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Bob Katz's "K System" - Nuts N' Bolts Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 19th September 2011
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Just sharing our opinions. The basic idea is flawed, is one view. It's not an indicator of quality, is another. It's worse than not using it, yet another.


DC
Completely agree...
Old 19th September 2011
  #62
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Originally Posted by Colin Leonard View Post
Completely agree...
And it's definitely not a meter reading apparent loudness.


DC
Old 21st September 2011
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
The point! K-system is helpful for TRAINNG one's ears. May even cut down "hoping for the best" by waiting 10 years *in the hopes* that you will magically develop golden ears. How? Osmosis? Moreover, you seem not to understand that you're not espousing a technique but promoting faith in blind luck (that nothing is wrong with your ears that day)......
10 years of dedicated, focused work = osmosis? Blind luck?

Use whatever tools you need to help you achieve proficiency but you won't be buying any shortcuts.

Blind faith is believing that using a "system" will get you there any faster.
Old 21st September 2011
  #64
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Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Moreover, you seem not to understand that you're not espousing a technique but promoting faith in blind luck (that nothing is wrong with your ears that day)......
If there's something wrong with my ears I'm either off work sick or my career is over.

King Willy
Old 21st September 2011
  #65
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Originally Posted by William Bowden View Post
If there's something wrong with my ears I'm either off work sick or my career is over.

King Willy
Other than your own personal genius, which I'm certain is as immense as your post suggests, how would you know?
Old 21st September 2011
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer View Post
10 years of dedicated, focused work = osmosis? Blind luck?

Use whatever tools you need to help you achieve proficiency but you won't be buying any shortcuts.

Blind faith is believing that using a "system" will get you there any faster.
Huh? Neither will a refusal to engage with the substantive basis of my argument. Whatever, twiddle knobs, be certain in your own genius (or potential for it), and watch the flowers bow to your toes as you pass them. The rest of us have to work to improve, and to do so we gather any and all information available, evaluate it against logic and practical experience (I've been working in music in some professional capacity or other since 1993), and then go about internalizing what we find valuable. The context of what you cite: contra silly, arrogant anti-intellectualism. I never once advocated *any* system. I simply wrote that the arguments made for rejecting it outright were not immanent. But it doesn't seem like advocates of straightforward listening know how to do just that..... Present an immanent critique of the system or you may as well just say "I don't like it"
Old 21st September 2011
  #67
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... insecure people cannot do this job whether it' called live mixing, mastering etc ._
Old 21st September 2011
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Other than your own personal genius, which I'm certain is as immense as your post suggests, how would you know?
Clients

King Willy
Old 21st September 2011
  #69
PBM
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Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Other than your own personal genius, which I'm certain is as immense as your post suggests, how would you know?
Just a wild guess, but as well as by WB's reputation, I'd suspect just by listening? Like many MEs I have some tracks I listen to every day as the outboard warms up - from Sibelius, through Bill Frisell and Carla Bley to Elbow, even some of my own work of which I am particularly proud - and I'd very quickly spot if there was something amiss.

Anecdotal evidence, and to make this a more generally useful post: last week I had reason to take some powerful pain killers (Tramadol). In the studio the next day I heard something was off at the high end and so stopped work. In that enforced spare time I found this:

Ototoxicity

The damage was temporary and all was well (well, except for the return of the pain) a few days after I took no more pills, but this is scary reading ...

Incidentally, I have no bones to pick with BK - he's a pal and I edited both versions of the book - but I do not use the K-system either. As with a some of the other advice in that book, if you are already an experienced audio engineer it might have varying value. I don't think Bob would take issue with that.

Cheers,

Eric
Old 21st September 2011
  #70
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Originally Posted by minister View Post
Best way to learn a craft is to study the greats of the craft, then try to get your work to compare with theirs. Then develop your own style and sonic imagination.
Indeed!

And Bob, IMO, being one of those greats, a good place to start is Bob Katz 'Mastering Audio ~ the art and the science. Second Edition'. A thoroughly good read. ;-)

Disclaimer: I do not know Bob personally or sell any of his products
Old 21st September 2011
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBM View Post
Just a wild guess, but as well as by WB's reputation, I'd suspect just by listening? Like many MEs I have some tracks I listen to every day as the outboard warms up - from Sibelius, through Bill Frisell and Carla Bley to Elbow, even some of my own work of which I am particularly proud - and I'd very quickly spot if there was something amiss.

