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mastering daw DAW Software
Old 24th May 2006
  #1
Gear Nut
 

mastering daw

hi guys can u recomend a hi end mastering daw to go with my pthd2 system.
as far as quality(hi end) and work flow capability with pt i have about 15,000 to spend and hoping to throw some reference monitors in as well. thksheh
Old 24th May 2006
  #2
Gear Addict
 

Well as far as high-end DAW's go, you have Sequoia, SADiE and Pyramix. You don't say if that $15k includes everything. If that is what you'll spend on your DAW, then get a SADiE system. You'll have to spend at least $5k for monitors. Sequoia and Pyramix are about $3k. You'll need to spend more money for decent AD-DA converters. But.. the most important thing? You'll need to spend at least $15k on your room acoustics. Other than the ME's ears, the room and monitors are the most important thing!

Regards,
Bruce
Old 24th May 2006
  #3
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jayfrigo's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexxon
hi guys can u recomend a hi end mastering daw to go with my pthd2 system.
as far as quality(hi end) and work flow capability with pt i have about 15,000 to spend and hoping to throw some reference monitors in as well. thksheh
Do you want to capture and process in the mastering DAW, or just use the PTHD for that and have a mastering app for CD and DDP prep? Sonic Studio has PMCD and DDP apps for reasonable money if you just want to add on to your PT rig.

If you want a full-featured mastering DAW, as has been mentioned, Sequoia, Pyramix, and Sadie are all good options. Sonic Studio's Soundblade was shown at AES Paris and a 6 week delivery date was given. This app is around $1500 I think, or around $3K if bundled with the hardware. However, it's only stereo, so no surround. The next app up the ladder with multichannel support won't be released for a while yet.
Old 24th May 2006
  #4
Gear Nut
 

mastering daw

thanks for the info guy i think i just want to extend the mastering abilities of the pthd rig. i like the info you just gave me.

i will consider the moniters and some combinations of outboard and digital to extend mastering out of pt's. i just never seen a mastering house with protools as it daw for mastering. is it possible to master hi -quality in pro tools and what woulkd i need beside room treat5ment and ada converters. whixh i alrady have.

ua2192 tracking, crane hedd 192, mixing and mastering and manley mari vu and rhe mastering slam.

thnks
Old 24th May 2006
  #5
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexxon
. i just never seen a mastering house with protools as it daw for mastering. is it possible to master hi -quality in pro tools and what woulkd i need beside room treat5ment and ada converters. whixh i alrady have.
thnks
I have an HD Accel 4 rig for Post that I tried in my Mastering Room. The converters are just not up to the Prisims and Lavry Gold's and such. Also you can not zoom in on a wave form and know if it's clipping or not. There are a lot of better programs for Mastering than trying to use a Tracking/Mixing program. Plus you still need another program for CD/DVD authoring. Just my 2cents.

Regards,
Bruce
Old 25th May 2006
  #6
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Darius van H's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexxon
thanks for the info guy i think i just want to extend the mastering abilities of the pthd rig. i like the info you just gave me.

i will consider the moniters and some combinations of outboard and digital to extend mastering out of pt's. i just never seen a mastering house with protools as it daw for mastering. is it possible to master hi -quality in pro tools and what woulkd i need beside room treat5ment and ada converters. whixh i alrady have.

ua2192 tracking, crane hedd 192, mixing and mastering and manley mari vu and rhe mastering slam.

thnks
You can do your signal processing in PT (with plugins or outboard), then export the files to Samplitude Classic (around $400 i believe) where you can sequence them with fades, add your PQ codes (tracks starts and pauses) and ISRC codes and burn! - you'll need a cheap PC to run Samplitude on. So the first investment needed to actually create masters is around $700.......you could also do all your mastering in Samplitude but you wouldn't have all your favorite PT plugins available except as outboard processing.

To be honest, you sound pretty green on the subject of mastering so i wouldn't blow your cash all at once - start slowly and buy the stuff when you realize you need it - On the other hand, if you're minted, go for it
Old 25th May 2006
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius van H
You can do your signal processing in PT (with plugins or outboard), then export the files to Samplitude Classic (around $400 i believe) where you can sequence them with fades, add your PQ codes (tracks starts and pauses) and ISRC codes and burn! - you'll need a cheap PC to run Samplitude on. So the first investment needed to actually create masters is around $700.......you could also do all your mastering in Samplitude but you wouldn't have all your favorite PT plugins available except as outboard processing.
Unfortunately, Samplitude Classic is missing the POWr dither/noise shaping stuff. But you can get a version of Samplitude that has it for not much more.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Old 26th May 2006
  #8
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Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick
Unfortunately, Samplitude Classic is missing the POWr dither/noise shaping stuff. But you can get a version of Samplitude that has it for not much more.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Hi.

I'm running Samp V8.3 Classic. It has POWr.

