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Masterers, what is your opinion/use of linear phase EQ? Equalisers (HW)
Old 12th September 2011
  #31
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Originally Posted by Stereophonic View Post
yes, it does...and?? It also says i'm running weiss eq1-mkii. I haven't used the vintage warmer in years. Most my coloring is done with the mini massive, great river maq-2nv, algorithmix blue, tube-tech smc2b, eq1…Red for surgery. Lots of flavors, lots of options. I broke up the massive passive a couple years ago. I guess i need to update my site.
Was warning you of a typo mate!
Old 14th September 2011
  #32
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I'm not a mastering engineer, but I have used the Algorithmix Red extensively, and nothing else I have used ITB sounds as sweet. An example that sticks in my mind is when I used it to gently boost the highs in a ribbon mic recording. All the character of the ribbon mic sound remained, but with added air. Nothing more, nothing less. It was a revelation and something I hadn't heard executed so convincingly with any other EQ prior to or since.

Also, if you need to roll of or cut some bass on a double bass recording, I haven't found anything that does the job better that the Red.

The Orange is all of the above, but I feel it's the better when you want to use a higher Q. Also, somehow it's better on drums.
Old 14th September 2011
  #33
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I seldom use it in a mastering session workflow, and never for low freq. stuff like high pass filters. It makes sense for low pass filters and other frequency-based DSP processing, but in a creative mastering application it is less often called for. Having all the linear phase plug-ins included in mastering bundles is more about marketing. There are some good ones, and if it sounds good for a particular project, then have at it; just don't assume it's better for everything. There's no free lunch, and you trade one side-effect for another. Pre-echo is a real issue.
Old 14th September 2011
  #34
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I like the linear phase waves hipass filter.
it sounds transparent to me.

I also like to use the LPMB compressor by waves as well. Howver, I only use the one upper mid band most of the time.
Old 15th September 2011
  #35
restpause
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I was reading about LPEQ's and apparently there are different types of it. I'm thinking that probably some designs cause more pre-echo than others.
Old 15th September 2011
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post

Where did the idea come from that LP is "mastering grade," anyway?


DC
Says so on page 110 in this book I read. Good thread though as I think a lot of folks read this same book at one time or another. Fortunately for me, my ears disagreed like many here.
Old 5th April 2012
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermat View Post
anyone tried fab filter proQ in lp mode? a friend of mine uses it all the time in this mode (mostly over 2khz though), he does the actual settings in minimum phase mode and switches to the lp mode (with highest latency setting) when he´s rendering...he says it sounds more neutral and transparent in this mode...I´m thinking of getting the fab filter pro Q because when I saw it, I really liked the versatility and usabilty (awsome gui)....what are the opinions about it´s sound and especially how it sound in lp mode (with highest latency)?
Even in highest latency mode I can hear the bass distort (was doing low-cut) in some songs... ever since I heard bass distort in LP mode I only use mostly low latency now.
Old 5th April 2012
  #38
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What the hell is "minimal" phase Eqing as opposed to Linear Phase Eqing?
Old 5th April 2012
  #39
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Originally Posted by Camera View Post
What the hell is "minimal" phase Eqing as opposed to Linear Phase Eqing?
Everything else!


Interestingly my new Cambridge Dacmagic Plus DAC has different filter options..

Linear seemed most natural at first, but then I realised there was an added sparkle/distortion/excitation really high up that I wasn't hearing before, I thought it was my room, searched high and low for a flutter, and then read the manual and stuck the DAC in minimum phase... hey presto it went!
Old 5th April 2012
  #40
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I find use for it in M/S. Minimum phase often sounds very unnatural in M/S and pulls the sound stage apart in a way I don't like... But then again it depends...
Old 6th April 2012
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelistics View Post
I find use for it in M/S. Minimum phase often sounds very unnatural in M/S and pulls the sound stage apart in a way I don't like... But then again it depends...
Have you read this?
MS processing: LP or MP eq?
Old 6th April 2012
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sempoo View Post
Have you read this?
MS processing: LP or MP eq?
No, sorry.
Old 29th May 2012
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonemaker View Post
Mastering engineers, what is your opinion of linear phase EQ?
Also, what uses do you have for linear phase EQ?
Do you prefer it over other EQ?

