The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Wavelab output question... DAW Software
Old 16th December 2010
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Silvertone's Avatar
Wavelab output question...

Just wondering... in Wavelab, is it possible to output at one sample rate (into the analog domain) and capture back in at a different sample rate within the same project?

Pro Tools and a few other programs don't allow this but I always wondered if Wavelab does allow this?
Old 16th December 2010
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
Just wondering... in Wavelab, is it possible to output at one sample rate (into the analog domain) and capture back in at a different sample rate within the same project?

Pro Tools and a few other programs don't allow this but I always wondered if Wavelab does allow this?
If you are recording it to a separate file with a different sample rate no problem. We have done this on numerous occasions with our RME card.
Old 16th December 2010
  #3
Tom,

Are you talking about a loop capture, with a single card?

Please clarify how you're able to playback at one sample rate and capture another stream at a different rate with a single interface in WL7 (or 6 for that matter). Maybe a hardware thing? Does the RME card let you set different rates for each i/o port?
Old 16th December 2010
  #4
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
Just wondering... in Wavelab, is it possible to output at one sample rate (into the analog domain) and capture back in at a different sample rate within the same project?
Hi

Playing a 44.1 kHz wav file through Wavelab routing it into hardware devices and, sending the signal back to Wavelab recording at 88.2 kHz is my standard procedure.

Cheers!
Old 16th December 2010
  #5
Are you resampling the 44.1 in Crystal, and clocking the whole system at 88.2 or using multiple cards running at different rates? I ask because I have WL7 and outboard and would love to know!

If the former, you're adding some variables (SRC), and I get it. I'm interested in a variation... in my mastering room the other way around is ideal (playback/process at 88.2, capture at 44.1), but typically requires multiple cards, outboard or external SRC etc.

Clarity please!
Old 16th December 2010
  #6
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Davis View Post
Are you resampling the 44.1 in Crystal, and clocking the whole system at 88.2 or using multiple cards running at different rates? I ask because I have WL7 and outboard and would love to know!

If the former, you're adding some variables (SRC), and I get it. I'm interested in a variation... in my mastering room the other way around is ideal (playback/process at 88.2, capture at 44.1), but typically requires multiple cards, outboard or external SRC etc.

Clarity please!
Hi.

Wavelab is capable of playing a wav file and record at the same time (real time).

It is a matter of selecting what sample rate you need for recording.

You don't require multiple soundcards in order to have this option. A single sound card is fine providing it is capable of recording at the sample rate you desire.

If it required multiple sound cards I would not be able to do it.

Cheers!
Old 16th December 2010
  #7
OK, well, this really isn't the same thing the OP (or at least I) was asking about. If the interface capturing the input is running at 44.1, a WL capture from an external loop on a single card can only be 88.2 via upsampling (SRC). If it's running at 88.2, SRC on capture can downsample it, but again, that's a DSP variable, not the same thing as a native 44.1 capture (especially if you're using things like a Weiss EQ1 full bore).

Normally the objective is to playback and process at high sample rate, like 88.2 where plugs often sound better, and you can deliver the highest quality signal to analog outboard, while capturing the processed analog to an input to a native 44.1 stream, for marks and delivery.

I believe Sequoia can playback a native 88.2 stream and capture native 44.1 (analog or digital input) via another card. I can make WL or DSP-Quattro do it running 2 instances, pointed at 2 different interfaces running at different sample rates. Logic probably could do the same thing, but never tested. PTHD cannot, since it takes over any HD hardware it sees, but maybe a couple instances of PT9 or a Native + HD rig could.

Anyway it seems like we're talking about different things, but maybe I'm missing something. I'm a green newbie in WL, and it's a deep, powerful app.
Old 16th December 2010
  #8
Gear Addict
 

Hi

Are you refering to this?

The sound card is looped through the Microsoft Mapper in the computer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhUpm7ynFuA

I don't use Weiss. I have a rack full of Ashly, Rane & DBX processing which uses XLR connections.

