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snare punch loss when mastering Dynamics Plugins
Old 17th May 2011
  #61
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Table Of Tone's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrappa View Post
Its ok talking about effecting the drum track or bus but how do you punch things up without punching up other instruments.

Lets say you have a mix thats perfectly balanced bar the snare - you can hear it but it seems as tho whoever mixed it tried using compression to add punch but actually ended up sucking the life out of the transient. You do not have access to the snare or drum track and the user does not under any circumstance want you to try to phase invert the snare (to try to get rid) and back it up with another snare/or back it up with another snare. What do you do?

No send it back and ask artist to.........
No ask for stems............

so whats next choice - and can you help me with using a comp or limiter to give dynamic value back to the snare?
There's only so much you can do with a snare light mix, but stuff can be done.

What I am saying is that limiting is probably the last thing you'd wanna be doing to it!

A lookahead limiter will look at the transients that are coming and scale them down.
This will leave a snare light mix sounding really one dimensional.

The right kind of comp with a slow attack and the right release timing can actually make the snare pop out of the mix a little more because it reacts after the snare hit has happened, gently grabbing the audio that follows it.
Old 17th May 2011
  #62
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
There's only so much you can do with a snare light mix, but stuff can be done.

What I am saying is that limiting is probably the last thing you'd wanna be doing to it!

A lookahead limiter will look at the transients that are coming and scale them down.
This will leave a snare light mix sounding really one dimensional.

The right kind of comp with a slow attack and the right release timing can actually make the snare pop out of the mix a little more because it reacts after the snare hit has happened, gently grabbing the audio that follows it.
But if the snare is hidden in the mix then wont the loudest thing be the transient of the kick? therefore the compressor will back the signal off at every kick. When you say slow are you talking like 300ms? I guess if you side chain the compressor then you could grab the snare in a full mix - by either selecting frequency - being careful of the vox or by replicating a snare and sidechaining the comp to that track????
Old 18th May 2011
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrappa View Post
But if the snare is hidden in the mix then wont the loudest thing be the transient of the kick? therefore the compressor will back the signal off at every kick. When you say slow are you talking like 300ms? I guess if you side chain the compressor then you could grab the snare in a full mix - by either selecting frequency - being careful of the vox or by replicating a snare and sidechaining the comp to that track????
Again, that's really down to attack/release times and the type of comp used?
Old 18th May 2011
  #64
Gear Head
 

Any ideas?

never use a cheap (toneless) snare drum

don't lift a stereo wall of british marshall guitars recorded with neve pres over a student-line kima drumset.

you're probably 100k shy in electronics or around 10k shy if you're just recording the individual drum with no other instruments.

Last edited by The Amplighter; 18th May 2011 at 05:25 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 19th May 2011
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lu432 View Post
If your problem is a snare on a master, mess with a multiband compressor. You'll probably get better results with greater control. Your limiter can then just act as protection from overs.
I agree with this, I know people are afraid of multiband comps but if you cant get it loud without losing the punch, try a multiband, maybe just use two or three bands, but processing the snare area of the spectrum differently from the rest of the song should offer much more flexibility. You could also dip the area of the snare with an eq before single band compression so that it is not compressed as much, then eq again after compression to compensate.
Old 19th May 2011
  #66
Use a good ME.

I was having trouble with this for years. A couple of cats that could get your master hot without squashing the attack on the drums that we were using, took like 6 weeks, and cost a fortune.

Some other guys would get other things spot on, eq etc., but the track would be FLAT. I mean, zero punch left...no freaking transients left, no groove.

I don't know if it is out of fear of their master being too "quiet" or what, but it kept getting squashed to holy hell and back.

I recently sent out to Dave Collins Mastering, and he did a great job.

No squashed snare drum, nice punch still left in it.

This was with material that was recorded mostly outside of my place, and I was at a disadvantage in mixdown. He was still able to get good results.
Dude knows his stuff, is very approachable with any revisions, and has a great ear.

If trying to do this on your own, I can only think it has to do with your attack and release times. Get it in time with the music, or suffer the consequences I guess.

On a side note...
When is this loudness crap that encourages people to use such limiting that would kill a snare to begin with, going to end?

I hate this sh*t....so sick of it. Sounds sh*tty.

I don't give a flying rat's ass how loud your music is, if it sounds like a rat's ass.

My $0.02, good luck man,
John
Old 19th May 2011
  #67
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because a lot of folks are trying for -8 RMS with three instances of plugs

that kind of level...is insane...but also takes some careful moves...and lots of them to keep the thing listenable...IMO
Old 19th May 2011
  #68
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AcoosticZoo's Avatar
u get punch with headroom.

U can't change the laws of physics

A soft mix will have most transients
A loud mix will have least transients

Or clip it if u can get away with it

Regards
Josef horhay
Mixing engineer
Www.acoosticzoo.com
Old 19th May 2011
  #69
Gear Addict
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcoosticZoo View Post
u get punch with headroom.

U can't change the laws of physics

A soft mix will have most transients
A loud mix will have least transients

Or clip it if u can get away with it

Regards
Josef horhay
Mixing engineer
Www.acoosticzoo.com
This! Not too sure about the previous posts which recommend a multi-band solely to 'keep' snare punch, or eq out the 'snare' frequency (whatever that is!) then compress...most of the time this is good advice on how to get rid of snare punch. If you really need more apparent loudness and the snare is eating up too much headroom, after compression, clipping a decent da convertor, in moderation can actually be a useful way to control peaks and preserve punch and transients more than limiting alone, or over limiting might...at the expense of distortion of course. How much you clip will affect how audible the distortion is.

Snare punch is usually felt somewhere in the low mids frequency. Quite often instruments and vocals can also have a lot of content around here, so it's possible whilst trying to deal with this whoever mastered it also got rid of too much snare.

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if it's already been covered.
Old 19th May 2011
  #70
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mdoelger's Avatar
As far as mixing is concerned, often you can lower the "peak" the snare causes in the end by clever eqing.

Try to find the frequencies for punch and clarity of the snare, then make a little room (1db goes a long way here) by lowering this range in offending other instruments with narrow equing.

You'll notice the the snare will appear more punchy than before. Now lower the snare a bit till it sits just right again.
Old 19th May 2011
  #71
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inlinenl's Avatar
 

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post the mix .....

it just could be the snare a bit louder in the mix ????
Old 24th May 2011
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mml View Post
Try hard clipping then turn it down a half db before burning a cd. It's "wrong" but when done sparingly it's much more transparent on the snare. Just use your ears to make sure you don't get audible distortion.
How exactly are you implementing the hard clip? ITB? With hardware? Just curious. Thanks
Old 27th May 2011
  #73
look in the right places

You can make this work by working on the music:

#1: The snare drum should have its own space to sit in, musically, which the band play around.

#2: Often the guitarist & bassist will *add* to this by playing a percussive note, or just leaving space for the snare drum. This needs to be tight for it to work, furry playing will create mush.

#3: the snare is one of the more expressive drums, if you want it to punch, it requires punching.
Old 1st June 2011
  #74
Gear Nut
 

I suggest checking the whole mix file for peaks -- visually if you have to. (Some progams have a 'find peaks' feature.) You may be surprised to find there are only one or two peaks in the transients that are keeping the rest of the track from being louder.

My rule of thumb for compressing and limiting is: if you can hear the effect, you've overdone it. That's a general rule ofc, and rules get broken; in the late 60s, some mixes made lovely use of super-compressed snare (e.g. King Crimson) to great effect in the overall soundscape.

Some of the replies have mentioned RMS between -8 and -12. Great if you can get there without squashing the song. Use your discretion, and your ears.
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