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snare punch loss when mastering Dynamics Plugins
Old 4th January 2011
  #31
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echoRausch's Avatar
 

But the thing is: when your master is loud enough, the crap limiters of a pa won't be hit at all because the input of the limiter will be reduced by the dj or foh.

So it will probably sound better than something very dynamically which hits the "crap limiters" often indeed.
Old 4th January 2011
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echoRausch View Post
But the thing is: when your master is loud enough, the crap limiters of a pa won't be hit at all because the input of the limiter will be reduced by the dj
NEVER count on this... Most DJs drive the mixers so that all the LEDs on the meter light up, then add some EQ on top of that. It doesn't help that most DJ mixers are designed to go way over +4dBu, they don't clip themselves but are almost guaranteed to clip the PA if they are kept in the red. Sometimes they clip the input stage of the amplifier, things can get distorted even before they hit the limiter.

Higher crest factor = more headroom, simple as that. As far as i know, if music is enjoyable, people are supposed to turn the volume up, not down...
Old 4th January 2011
  #33
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Even the "bad" DJ's try to keep the volume at nearly the same level. If your master is loud, they WILL reduce the volume. Or their DJ-software will do it but it WILL be done.

How do crappy pa-limiters work? Are they rms-limiters? NO way. They are all simple peak limiters. And if your master is very loud you will have a much higher chance it will not hit them at all as if your master is very dynamically.
Old 4th January 2011
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echoRausch View Post
How do crappy pa-limiters work? Are they rms-limiters? NO way. They are all simple peak limiters. And if your master is very loud you will have a much higher chance it will not hit them at all as if your master is very dynamically.
Who cares if a club might have a crappy limiter that might get abused by an inexperienced DJ? What point are you trying to make?

I hope you're not suggesting that people should make production decisions based on things that might not even happen once the production is complete and somebody buys the song and tries to play it.

Hey, some kid might have books on his shelf in front of his speakers in his bedroom. Better crank the highs on the album to compensate.
Old 4th January 2011
  #35
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I'm suggesting nobody anything. I say: do whatever you want. Some like it soft, some like loud.

And I say: I like it loud and I made experiences why I like it. Thats all. And sometimes I talk about that experiences. And the above is one of it.

It's all a thing of your viewpoint. We all agree that some headroom is always a good thing. It sounds crazy but sometimes loud masters give you more headroom on the playback system than softer ones. Because the peaks of the louder one are way lower - at the same perceived loudness. And as all protection systems are simply peak driven, lower peaks cause less problems because of way more headroom.
Old 4th January 2011
  #36
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echoRausch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat View Post
Who cares if a club might have a crappy limiter that might get abused by an inexperienced DJ? What point are you trying to make?
I'm sure your customer will care about that. When he's giving your master-cd to a dj in a club to hear like it sounds in da club he will really care. And when your master sounds ****ty in front of all the people and the tracks played before and after sound ok, he will not care about dynamics or loudness war nor something else. You can be sure you will never see him again.
Old 4th January 2011
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echoRausch View Post
I'm sure your customer will care about that. When he's giving your master-cd to a dj in a club to hear like it sounds in da club he will really care. And when your master sounds ****ty in front of all the people and the tracks played before and after sound ok, he will not care about dynamics or loudness war nor something else. You can be sure you will never see him again.
Let's do what I did in the other thread. All of this assumes:

*The music makes it to store shelves.
*The music sells.
*The music creates a buzz.
*A DJ picks up on the buzz and adds the music to his set list.
*That same DJ gets a gig.
*The club hiring the DJ has a bad sound system.
*That bad sound system is protected by a limiter.
*The limiter is not set very well.
*The DJ pushes your song too hard into that limiter.
*There is a person in the crowd who is capable of noticing the audio problem.
*That same person is bothered enough by the audio problem to stop the fun he is having.
*The reaction of that person is enough to be noticed by the owners and is not offset by positive reactions of other people.
*And if all of the above happens, the man in charge finally has to blame the problem on the song itself instead of the DJ or the equipment.
*And if all of THAT happens, the DJ, club, or club owner have to be "big" enough actually make an impact in hurting the album.