Cheers!
Old 16th December 2010
  #9
If your soundcard's running at 44.1, you're capturing 44.1 in both digital and analog domains, regardless of the file's specified Fs in the save dialog. The extra octave in the analog domain from your chain never reaches the box at all, unless you're capturing 88.2 native (in which case WL is upsampling the 44.1 source via Crystal on the way out and the sound card is running at 88.2 - hence SRC as stated originally).

I'm guessing in that YouTube video the card's just clocking at 88.2 and decimating the output, but since it's a MS product I have no experience or insight beyond a guess... You could test by using non-integer rates, like 96K out and 44.1 in; to do this requires either multiple physical clock circuits (which few if any cards possess), or more likely in a stock setting, some whacky OS-based SRC. I'd trust WL7 and Crystal for resampling in real time over anything MS cooks up.
Old 16th December 2010
  #10
Gear Addict
 

Hi.

None of my DAWs are connected to the Internet so I can only show you a video demonstration on my Internet Computer. I can conduct the same test on 96 or 192 kHz if you like. I do have plug-ins that only activates certain bands at higher sample rates that I can use as reference.

From experience Wavelab is the only DAW that offers this feature. You may want to contact PG on how such a design was implemented for the version used in the video is 11 years old. Version 7 offers a plethora of features from a technical standpoint however the average Wavelab user may not be too concerned about those options.

I can assure you that the recording is indeed higher in terms of frequency bandwidth. However, if there is no significant energy beyond 20 kHz (and below 20 Hz) you are not really gaining anything. That track in the video should be limited to around 60 – 12 kHz.

Plug-ins that performs better on higher sample rates is based on the topology of the design. If the developer doesn't have high sample rates on his or her mind, the plug-in will not sound better and, at times, can offer less high frequencies.

I would imagine you would need to dabble around with your collection of plug-ins to hear if it is worth it.

Greetings From New York!
Old 16th December 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
What about the Word Clock?

Seems like you would want the ADC to be the master WC on capture.

Having two diff sampling rates running on one card, doesn't make sense to me.

Unless WL7 allows the source file to be at it's own rate.

Also may be an OS thing, Mac OSX vs Windows.

JT
Old 16th December 2010
  #12
Yah, very likely an OS thing, as I have WL7 and can verify it's impossible to playback a 48K file at it's native rate, and capture it to the same interface at 44.1 or 88.2. The problem is as you'd expect: the ULN8 has just one clock, and it runs at only one rate. Since MIOs don't work on PCs this is def apprears to be a mac thing over here. But really who knows? WL7 has no real manual, just a half-baked bizarre online help system that's chock full of unusual terminology - for instance you don't "bounce" or "export" files in WL7, you render them; searching for "bounce" yields nothing, search for "export" leads to project file exports etc. I've had the app for 3 months, and can do basic operations, but anything beyond that is a complete mystery. Even old WL6 manuals are no help, since the GUIs so changed. A real mess right now... I'd suggest mac switchers hold off a bit until Steiny sorts out the documentation. As it is there's not even a decent tutorial available, much less a full on manual.

That said, I can state that WL7 can playback any file at it's native rate and capture a file at any arbitrary rate. But as noted this is SRC, not playback/record at different asynch rates.

As Sirelliot notes, you can capture a 44.1K file, upsampled to 88.2 on the way out automagically by Crystal Resampler, and capture it at the running 88.2 rate, and maintain all benefits of the higher Fs processing. This isn't so mindbending, but still pretty cool!

-d-
Old 16th December 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Davis View Post
But really who knows? WL7 has no real manual, just a half-baked bizarre online help system that's chock full of unusual terminology - for instance you don't "bounce" or "export" files in WL7, you render them; searching for "bounce" yields nothing, search for "export" leads to project file exports etc. I've had the app for 3 months, and can do basic operations, but anything beyond that is a complete mystery. Even old WL6 manuals are no help, since the GUIs so changed. A real mess right now... I'd suggest mac switchers hold off a bit until Steiny sorts out the documentation. As it is there's not even a decent tutorial available, much less a full on manual.
Indeed, I spent a few hours with WL7 Mac last weekend, it's still a mystery, documentation seem to start with "do the paint job, then shingle the roof, then texture the walls", barely a mention of the foundation, framing and plumbing...

and I thought Sonic had a steep learning curve ; - )

Cheers, JT

p.s. hats off to WL users who figured it out long ago...
Old 17th December 2010
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Silvertone's Avatar
Thanks for the insight everybody. Seems like WL can't do what I want... playback 88.2 into the analog domain and capture back at 44.1 in the same session. This is why I'm currently running two computer systems.