Cheers,

Haigbabe
Old 26th May 2006
  #9
Gear Addict
 

http://www.samplitude.com/de/versions8.htm

Samp has a mastering version but curiously it does not include Pow-R. But their native triangle dither sounds darn good.
Old 29th May 2006
  #10
Gear Head
 

Ive been running Pyramix for about 5 years. Sounds beautiful but has had bugs of various types ever since the beginning and is not as intuitive as I'd like. Still works though and has awesome fades. Very clearly more transparent sounding than Samplitude Pro, Sound Forge or Nuendo. I can say that because I have those other programs here too. If I were getting a PC system from scratch I'd check out Sequoia first.

Colin
Old 29th May 2006
  #11
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T.RayBullard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sekim
http://www.samplitude.com/de/versions8.htm

Samp has a mastering version but curiously it does not include Pow-R. But their native triangle dither sounds darn good.
I prefer the trangular much more than POW-R some days..

Pyramix is definitely not as intuitive as Samp/Sequoia.. I didnt Pyramix being any more transparent either, but YMMV.
Old 1st June 2006
  #12
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FunkFaker's Avatar
 

how does Bias Peak fit into the DAW equation?

i've always wondered what the difference was between peak and sadie, et al.

Old 1st June 2006
  #13
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkFaker
how does Bias Peak fit into the DAW equation?

i've always wondered what the difference was between peak and sadie, et al.


If mastering was just about transferring files with high integrity and cutting a CDR, then I guess Peak would do. But when you have to do a little mixing, make invisible edits easily, route multiple feeds to multiple places, and do this routing while cutting a CDR... that's where Sequoia and SADie excel.
Old 3rd June 2006
  #14
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Improv's Avatar
 

I've often heard how great Sequoia, Samplitude, and Pyramix are for mastering. But what do these really bring to the party other than built-in CD mastering? As far as sound quality, are these really an improvement over PTHD? If so, in what way? Plugins, summing (though this should be rather moot at the mastering stage), sample rate conversion?... what is it that makes these the usual suspects?
Old 3rd June 2006
  #15
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improv
I've often heard how great Sequoia, Samplitude, and Pyramix are for mastering. But what do these really bring to the party other than built-in CD mastering? As far as sound quality, are these really an improvement over PTHD? If so, in what way? Plugins, summing (though this should be rather moot at the mastering stage), sample rate conversion?... what is it that makes these the usual suspects?

Data integrity and the way they handle dither. But even that can be dealt with reasonably in PT with plugins. I think the main reasons for dedicated mastering DAWs, apart from data integrity (and as I say, PT has sufficient data integrity at this point) and integrated PQ are:

1) Incredible editing flexibilty, expecially the extremely versatile crossfades, all calculated in real time (not rendered). Selection and editing facility in Sadie or Sequoia have to be seen to be believed. Saves time and is very ergonomic. Especially Sequoia's object-oriented editing.

2) ability to do crescendos and decrescendos with the crossfades instead of trying to draw volume changes. It is far smoother and more predictable than dealing with PT's rubber bands.

3) ability to integrate files of all types in the same edl.... multiple wordlengths and formats. This is very important in mastering. 24 bit, 16 bit, 32 float, BWF, WAV, AIFF, etc. all in the same session. And this is totally drag and drop with INSTANT waveform creation. No waiting for conversion or a prolonged process BEFORE you can insert a file into an EDL. Time is money. This is very important.

4) The insertion points for the dithering are unambiguous
Old 3rd June 2006
  #16
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
PTHD works just peachy for us. WaveBurner to assemble and burn.

PT is the Swiss Army Knife for us, it'll do most anything but burn discs.

That's the only real catch in the PT mastering workflow scenario.

Also considering the -addition- of Sonic's PMCD or Soundblade when released.

I think it's just different strokes at this point.

JT
Old 3rd June 2006
  #17
Gear Addict
 
zenmastering's Avatar
Something not mentioned so far is editing...

Pyramix, Sadie, Sequoia and Sonic all have a *much* better editing paradigm than PT. If you haven't gotten used to editing on one of these systems then you don't know what you're missing.

For me, a strong editing interface is necessary in a mastering DAW. If it wasn't, I'd just use WaveLab (which is good in all other areas.)

Back on the sound quality issue - the summing in a mastering daw *is* important and this is another place where PT doesn't measure up to the above-mentioned DAWs. I've tested this to my own satisfaction.

SRC quality is very good and built-in plug-ins are much better than the stock PT offerings.

And of course, just my opinions...