That is a lot of "if's" to justify ruining a production with loudness.
Old 4th January 2011
  #38
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You're such a wise man...
Old 5th January 2011
  #39
I definitely like the idea of trying to do some masters without a limiter. While I don't think I'll ever finish a project without some limiting to an extent, I feel like taking the pressure off the limiter will yield some better results. The mixes I've been dealing with have a great deal of compression already and I've noticed that the snare seems to fall apart because of extreme compression.

This may simply be an instance where less is more.
Old 5th January 2011
  #40
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monsieur x's Avatar
snare punch loss when mastering

OP: Post audio?

Hey guys, I am painting this painting. I want the blue to really stick out but I am using bluish-purple on the whole canvas. I know there's not much contrast but there's some yellow in there too. Can you really help me without seeing my masterpiece?

Maybe I'm wrong. . . ?
Old 5th January 2011
  #41
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monsieur x's Avatar
snare punch loss when mastering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat
Let's do what I did in the other thread. All of this assumes:

*The music makes it to store shelves.
*The music sells.
*The music creates a buzz.
*A DJ picks up on the buzz and adds the music to his set list.
*That same DJ gets a gig.
*The club hiring the DJ has a bad sound system.
*That bad sound system is protected by a limiter.
*The limiter is not set very well.
*The DJ pushes your song too hard into that limiter.
*There is a person in the crowd who is capable of noticing the audio problem.
*That same person is bothered enough by the audio problem to stop the fun he is having.
*The reaction of that person is enough to be noticed by the owners and is not offset by positive reactions of other people.
*And if all of the above happens, the man in charge finally has to blame the problem on the song itself instead of the DJ or the equipment.
*And if all of THAT happens, the DJ, club, or club owner have to be "big" enough actually make an impact in hurting the album.



That is a lot of "if's" to justify ruining a production with loudness.
This made me laugh, haha.

Little kids will pick the louder track. That's easy. But for a mature intellectual, it's more about what serves the song best. And that's what will help give the music it's enduring value.

P.S. Loud is awesome sometimes. :D
Old 5th January 2011
  #42
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echoRausch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monsieur x View Post
But for a mature intellectual,...
Quote:
Originally Posted by monsieur x View Post
This made me laugh, haha.
ditto
Old 5th January 2011
  #43
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greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post

Personally i refuse to do anything over -12 RMS.
That's nice to read, but in reality setting a limit on what you refuse based on a dbRMS reading won't work. To get a general idea of your "standards" yes. For example I often explain that commercial mixes arrive already pretty "hot" at around -14dbRMS to -11dbRMS and the final master is in the -11dbRMS to -8dbRMS range, but these are all just general guidelines with many exceptions.

If you need examples feel free to choose audio content that has a full wall of sound all the way through the track.

Then compare that with audio content that has for example quite verses and loud choruses.

You will discover once again, you need a good room, and your ears will tell you when to make level adjustments. Having a special dbRMS number in your mind will only be a distraction.
Old 6th January 2011
  #44
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Verified Member
If your problem is a snare on a master, mess with a multiband compressor. You'll probably get better results with greater control. Your limiter can then just act as protection from overs.
Old 6th January 2011
  #45
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If you're mixing into FX-G (which I don't do) you could retain the apparent punch of the snare. But, you will need to be careful with low end distortion and adjust your filters/levels of your low end instruments accordingly. This may not work for all types of productions - but when it works, it's simply stunning. However, there's other ways to shape and process the snare that will retain it's apparent punch under serious limiting. In my experience, punch in the snare is more a matter of finding the right sample, or recording the correct snare that's tuned to taste as the solid foundation from which you start processing it.

Also, to a degree, mastering techniques (that are privy to some in the know) can alleviate some of the downsides of heavy limiting and still retain the apparent punch of the snare, but the most impact and influence comes from the recording/production/mixing stage imho.

Not all sounds were created equal! It takes more time to find create/recording the perfect sound that will punch through with taste - nevertheless, it's the most effective way to get that punch that you're looking for imho.

