The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Vinyl cutters: can you get a decent cut from a loud CD master? Multi-Ef­fects Plugins
Old 31st January 2012
  #1
Gear maniac
 
tonmeister's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Vinyl cutters: can you get a decent cut from a loud CD master?

I have a band who had their CD mastered by a top New York mastering engineer, but now a year later they want to release it on Vinyl.
Can you get an acceptable cut from a loud master like this?
I expect it's a bad idea due to over-limiting.
Old 31st January 2012
  #2
Lives for gear
 
huejahfink's Avatar
 

Verified Member
You can cut those files, but unlikely to be as good as cutting from a more open source.
I get the idea it's not uncommon (I don't cut myself), however I've heard some pretty decent sounding vinyls cut from pre-limited sources - a skilled cutting engineer can still make it work.
Old 31st January 2012
  #3
Gear Head
 
Gengy's Avatar
 

Verified Member
with proper adjustments you can have a decent record!
Old 31st January 2012
  #4
Gear maniac
 
tonmeister's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
After listening to it, it sounds quite squashed and aesthetically maybe not right for vinyl. A remaster might be on the books.
Old 31st January 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 
huejahfink's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I'd definitely go from the flat mixes if you can! Good luck with it.
Old 31st January 2012
  #6
Lives for gear
 
wado1942's Avatar
 

No, you shouldn't master for vinyl from a CD master. They're two different media with two different sets of needs. The guy making the disk will have to master specifically for that medium regardless of what you send him so it might as well be the source mix right? I've heard plenty of vinyl cut from CD masters and it's not as good as the CD and not nearly as good as the vinyl could be.
Old 31st January 2012
  #7
Lives for gear
 
IIIrd's Avatar
 

Verified Member
No reason why you can't get a decent cut of it...it'll be a good cut of a loud cd master. Better to cut it from an un squashed source of course...cd masters are routinely used though.
Old 31st January 2012
  #8
Gear addict
 
gingataff's Avatar
 

It's probably hard to do well.
FWIW I bought some Devin Townsend LPs a while back that were clearly cut from a CD and sound dreadful, they even fade out/in and the end and beginning of each side. Ugh.
Old 31st January 2012
  #9
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
No, you shouldn't master for vinyl from a CD master. They're two different media with two different sets of needs. The guy making the disk will have to master specifically for that medium regardless of what you send him so it might as well be the source mix right? I've heard plenty of vinyl cut from CD masters and it's not as good as the CD and not nearly as good as the vinyl could be.
Cutting lacquers from the same source as the CD master has been
SOP for many years. Using two sources is a newer trend (fad?).
Optimizing audio is optimizing audio. Bad CD master bad vinyl and vice versa.
You often speak with authority and are off base as far as the facts.
Old 31st January 2012
  #10
Lives for gear
 
IIIrd's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabmaster View Post
Cutting lacquers from the same source as the CD master has been
SOP for many years. Using two sources is a newer trend (fad?).
Optimizing audio is optimizing audio. Bad CD master bad vinyl and vice versa.
You often speak with authority and are off base as far as the facts.
Well, using two sources as been the norm here for a long while. I speak for stuff I master myself and it's the way I was taught. Stuff supplied is another matter as you use what you're given. I have rejected stuff though and asked if a non limited version was available, we do have that course of action. As an engineer it's for me to advise my client accordingly.
Old 31st January 2012
  #11
Gear maniac
 

Haven't mastering engineers been using EQ, compression and limiting
since the beginning? Isn't that the point of mastering? Optimizing the source
for the medium? Who's to say the the processing for digital won't work optimally for vinyl release? If the engineer isn't stomping the life out of the source material, then the engineer isn't stomping the life out of the source material(.)
Old 31st January 2012
  #12
Lives for gear
 
wado1942's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabmaster View Post
Isn't that the point of mastering? Optimizing the source for the medium?
EXACTLY! How can the needs of vinyl possibly be exactly the same as that of CD or cassette for that matter? They're not even the same for AAC and CD, which are much closer in nature.

I speak with authority (as you say) on such subjects because I happen to know a bit about them. Vinyl requires processing that CD doesn't, such as gradually pulling back the level & compensating for HF response as the stylus approaches the center of the disk or narrowing the LF separation if it's too extreme. Vinyl needs a lot more compromises if you try to cram too much material on it.