Please explain.
Thanks in advance.
i use linear phase eq's for notching above 1kHz, bringing overloud triangle's or tambourine's back into the mix or cutting out resonances of edgy guitarsounds.
sometimes i use them also for equalizing parallel signals.
Old 30th May 2012
  #44
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermat View Post
we did some blind testing today at my friends studio with the fab filter pro Q in lp mode (maximum latency setting) and in minimum phase mode (zero latency)...the absolute clear result was: it sounded way better in lp mode. I don´t know other lp EQs but for the fab filter pro Q at least, the lp mode is so much better, in most EQ situations...way more transparent...no colour at all...best software EQ I ever heard!!
This has been my experience exactly. I've caught the low latency LP distorting but the medium & max latency ones just sounded SO much better for HPF. Night and day difference. Pro-Q is my fav vst EQ though and does LP better than some others.
Old 30th May 2012
  #45
Shy
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I've tried everything, including Algorithmix PEQ Red and PEQ Orange. PEQ Blue is better, as simple as that, and is at least as good as the best analog equalizers I've used.

Good linear phase implementations have good uses, like sample rate conversion and cases when you have to have a "perfectly" reversible result, but so far the proven, "minimum-phase" implementations cotinue to be much more useful in a musical context.
Old 30th May 2012
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shy View Post
Good linear phase implementations have good uses, like sample rate conversion and cases when you have to have a "perfectly" reversible result, but so far the proven, "minimum-phase" implementations cotinue to be much more useful in a musical context.
While it's somewhat of a theory thing, linear phase is not "perfectly" reversible the way minimum phase is. That is to say that if you boost 1dB at 10k then cut that same dB, in LP you don't really get back to zero.

Although according to Alexey, it can be pretty close with a good implementation, in practicality I don't think the math is reversible like it is in MP.

Also 99% of sonic issues are MP anyway so it makes sense both sonically and technically to address them that way.

"I'll take: 'Classic records made with linear phase EQ's' for a hundred, Alex"


DC
Old 30th May 2012
  #47
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"Reversibility" is not completely related to LP or MP, but it's true that most MP EQ designs are reversible, while most LP EQs are slightly non-reversible. For example, standard "cookbook" biquad MP EQs are perfectly reversible, but many "unwarped" or "analog-matched" MP EQs are not completely reversible.
Reversibility is mostly related to the ability of a particular EQ to create "mirrored" frequency responses for boosts and cuts. Sometimes this mirroring is exact, sometimes it is not. But even in the latter case the "reverted" result is usually quite close to the original.
Old 30th May 2012
  #48
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermat View Post
anyone tried fab filter proQ in lp mode? a friend of mine uses it all the time in this mode (mostly over 2khz though), he does the actual settings in minimum phase mode and switches to the lp mode (with highest latency setting) when he´s rendering...he says it sounds more neutral and transparent in this mode...I´m thinking of getting the fab filter pro Q because when I saw it, I really liked the versatility and usabilty (awsome gui)....what are the opinions about it´s sound and especially how it sound in lp mode (with highest latency)?
I've found for linear phase low cuts or shelves, having it in High Latency mode actually sounds better than Maximum Latency. No idea why, but it sounded the most transparent out of all the LP settings.
Old 30th May 2012
  #49
Shy
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dcollins: I wrote "perfectly" in " because of course it's not perfect, but in a musical/human perceivable context, it pretty much is, with a proper implementation. Anyway, I'm uninterested by that.
Old 1st June 2012
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
No, never.

Where did the idea come from that LP is "mastering grade," anyway?