Anecdotal evidence, and to make this a more generally useful post: last week I had reason to take some powerful pain killers (Tramadol). In the studio the next day I heard something was off at the high end and so stopped work. In that enforced spare time I found this:

Ototoxicity

The damage was temporary and all was well (well, except for the return of the pain) a few days after I took no more pills, but this is scary reading ...

Incidentally, I have no bones to pick with BK - he's a pal and I edited both versions of the book - but I do not use the K-system either. As with a some of the other advice in that book, if you are already an experienced audio engineer it might have varying value. I don't think Bob would take issue with that.

Cheers,

Eric
Glad to hear your hearing is fine. No offense meant, but you missed the whole point of my critique. I'm not here to push an agenda, so I'm just going to stop posting on this. The whole anti-intellectualism thing is strange, in my opinion. It's like saying I just play what I feel, or I just master what I feel..... If that works for you, fine. But it doesn't mean the K-system or any other system is an obstacle. And the OP was *explanatory*. This forum is so weird! Lol.....
Old 21st September 2011
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
The whole anti-intellectualism thing is strange, in my opinion. It's like saying I just play what I feel, or I just master what I feel.....
Why would you want it any other way? What works for one person is great - for them, but the K system in a mastering context feels like an agenda that has created way more confusion than it's worth.

Kudos for the op for taking the time to give detailed set up instructions. Hopefully that will help the ones with questions.
Old 21st September 2011
  #73
PBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Glad to hear your hearing is fine. No offense meant, but you missed the whole point of my critique.

The whole anti-intellectualism thing is strange, in my opinion.
Thank you - but that was a rather minor point. I was saying that King Willy was right.

Over-intellectualization of an ability is actually more often a problem: if you try to think about the shape your mouth makes as you speak the words you end up talking gibberish.
Old 21st September 2011
  #74
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Originally Posted by PBM View Post
Thank you - but that was a rather minor point. I was saying that King Willy was right.

Over-intellectualization of an ability is actually more often a problem: if you try to think about the shape your mouth makes as you speak the words you end up talking gibberish.
Point taken!
Old 21st September 2011
  #75
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I feel rather inadequate having only a pencil mark against the volume control where it feels right to me, but it still seems to get the job done. I didn't measure at the time I made the mark, although subsequently I've found it corresponds to about mid 70s - early 80s on a sound level meter, depending on material.

I know and like BK from intermittent correspondence over the years and I love his enthusiasm for all things audio, but what seems to work here is having my system, as Einstein put it 'as simple as possible but no simpler', and the the K-system is far too fiddly when the method I already use works fine.
Old 21st September 2011
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Huh? Neither will a refusal to engage with the substantive basis of my argument. Whatever, twiddle knobs, be certain in your own genius (or potential for it), and watch the flowers bow to your toes as you pass them. The rest of us have to work to improve, and to do so we gather any and all information available, evaluate it against logic and practical experience (I've been working in music in some professional capacity or other since 1993), and then go about internalizing what we find valuable. The context of what you cite: contra silly, arrogant anti-intellectualism. I never once advocated *any* system. I simply wrote that the arguments made for rejecting it outright were not immanent. But it doesn't seem like advocates of straightforward listening know how to do just that..... Present an immanent critique of the system or you may as well just say "I don't like it"
An immanent critique? Have you been reading the thread? Mistakenly based on mixing in a room many times greater than a Mastering Room; Does not account for SPL differences perceived by the ear vis a vis an SPL meter -- IOW, 83 dB SPL is not 83 dB SPL when comparing readings from 75 feet versus 3 feet. From 3 feet, despite the SPL meter reading, it will SOUND to the EAR at least 6dB louder; It can lead to bass-shy Masters because it does not encourage you checking the Master AT ALL LEVELS; All the lights and meters and calibration gymnastics detract from just listening and adjusting the Masters accordingly. Should I go on summarizing the thread?

