010
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
That is suspicious to say the least.

Alistair
Is stating that the two files sound different suspicious or that the converted file might be preferred to the original?

Call me mad but I've been upsampling to 192k for years before switching to DSD. If I remember correctly Cranesong Avocet's DAC upsamples to 192k...?

I am talking about playing different formats back from Pyramix through the same hardware (Genex 9048), or playback from Genex or even Korg MR1000. I first heard DSD on the Korg so if you have one around try converting a PCM file to DSDIFF and see what you think... A few guys I know who mix analogue are printing their mixes in DSD on MR1000 or MR2000 now, sending me DSDIFF files for mastering. Although cheap, these Korgs in DSD sound way better than a lot of "pro" converters out there...


Of course I track in DSD now (used to @ 192k/32bit), which is really where it matters the most. Converting to DSD whatever comes in as PCM is still worth doing IMO. As said, it could be a matter of taste, the bottom line is it DOES sound different so as usual - if I hear the difference I choose what I prefer, sometimes PCM... without need of scientific approval. Think of it as additional creative processing. Some bounce to tape in mastering...

I was aware of the controversy potential of my previous post... apologies if I accidentally started another PCM vs DSD/SACD debate, it would be a shame and not very useful.... except maybe for those who actually care to hear the difference for themselves and make their own informed conclusions. I can see some preferring PCM though, that's what we're used to nowadays. Except
I used to have a 2" and was quietly missing it until I discovered DSD...
Old 23rd July 2010
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
Anyone here that's actually authored for a DVD-Audio release for any client in the past year??
Best regards,
Steve Berson
Several.
Porcupine Tree's "The Incident",
Dorothee Munyaneza "Self-Titled" debut,
King Crimson's "In The Court Of The Crimson King", "Lizard" & "Red".
Anathema's "We're Here Because We're Here"

If I go back another year or two, there are the following:
Porcupine Tree "Stupid Dream", "Lightbulb Sun", "Fear Of A Blank Planet"
Steven Wilson "Insurgentes" (2 different editions)
No-Man "Together We're Stranger" and "Schoolyard Ghosts".
6 soundtracks/compilations for Yash Raj Films and lots more besides

We've got an awful lot more in the pipeline as well.

DSD is a strange thing to my ears (and mind).
Pure DSD is one thing used (as designed) as an archival format, but SACD uses heroic noise shaping to make the 1-bit system listenable, and all there is above 23k is noise. Lots & lots of noise.

Now, I fully understand that we don't use high sample rates for the extended frequency response. If that were true, and we do hear above 23k, SACD would be unlistenable unless you filtered - heavily. Which would of course introduce it's own set of issues.

All the talk of Sony being "worried" about DVD-A's copy protection was nonsense too - Watermarking works seriously well, has never been breached & cannot be removed.
Unlike AACS & BD+ on Blu Ray disc.....
Old 23rd July 2010
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabian View Post
Is stating that the two files sound different suspicious or that the converted file might be preferred to the original?
The fact that it sounds different is suspicious. If the format is so superior, it should be absolutely true to the original. Unless it is just the converters that sound different which is not the same thing as the format sounding different.

Quote:
I am talking about playing different formats back from Pyramix through the same hardware (Genex 9048), or playback from Genex or even Korg MR1000.
That could just be their implementation of the different formats. It could even be something as simple as a difference in the output level when switching formats. (Also called shenanigans).

Quote:
Think of it as additional creative processing. Some bounce to tape in mastering...
Are you saying that inserting the DSD equipment in a signal will make it sound better (to your ears)? Have you tried inserting it in, let's say, the mix-bus of an analogue console and listening to the difference it imparts to the signal? Do you prefer the DSD encoded/decoded signal over the original analogue signal?

Alistair
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