Regards

Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com
Old 6th January 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
Having a special dbRMS number in your mind will only be a distraction.
It isn't "special", but people like numbers y'know.

I can hear very well if a track has loud and quiet passages or if it's just slammed from end to end. The number i use as reference is what Sound Forge shows (with "equal loudness contour" weighting off), after the file is rendered. The average for the whole track. I can tell the RMS level just by looking at the waveform, and i pleasantly surprise myself in 80% of cases, as my eyes match the meter within +/-1dB.

When i work i use my ears exclusively. The only meters i watch are the attenuation meters of the compressor and limiter.
Old 6th January 2011
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcoosticZoo View Post
Also, to a degree, mastering techniques (that are privy to some in the know) can alleviate some of the downsides of heavy limiting and still retain the apparent punch of the snare
People get apparent enjoyment from listening to apparent punch. Sample replacement and grid alignment can increase your apparent punch since they add apparent good recording technique and an apparently decent drummer. Throw in clever manipulation of EQ and density to create apparent dynamics to go along with the apparent punch and you'll apparently have legions of apparent fans in no time!
Old 6th January 2011
  #48
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcoosticZoo View Post
...In hindsight, the mix engineer will have a better chance of delivering a punchy snare that will handle severe limiting...
It also isn't like mastering is the only place that your mix is likely to be severely compressed and limited.
Old 8th January 2011
  #49
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the volume knob

what I do now is print the good old "this should be played at high volume "
on the records. so it means "choose you own rms level and don't bug me"

by the way, I 'ts fun to see that most of people who have
a hifi or an autoradio etc. they rarely go over 3/10 on the volume control.
they even forgot it does goes that far
Old 14th January 2011
  #50
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doug hazelrigg's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mml View Post
Try hard clipping then turn it down a half db before burning a cd. It's "wrong" but when done sparingly it's much more transparent on the snare. Just use your ears to make sure you don't get audible distortion.
Ah -- a man after my own heart. I saw the light some time ago (yes, pun intended ). After all, you can't hear it. People occasionally ask me why my mixes have so much more oomph than theirs
Old 12th May 2011
  #51
Gear Nut
 

It's horrible on hear there is never a definative answer. Don't tell me - Thats music for ya.

I am no M/E but i have dabbled in a bit of it. I had a track where the snare was being reduced by 6dB by the L3 multi limiter.
Although i couldn't really hear it taking away any of the punch - the mix down was not the best.
I changed priority and realease times of the pertruding frequency and the snare was as punchy as it could get without going back into mix stage.
So the L3 multi could be your answer.
Maybe you could back off some of those guitars or bell attenuate the conflicting freqs even if its just on the same side your snare is slightly panned to.
In my experience - lifting frequencies away from the troubled area and dropping freqs in the troubled area can add punch to that snare.
Old 12th May 2011
  #52
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DaBadAss's Avatar
 

SPL Transient Designer

Check it out:

SPL® Transient Designer Plug-In | Universal Audio

Sometimes if you use the hardware or plugin version before it can help when at the limiting stage.
Old 12th May 2011
  #53
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrappa View Post
It's horrible on hear there is never a definative answer. Don't tell me - Thats music for ya.

I am no M/E but i have dabbled in a bit of it. I had a track where the snare was being reduced by 6dB by the L3 multi limiter.
Although i couldn't really hear it taking away any of the punch - the mix down was not the best.
I changed priority and realease times of the pertruding frequency and the snare was as punchy as it could get without going back into mix stage.
So the L3 multi could be your answer.
Maybe you could back off some of those guitars or bell attenuate the conflicting freqs even if its just on the same side your snare is slightly panned to.
In my experience - lifting frequencies away from the troubled area and dropping freqs in the troubled area can add punch to that snare.
The L3 is definitely not the answer!

You will completely kill the depth of the mix with that nasty little plug!

You may attenuate the gtr's, etc, but the kick N snare will still sound really flat N dimensionless!
Old 13th May 2011
  #54
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
The L3 is definitely not the answer!