Also, no one is advocating "magic" or "genius" or in-born innate ability to "hear". As I said, and Masterer and others have said, you have to APPLY yourself. No one walks into Mastering on day one hearing as well as a 20 yr Vet. Is parallel compression the most transparent? What does it sound like in your room? How did the Masters translate? How much EQ do you use? What kind? What frequencies? How do I give that Snare more snap! and not make the mix overly bright or harsh? How do I De-ess a vocal on a Master and not ruin the high end? Do I compress this mix or leave it? How do I deal with an over-comressed mix? What to do about flabby low end when the client asks for more low end punch? Does multi-band work on a whole mix, and if so when, how much, which mix? M/S processing? When? On everything? Nothing? Certain things? Is the "cure" worse than the "disease"? DO you treat a Punk track the same as you treat a smooth jazz track? How much bass is not enough on a Reggae rekkid? and on and on.

You have to do. Learn. Do more. Learn more. Try. Fail. Read about some ideas/tips/techniques. Try them for yourself. Listen. Compare your work against a hero's. Does my Master compare to (insert name of your hero ME)? If not, why not? Listen. Do. Listen some more. There is no : what do I buy and how do I set it? You have to work the knobs and listen to the result and compare.

My "hearing" is better today than it was 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. My "hearing" is better than an intern who is 18 and can hear to 20kHz. Your brain is an analyzer and you have to train it. It takes work. It can't be done in one day, or even a year. There are too many possibilities for problems...and there will always be new surprises and new tools to learn. Over time you learn to hear the problems faster, and you learn the best ways to deal with them.
Old 21st September 2011
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
I feel rather inadequate having only a pencil mark against the volume control where it feels right to me, but it still seems to get the job done. I didn't measure at the time I made the mark, although subsequently I've found it corresponds to about mid 70s - early 80s on a sound level meter, depending on material.
I guess it's time once again:

http://collinsaudio.com/D_SYSTEM.jpg


DC
Old 21st September 2011
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Obvious troll is obvious..... sigh.....
Now that, I was not expecting.


DC
Old 21st September 2011
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Obvious troll is obvious..... sigh.....
A 'troll' hiding behind his real name?

Tom gave some GREAT advice in that post and you call him a troll?

Good grief.
Old 21st September 2011
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
I guess it's time once again:

http://collinsaudio.com/D_SYSTEM.jpg


DC
now that's funny... hehe hehe
Old 21st September 2011
  #81
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minister, I'd click 'like' on your post.

D, I kind of wish it still had the labels.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Huh? Neither will a refusal to engage with the substantive basis of my argument. Whatever, twiddle knobs, be certain in your own genius (or potential for it), and watch the flowers bow to your toes as you pass them. The rest of us have to work to improve, and to do so we gather any and all information available, evaluate it against logic and practical experience (I've been working in music in some professional capacity or other since 1993), and then go about internalizing what we find valuable. The context of what you cite: contra silly, arrogant anti-intellectualism. I never once advocated *any* system. I simply wrote that the arguments made for rejecting it outright were not immanent. But it doesn't seem like advocates of straightforward listening know how to do just that..... Present an immanent critique of the system or you may as well just say "I don't like it"
I don't like it.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer View Post
I don't like it.
What's hilarious about this whole kerfuffle is that neither do I! I just think it's worth engaging with the logic of it, and seeing if anything can be learned from it.....
Old 22nd September 2011
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
What's hilarious about this whole kerfuffle is that neither do I! I just think it's worth engaging with the logic of it, and seeing if anything can be learned from it.....

Kerfuffle.


Now that I like.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
He's not *responding* to what I wrote.