Graemme
Old 4th June 2006
  #18
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Improv's Avatar
 

Can someone define the core idea of object-oriented editing? The only system I've used that's different than the Pro-Tools paradigm is Sonic Solutions. Set your source in and out points and then a destination point sorta thing? Is that it?
Old 4th June 2006
  #19
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Masterer's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improv
Can someone define the core idea of object-oriented editing? The only system I've used that's different than the Pro-Tools paradigm is Sonic Solutions. Set your source in and out points and then a destination point sorta thing? Is that it?
The difference is not so much in the editing. In Sequoia for instance plugins can be on a track OR applied [both actually] to a segment of audio [object oriented proccessing?]. The plugins will "follow" that segment around. You can have many different plugin settings for different segments all on the same track. This is much more flexible than the way PT or Sonic Solutions works.
Old 4th June 2006
  #20
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer
The difference is not so much in the editing. In Sequoia for instance plugins can be on a track OR applied [both actually] to a segment of audio [object oriented proccessing?]. The plugins will "follow" that segment around. You can have many different plugin settings for different segments all on the same track. This is much more flexible than the way PT or Sonic Solutions works.
Just as a point of information, WaveBurner, a very comprehensive and professional stereo sequencing program for those who use MAC, has the same plug-in/region capabilities as you describe above. However, it does not appear to be designed for heavy duty editing.

I personally don't use WB as a mastering program but find the region/plug-in insert function helpful from time to time when I use it as a sequencer and it is the perfect companion for those who use Pro Tools as a mastering program.
Old 5th June 2006
  #21
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T.RayBullard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Improv
Can someone define the core idea of object-oriented editing? The only system I've used that's different than the Pro-Tools paradigm is Sonic Solutions. Set your source in and out points and then a destination point sorta thing? Is that it?
Object based editing: when you load audio into the program, you're not actually working directly with the source file, but rather with an object that represents that file. These objects look and act just like the original audio; you can cut, chop, process and otherwise manipulate the file — all in real time — and the changes are processed on the fly while leaving the source material untouched. I would never dream of using another DAW...Sequoia/Samplitude is the ticket!
Old 5th June 2006
  #22
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Improv's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.RayBullard
Object based editing: when you load audio into the program, you're not actually working directly with the source file, but rather with an object that represents that file. These objects look and act just like the original audio; you can cut, chop, process and otherwise manipulate the file — all in real time — and the changes are processed on the fly while leaving the source material untouched. I would never dream of using another DAW...Sequoia/Samplitude is the ticket!

Well, I get the clip-based effects and that would be cool (always liked that about cheapo Tracktion), but other than the fact that PT's fades are rendered, everythying else about it seems pretty much object-oriented. I'm not trying to be pedantic here, just want to be clear on the distinctions.
Old 5th June 2006
  #23
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Silvertone's Avatar
[QUOTE=jayfrigo]Do you want to capture and process in the mastering DAW, or just use the PTHD for that and have a mastering app for CD and DDP prep? Sonic Studio has PMCD and DDP apps for reasonable money if you just want to add on to your PT rig.

I'm reviewing Sonic's Premaster CD right now. Super duper easy to use program. Should be out in the next issue of Tape-Op.
Old 5th June 2006
  #24
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I would say the difference between Samplitude and Sequoia's object based editing and much of the competition's clip based or region based editing is the way that it works when transitioning between sections. Quite simply, you have the ability to fade smoothly between sections. If you have a 6 second fade to bring in a high pass filter (as I do with much of my concert mastering when I have to fade in or out of a soft passage and there is rumble in the room), you can do this with a much smoother sound than if you are trying to automate the fade.

It is also nice that it is latency compensated as well so I could go from a very latent powercore-based plug to a native non-latent plug with no glitches.

--Ben
Old 6th June 2006
  #25
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle
I would say the difference between Samplitude and Sequoia's object based editing and much of the competition's clip based or region based editing is the way that it works when transitioning between sections. Quite simply, you have the ability to fade smoothly between sections. If you have a 6 second fade to bring in a high pass filter (as I do with much of my concert mastering when I have to fade in or out of a soft passage and there is rumble in the room), you can do this with a much smoother sound than if you are trying to automate the fade.

It is also nice that it is latency compensated as well so I could go from a very latent powercore-based plug to a native non-latent plug with no glitches.

--Ben
Sadie is not object-based, but each object (clip) has and retains all the automation for all the plugs on a strip. If you move the clip to another location or another strip, all the automation (static and dynamic) for that clip moves with it, and if you move it to a strip that does not have a particular plugin on it, the automation information for that plug goes "dormant" until you need it again. And the crossfade between parameters works with the crossfade between clips same as in Sequoia. So, SADiE is "almost" there. The only difference I see is that SADiE's mixer contains the physical plugins and the plugins are not "attached" to the clip itself. In SADiE you can also automate and include plugins on I/O inserts and aux sends/returns not directly attached to a clip... would like to know how that's done in Sequoia.

BK
Old 6th June 2006
  #26
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TinderArts's Avatar
 

There are inserts available on all mixer tracks in SAM/SEQ in addition to the object based plugins.

When working in surround, each object can also be assigned surround panning (great for 5.1 mixing/mastering).

One of the best uses of object based editing/processing is that you only use CPU cycles for object plugins when the object plays. It gives you much more flexibilty in CPU overhead without having to freeze or bounce.
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