You will completely kill the depth of the mix with that nasty little plug!

You may attenuate the gtr's, etc, but the kick N snare will still sound really flat N dimensionless!

Kick was fine as it was only just being limited but snare was a problem- did say L3 multi. Sup with that plugin and what would you recommend?

I like being able to limit the frequency range separately - which is what enabled me to keep the snare tolerable with out losing too much punch.
Im a amature tho

Last edited by soultrappa; 13th May 2011 at 01:08 AM.. Reason: addin
Old 13th May 2011
  #55
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrappa View Post
Kick was fine as it was only just being limited but snare was a problem- did say L3 multi. Sup with that plugin and what would you recommend?

I like being able to limit the frequency range separately - which is what enabled me to keep the snare tolerable with out losing too much punch.
Im a amature tho
Keeping the snare tolerable is definitely not enough!
I was also referring to the L3 Multi and/or L316.
Both plugs really degrade the signal.

It should still sound the way it did when the mix eng mixed it.

You'd be better off using a decent EQ and comp!
Old 13th May 2011
  #56
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
Keeping the snare tolerable is definitely not enough!
I was also referring to the L3 Multi and/or L316.
Both plugs really degrade the signal.

It should still sound the way it did when the mix eng mixed it.

You'd be better off using a decent EQ and comp!
The snare did sound the way - in fact better

What would you do in the situation that the mixdown has a bad snare anyway but there is no stems, project file or way to get the single snare corrected.

Again which plug-ins do you suggest?

sorry only software based.
Old 13th May 2011
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
We're talking -3dB for the latest stuff and even slightly higher.
-3dB?

-3dB RMS?!

What meter are you using to get that reading? What master? Even Death Magnetic isn't nearly that loud on any of my meters...

J~
Old 15th May 2011
  #58
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrappa View Post
The snare did sound the way - in fact better

What would you do in the situation that the mixdown has a bad snare anyway but there is no stems, project file or way to get the single snare corrected.

Again which plug-ins do you suggest?

sorry only software based.
Possibly some upward expansion?

99.99% of mixes come in to me as either split mono or stereo interleaved.
There will usually be a vox up and vox down but no stems.

If the drum sound isn't happening, I'll often punch things up a little.

Slow comp attack, etc.

There are also a few plugs out there (none of em limiters) that can get a drum light mix happening again but you have to be pretty subtle with it at the same time.

You don't wanna be treading on the mix too much.
Old 16th May 2011
  #59
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
Possibly some upward expansion?

99.99% of mixes come in to me as either split mono or stereo interleaved.
There will usually be a vox up and vox down but no stems.

If the drum sound isn't happening, I'll often punch things up a little.

Slow comp attack, etc.

There are also a few plugs out there (none of em limiters) that can get a drum light mix happening again but you have to be pretty subtle with it at the same time.

You don't wanna be treading on the mix too much.
Its ok talking about effecting the drum track or bus but how do you punch things up without punching up other instruments.

Lets say you have a mix thats perfectly balanced bar the snare - you can hear it but it seems as tho whoever mixed it tried using compression to add punch but actually ended up sucking the life out of the transient. You do not have access to the snare or drum track and the user does not under any circumstance want you to try to phase invert the snare (to try to get rid) and back it up with another snare/or back it up with another snare. What do you do?

No send it back and ask artist to.........
No ask for stems............

so whats next choice - and can you help me with using a comp or limiter to give dynamic value back to the snare?
Old 16th May 2011
  #60
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Verified Member
adding "distortion" , just find/pick the right one ... see if it fits the track(s) ...
distortion sometimes lifts just that right snap ...
distortion can be created by using your limiter right ... look ahead, just all parameters involve distortion added in some kind of way ...
like a female vocal with the HEDD - pentode at 2 ... sometimes that's the only salty thing that works.

less compression/ just pick the right one .. snappy/ssl style etc.
slow attack/fast release .. ratio .. just listen.
find the right limiting ..
avoid up-sampling.
you've got to keep what's there ...
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