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Is Full Range necessary for mastering? Studio Monitors
Old 8th January 2011
  #31
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i don't think i'm buying the 'generating subharmonics' thing, BUT i have had the experience where i cut a master at a reasonable level, and the band, predictably, says "sounds great, can you just make it louder?"

and in the process of louderizing it, i sometimes find that i do need to address the sub stuff in particular. what sounds good at -12 sounds tubby at -9. this is probably just a result of cramming too much stuff into too small a box though.
Old 8th January 2011
  #32
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William Bowden's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by scraggs View Post
i don't think i'm buying the 'generating subharmonics' thing, BUT i have had the experience where i cut a master at a reasonable level, and the band, predictably, says "sounds great, can you just make it louder?"

and in the process of louderizing it, i sometimes find that i do need to address the sub stuff in particular. what sounds good at -12 sounds tubby at -9. this is probably just a result of cramming too much stuff into too small a box though.
Could also be that in order to successfully make it louder you needed to lose some of the energy in the LF as it uses up a lot of room.

The King
Old 8th January 2011
  #33
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Adam Dempsey's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
OK, after a good night's sleep I'm ready to blow 'compression and limiting generates subharmonics' out of the water.

1. Surely this is a simple confusion of cause and effect: 'A and B regularly occur together, therefore A is the cause of B' or 'I observe a buildup of LF content in material which has been limited/compressed, therefore compression/limiting causes the buildup'.

2. The simplest explanation is often the best, Occam's Razor. Which is therefore more likely: i) that there is a mysterious side-effect of compressors and limiters whereby they actively generate subharmonics in operation, causing a buildup of LF content, or ii) that if you don't have a full-range monitoring you probably won't hear what's going on in the sub region and therefore can't correct it?
New: Occam's razor – with six blades and a reality-lubricating strip!

But yes... either intermod distortion artefacts, or possibly via simple over-compression with a LF side chain filter, in which case mids-HF are obviously compressed more, resulting in comparatively more dynamic bass (often the exact opposite of what's needed), which may risk increasing/unmasking any sub issues already present, rather than generating them, per se. Thinking out loud...
Old 9th January 2011
  #34
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cdog's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
You can't fix what you can't hear
you can fix gross problems with the low end via a scope
Old 9th January 2011
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Bowden View Post
Could also be that in order to successfully make it louder you needed to lose some of the energy in the LF as it uses up a lot of room.

The King
That might just it ;-)
Master guys you should know that!!
Old 9th January 2011
  #36
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My monitoring system goes flat to below 20 Hz (Genelec 7071A + PMC IB2S) and I have several times heard annoying low frequency content on disks and video which should not have it and mastering people have not heard it. Things like undeground explosions on a classical guitar, distant door slams etc.. So I would defenetly say you have to listen the final product at least once with a full range system. Or use a frequency analyzer (does not really work too well as you have to raelly keep an eye on the darn thing 100% of the time), or just filter out the bottom end to be safe. If you are not missing it on your system, nobody else is either...
Old 9th January 2011
  #37
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William Bowden's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
My monitoring system goes flat to below 20 Hz (Genelec 7071A + PMC IB2S) and I have several times heard annoying low frequency content on disks and video which should not have it and mastering people have not heard it. Things like undeground explosions on a classical guitar, distant door slams etc.. So I would defenetly say you have to listen the final product at least once with a full range system. Or use a frequency analyzer (does not really work too well as you have to raelly keep an eye on the darn thing 100% of the time), or just filter out the bottom end to be safe. If you are not missing it on your system, nobody else is either...
I'm often amazed by the things engineers leave down there, plosives etc, however I tend to take them out individually rather than roll off all the subs (unless needed) as that's annoying in it's own right most of the time.

The King
Old 9th January 2011
  #38
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lowland's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Bowden View Post
I'm often amazed by the things engineers leave down there, plosives etc, however I tend to take them out individually rather than roll off all the subs (unless needed) as that's annoying in it's own right most of the time.

The King
I once worked on material recorded in a company's new and expensive studio, and although it was soon obvious listening here that there was traffic rumble and the like on the recordings, they said the problem didn't exist. When provided with specific clips they couldn't hear what I was talking about, draw your own conclusions! Despite diplomatic effort on my part they stopped using me soon after: I bear them no ill will, I guess some you just can't win.
Old 9th January 2011
  #39
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdog View Post
you can fix gross problems with the low end via a scope
Sure, because a scope knows if it's a low note on an organ or a bus driving by...
Old 9th January 2011
  #40
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lowland's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
Sure, because a scope knows if it's a low note on an organ or a bus driving by...
Old 10th January 2011
  #41
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What do subharmonic compression artifacts have to do with anything? You need to hear down there because a million other things could have been making sound there. If the producer had the certifiably insane notion that a person might buy the album and play it on a decent system, there might even be stuff down there that was intentional. Crazy, I know.
Old 13th January 2011
  #42
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agreed. sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my time with intricate sounds that won't translate through ipod headphones.
Old 17th January 2011
  #43
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Is it wrong that I completely remove everything below 30 hz regardless?
Old 17th January 2011
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonorchid View Post
Is it wrong that I completely remove everything below 30 hz regardless?
If you know you have not put anything there, then it is ok. Might be usefull even.
Old 17th January 2011
  #45
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonorchid View Post
Is it wrong that I completely remove everything below 30 hz regardless?
A 30Hz HPF on everything is probably not the best approach. Your filter may say 30Hz but it will be affecting the sound way above that frequency. Back in the early Sonic Solutions days, the system defaulted to an 18Hz HFP. Lots of people complained about the sound of those early systems until someone dug deep enough to find that default setting. This was in the days of full range monitoring systems in studios. Turns out that's still a pretty handy thing to have if you need to hear everything.


GR
Old 17th January 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonorchid View Post
Is it wrong that I completely remove everything below 30 hz regardless?
if you cut at 30 Hz with 48 dB / Oktave I don't see why higher frequencies should be affected.
Old 17th January 2011
  #47
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
if you cut at 30 Hz with 48 dB / Oktave I don't see why higher frequencies should be affected.
Ripple in the filter will affect frequencies much higher than the cutoff frequency. Whether it's audible and objectionable is another thing that full range monitors will help you determine.


GR
Old 17th January 2011
  #48
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There's also the phase implications to consider, especially with such a steep filter.
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