In the early days of CD, it was routine to just take the vinyl master and copy it to PCM. This did not yield ideal results and consumers complained about it. At one point, one could take a good CD master and tweak it for vinyl, but that's mastering a master and not as good as going straight to the mix.

Nowadays with clipping and brick-wall limiting being routine, new problems have been created. You can't expect a stylus to instantaneously go from near-maximum velocity to a dead standstill, hold in place for a few milliseconds and jump back the other direction. If the CD master was distorted, the vinyl master will be a lot more distorted. Brick-wall limiting isn't as offensive, but there isn't an absolute ceiling with vinyl as in CD. Overall level is more important and excessive limiting won't get you much for level on vinyl, so you're just working against yourself. Sure, you can take a mildly limited master and master it for vinyl, but again, that's not as good as going straight to the mix. Besides, how many CD masters are MILDLY limited these days?

For the record (no pun intended) the best vinyl album I've heard to date had no limiting at all, but it was 15 minutes per side.
Old 31st January 2012
  #13
Gear maniac
 

^ What is "LPI" as it relates to disk cutting?

To the OP:

If you approved the EQ for the CD then you will like the vinyl as well.
Old 31st January 2012
  #14
Lives for gear
 

The entire point of loudenation on a CD is to make it as loud or louder than other digital files.

Records don't work that way. At all.

On a record you can do things like shortening the playing time to cut a louder groove. My MGMT album that was crammed onto a single record is quiet as balls compared to various albums I own that were split on to two records.

So you have these modern mastering techniques that are developed and based on a medium with a hard level ceiling. The techniques are only good for creeping up to that ceiling and harm the sound otherwise. Then you're going to take that master and stick it on to a format that doesn't even have a hard ceiling to creep up to.

In a purely "it can work" sort of way, yeah...it can work. But in a logical way it doesn't make a lick a' sense. And it certainly won't sound its best.
Old 31st January 2012
  #15
Lives for gear
 
wado1942's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabmaster View Post
To the OP:

If you approved the EQ for the CD then you will like the vinyl as well.
Not necessarily. The audio content as a whole needs to fall within the limitations of the disk. Too much high end = distortion, too much bass = stylus jumping the groove. That may require extra EQ the CD didn't have. On top of that, you naturally loose high end as the stylus reaches the center of the disk because the linear velocity is slower and the angle of the groove itself is tighter. You can't really just boost it back or distortion will increase. It takes a skilled hand to hide these facts, and they can be hidden somewhat, but the sound WILL be different.
Old 1st February 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Adam Dempsey's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Neil Young: "Jobs listened to vinyl"

I'm doing another such a job this week... you may hear their previous single on the re-worked '90210' series. They didn't have the budget to remaster from scratch for vinyl (pardon the pun) so I'll be re-EQ'ing the 24 bit masters a touch and adding a B-side previously released on 7 inch. None were slammed anyway. But yes side length can more commonly play a role, as well as minimizing side length differences and/or (less common) putting ballads or tracks with less HF energy towards the end of each side.

Not unrelated: Neil Young: Steve Jobs listened to vinyl
"Steve Jobs was a pioneer of digital music. His legacy is tremendous," Young said on Tuesday in the US. "But when he went home, he listened to vinyl [albums]."
Old 18th September 2013
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Filthrill's Avatar
 

I have a mastering for vinyl job coming up soon. I don't own a vinyl lathe.

Okay, so no more than 15 minutes per side, right? How many seconds are u guys leaving between songs? And in what way is the final mastered files delivered to the vinyl cutter? Is it basically 2 long wave files (one for each side of the record) already sequenced for the cutter?
Old 18th September 2013
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Paul Gold's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmeister View Post
After listening to it, it sounds quite squashed and aesthetically maybe not right for vinyl. A remaster might be on the books.
If you don't like the sound vinyl won't fix it. If you want what's there transferred it will probably work out okay.