SNIP

Also: didn't ask for advice. Was discussin utility of K-System
Here is what you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Huh? Neither will a refusal to engage with the substantive basis of my argument. Whatever, twiddle knobs, be certain in your own genius (or potential for it), and watch the flowers bow to your toes as you pass them. ...*SNIP* ... I simply wrote that the arguments made for rejecting it outright were not immanent. But it doesn't seem like advocates of straightforward listening know how to do just that..... Present an immanent critique of the system or you may as well just say "I don't like it"
Immanent. Means the same thing as "inherent". Being within the limits of your experience. IOW, NOT transcendent. You claim that an "immanent" critique was not given. You also claim that Masterer (and others) refused to engage in the substance of your view. I provided a critique of the system upon it's own merits, not an ab extra noumenalist critique. (A noumenon is something "known" w/o benefit of the senses....Newman!). I dinnat just say, "I dunna like eet.". I spelled out why, immanently, it is flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
Glad to hear your hearing is fine. No offense meant, but you missed the whole point of my critique. ...*SNIP... The whole anti-intellectualism thing is strange, in my opinion. It's like saying I just play what I feel, or I just master what I feel..... If that works for you, fine. But it doesn't mean the K-system or any other system is an obstacle. And the OP was *explanatory*. This forum is so weird! Lol.....
Above you said I didn't reply to what you wrote but rather you were discussin' the utility of the K-System. My post also addresses JUST that in addition to your notion you have of our anti-intellectual "I just Master what I feel" line. In case I need to draw a diagram : edja-ma-catin' yer ears is a life-long dealio that takes assiduous application of your abilities and experience. "Hearing" is not a priori, it's most deff a posteriori. It ain't magical thinking where one day, ta-daaa I can hear now! The K-System is not as K-Useful as a-settin' a grease pencil mark on some useful monitor levels, then a-settin' that aside, stop a-lookin' at tha meeeterrrs 'n-a gittin' down to tha bidness of lis-nin', twistin' knobs and more lisnin'. Or, as CSNY said, "Teach your ear-holes well."

And to call me anti-intellectual is kinda funny, and, well, hurts me deep inside, where I am soft and sensitive.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
Here is what you wrote:



Immanent. Means the same thing as "inherent". Being within the limits of your experience. IOW, NOT transcendent. You claim that an "immanent" critique was not given. You also claim that Masterer (and others) refused to engage in the substance of your view. I provided a critique of the system upon it's own merits, not an ab extra noumenalist critique. (A noumenon is something "known" w/o benefit of the senses....Newman!). I dinnat just say, "I dunna like eet.". I spelled out why, immanently, it is flawed.



Above you said I didn't reply to what you wrote but rather you were discussin' the utility of the K-System. My post also addresses JUST that in addition to your notion you have of our anti-intellectual "I just Master what I feel" line. In case I need to draw a diagram : edja-ma-catin' yer ears is a life-long dealio that takes assiduous application of your abilities and experience. "Hearing" is not a priori, it's most deff a posteriori. It ain't magical thinking where one day, ta-daaa I can hear now! The K-System is not as K-Useful as a-settin' a grease pencil mark on some useful monitor levels, then a-settin' that aside, stop a-lookin' at tha meeeterrrs 'n-a gittin' down to tha bidness of lis-nin', twistin' knobs and more lisnin'. Or, as CSNY said, "Teach your ear-holes well."

And to call me anti-intellectual is kinda funny, and, well, hurts me deep inside, where I am soft and sensitive.
OK man. "Immanent critique" actually means to critique based on the logic of the thing itself. Misunderstanding then. Amazingly, I must say I totally agree with everything you're writing, *just not in the context of whether or not the K-system has anything to offer which could be useful for learning*. I prefer structure, so I can gauge my progress. I would never use it. It srikes me as cockamamie. But my point is that it *may* not be cockamamie. I wouldn't know until I've tried it, and then
Old 22nd September 2011
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchboxHo View Post
OK man. "Immanent critique" actually means to critique based on the logic of the thing itself.
In other words, as I said, not ab extra. I used its terms to crtique it.

Try it, and see what you think of it. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the utility once you set up your system (correctly) to 83 SPL and put up a Mastered Music Track.
Old 22nd September 2011
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
In other words, as I said, not ab extra. I used its terms to crtique it.

Try it, and see what you think of it. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the utility once you set up your system (correctly) to 83 SPL and put up a Mastered Music Track.
I will give it a shot. Peace!
Old 22nd September 2011
  #89
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I hadn't come across the word 'immanent' before, so thanks for adding to my vocabulary - I'm glad something good's come out of this thread.

Nothing, however, compares to definitions in the Uxbridge English Dictionary where the first entry under A is 'Abandon: pub entertainment'.

Uxbridge English Dictionary - Online Edition
Old 22nd September 2011
  #90
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No K system here.
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