DC
or multi-band compression, or brickwall 'maximizing'
Old 1st June 2012
  #51
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Algorithmix RED sounds unbeaten in the mid & high range. very sweet like an very analog HQ Equalizer. Low/Highcuts are soft. Bass is ok too.
ORANGE is more surgical, the lowcut cuts out everything, also DC. The RED let it thru.
Can be important for vinyl cutting masters.
But pre ringing can be heard in the bass range.

Sometimes i have to slightly remaster masters from other studios, therefore LPEQs are
great to just change levels but not the sound.
have to check the blue again...

ak23
Old 9th July 2012
  #52
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audiomastermind's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonemaker View Post
Mastering engineers, what is your opinion of linear phase EQ?
Also, what uses do you have for linear phase EQ?
Do you prefer it over other EQ?

Please explain.
Thanks in advance.
1) Fantastic
2) All
3) Yes and No, I like to combine

Cheers
Philip
Old 9th July 2012
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shy View Post
I've tried everything, including Algorithmix PEQ Red and PEQ Orange. PEQ Blue is better, as simple as that, and is at least as good as the best analog equalizers I've used.

Good linear phase implementations have good uses, like sample rate conversion and cases when you have to have a "perfectly" reversible result, but so far the proven, "minimum-phase" implementations cotinue to be much more useful in a musical context.

I don't like the Blue

but the Orange and the Red are a dream to work with

Cheers
Philip
Information about Little Major Audio Mastering
Old 9th July 2012
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
While it's somewhat of a theory thing, linear phase is not "perfectly" reversible the way minimum phase is. That is to say that if you boost 1dB at 10k then cut that same dB, in LP you don't really get back to zero.

Although according to Alexey, it can be pretty close with a good implementation, in practicality I don't think the math is reversible like it is in MP.
I think you confused something.

Only linear phase filters are perfectly reversible, they can be reversed without any losses. Even the "ringing" cancels out.

Minimum phase filters are only reversible in (very) special cases. In most cases, they are not. The simple fact that minimum phase filters distort the phase makes them irreversible. You can approximately compensate the magnitude response, but not the phase shift (which would require a non-causal time inverted version of the first filter).
Old 9th July 2012
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
I think you confused something.

Only linear phase filters are perfectly reversible, they can be reversed without any losses. Even the "ringing" cancels out.

Minimum phase filters are only reversible in (very) special cases. In most cases, they are not. The simple fact that minimum phase filters distort the phase makes them irreversible. You can approximately compensate the magnitude response, but not the phase shift (which would require a non-causal time inverted version of the first filter).
You can easily try it yourself. A square wave is a good test signal. With an minimum-phase EQ you can boost the signal and then if you cut by the same amount and Q/BW the exact square wave you started with is restored.

Yes the phase and amplitude are affected, but the 'distortion' is also completely reversed.

This is a basic tenet of analog (or IIR filter) signal processing.


DC
Old 10th July 2012
  #56
@dccollins: Oh thanks, you're right. I was thinking about crossovers. Still, I don't see any good reason why Linear Phase filters should not reverse properly.
Old 10th July 2012
  #57
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The reason is that the inverse of an FIR filter is an IIR filter. Most EQs do not offer you a choice of FIR/IIR, they stick to one type. You can reasonably well approximate the inverse of an FIR with another, generally longer, FIR, but the inversion will not be precise.
Old 17th July 2012
  #58
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I think the last time I used a LP EQ was simply to help with the ringing on a vocal that was recorded on a cheap converter. It seem to do the trick. I have to admit I ran into it totally by accident. But since then I haven't run into it again, or seen the need for it. My Avalon seems to get the job done for most things I need.
Old 17th July 2012
  #59
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I´m having good results using the LP Marvel eq (Voxengo) specially in M/S mode.

Ciro
Old 20th July 2012
  #60
I've always found it too cold and sterile, dare I say "boring" sounding?

I guess I like vibe gear.
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