Side lengths depend on expectations. If it's an LP and you don't need a loud record then 20:00-22:00 should be fine assuming it's going to be cut on a system with pitch/depth automation. For fixed pitch I'd keep it around 18:00. Time between songs doesn't matter as long as the log is accurate. You can have crossfades.
Old 18th September 2013
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
In the early days of CD, it was routine to just take the vinyl master and copy it to PCM. This did not yield ideal results and consumers complained about it.
.
It was standard practice and the consumers thought the CD's were great, flying off the shelves.
Do you really think consumers are not complaining now? Music buyers are staying away in droves.
About the less than "ideal results", do you have some examples ?
Old 19th September 2013
  #20
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
No, you shouldn't master for vinyl from a CD master. They're two different media with two different sets of needs. The guy making the disk will have to master specifically for that medium regardless of what you send him so it might as well be the source mix right? I've heard plenty of vinyl cut from CD masters and it's not as good as the CD and not nearly as good as the vinyl could be.
Is hard-limiting or brickwalling one of the CD version's "needs"??
Old 19th September 2013
  #21
Registered User
 

Wado wrote "In the early days of CD, it was routine to just take the vinyl master and copy it to PCM. This did not yield ideal results and consumers complained about it."

WHO?

Most of my collection are from the "early days of CD" and I ain't complaining. If I wanted a brickwall I'd go to Home Depot.
Old 19th September 2013
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Verified Member
I send my clients my master for their digital format minus the loudness processing in 24 bit, that has been keeping cutting engineers happy for years at my end..
Old 19th September 2013
  #23
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_caithness View Post
I send my clients my master for their digital format minus the loudness processing in 24 bit, that has been keeping cutting engineers happy for years at my end..
Now why, please tell, couldn't you just put that - what you described - on the CD as well?? I'd bum a copy of that off you right here on the spot if you would!
Old 23rd September 2013
  #24
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmeister View Post
I have a band who had their CD mastered by a top New York mastering engineer, but now a year later they want to release it on Vinyl.
Can you get an acceptable cut from a loud master like this?
I expect it's a bad idea due to over-limiting.
Bad idea. Maybe works is if the release is very short. But even then, it's not the same as a more dynamic pass.

Be sure you have it cut by someone very good, and use top quality pressing.



If you pick up "Locked Down" by Dr John on CD and Vinyl you can hear what only 1.5db less of limiting can do to a vinyl release.
Old 23rd September 2013
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Filthrill's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_caithness View Post
I send my clients my master for their digital format minus the loudness processing in 24 bit, that has been keeping cutting engineers happy for years at my end..
Sounds logical & makes sense but man, it's a hard one to grasp because the limiting is very much a part of a particular song sometimes w/ some styles of music. Do u think the limiting can be left ON but backed off by a reasonable amount? Or is it just plain & simply not even needed for vinyl?
Old 23rd September 2013
  #26
Lives for gear
 
huejahfink's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filthrill View Post
Sounds logical & makes sense but man, it's a hard one to grasp because the limiting is very much a part of a particular song sometimes w/ some styles of music. Do u think the limiting can be left ON but backed off by a reasonable amount? Or is it just plain & simply not even needed for vinyl?
If it really is part of the mix then leave it on... ie "' it really does sound BETTER like that, and not just LOUDER. "
Old 23rd September 2013
  #27
Gear maniac
 
Owen Gillett's Avatar
 

Yeah exactly. How many styles and songs really are dependent on buss LIMITING??
Old 23rd September 2013
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen Gillett View Post
Yeah exactly. How many styles and songs really are dependent on buss LIMITING??
When you give someone a level matched choice, almost none. They do sound smaller, if that's what they were going for...
Old 23rd September 2013
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Filthrill's Avatar
 

To me limiting can by all means can be a useful flavor. Of course if it's used as a useful flavor lol, which is totally subjective. It can create a "tense" type of sound that could be essential to some songs where sometimes u want exactly that. I'm repeating myself now. I don't think of it as a smaller or bigger sounding type of thing. But it definitely changes the sound & how the song comes across. Obviously w/ those of us that do mastering it's always going to be push pull sort of thing w/ the clients because some of them really don't have a clue.
Old 23rd September 2013
  #30
Gear maniac
 
Owen Gillett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
When you give someone a level matched choice, almost none. They do sound smaller, if that's what they were going for...
My experience would say the same! A good engineer can build a world class mix in any genre without the need for a limiter on the master buss.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
burst / Mastering forum
36
Kris75 / Mastering forum
9
ericdomk / Mastering forum
5
ninjaneer / Mastering forum
10

Forum Jump