I hate SRC'ing so I try to capture back at 44.1. Seems like I'll have to get a Mac Mini to playback higher sample rates.

I'm about to give my Nephew my old system with P/T and an 002 rack, Sonic, Jam, Sample Manager and all my UA plug-ins and card. He's in his first year at music college and needs a PT system for next semester. It was my playback system for a long time (last 5 years).

Now I'm just trying to figure out a way to do this work with one computer. Oh well, maybe I'll be SRC'ing in the not to distant future!

btw, I've been learning Waveburner since it's loaded on my new system anyway. I just use these systems to assemble and burn the master (never any ITB processing). I have to ask, what's wrong with Waveburner? It seems like an easy enough program to use and the resulting disc's nulled fine. So why does it seem that nobody likes this program? It was way easier to learn than Sonic.

Thanks everyone.
Old 17th December 2010
  #15
Actually the path you describe should be fine - the SRC is among my favorites, and certainly no more lossy than any A/D, preference aside. IOW you should be able to clock at 88.2, and capture with better fidelity via SRC than a down-clocked port could provide.

As to WBP, it has a few issues that keep me away, most revolving around plugs. I've also had delivery complaints from masters it makes by some plants, esp wrt CD Text. It's had a number of small issues that add up to me not trusting it, especially given Apple's rare updates and fixes for it (giving the impression it's all but unsupported).
Old 17th December 2010
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
Now I'm just trying to figure out a way to do this work with one computer.
Hey Larry,

Recent experiments proved that I could easily run PT8 & sB 2 in tandem on the same Mac Pro at different rates, thanks to 2 different Core Audio devices and drivers. I may switch over to this next year, but for now am quite happy with the dual daw approach. I'd bet that PT8 (or 9) and WL7 would do this as well.

Cheers, JT
Old 17th December 2010
  #17
Lives for gear
 
inlinenl's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Silvertone I think you can do what you want
you just need to separate audiocards.
you have to open wavaelab twice ( second instance ) - > easy from the tools menu.
on the second instance of wavelab you select the other device as payback/recording hardware and voila there you have it .. just set it up to the correct in-coming rate/depth

maybe it's even possible in the single wavelab instance, but again with two diff audiocards .. but I'm not sure about that ...
you would have to check the clocking I think ..

the other one I tried ..
Old 17th December 2010
  #18
Lives for gear
 
ed littman's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I've posted this on another thread but maybe it can be helpful here.

I use two RME cards in one box with older rme drivers that allow the two cards to be totally independant.

Tools>open a new WL application.
option>preferences> audio device> chose card/routing.


I Use three instances of WL6
1.Source- montage of original mixes routed to RME 9632 set to mme-spdif out autosync. (plays any sample rate automatically) Routs to analog chain.

2.Capture- using the audio input plug, input set to playback output (to mointor whats beeing recorded).Can load plugins at the end of my analog chain. RME AES32 set to ASIO channel 1 & 2. Clocked to my Lavry Gold ADC

3. Assemble- processed songs in a 2nd montage. RME AES32 set to ASIO channel 3 & 4 for playback. Easy to compare what I'm doing to what has been done. Clocked to the Lavry Gold ADC.

This has been a very stable set up for many years & I essentially can quickly A/B/C each instance as needed.
Old 17th December 2010
  #19
It's worth mentioning that you can use the Built-In audio for one of the cards via optical outs to an external DAC like a Benchmark. If you have an old DAT machine, you can convert the TOS to AES/EBU for more flexibility in interconnect. Then use your main card/interface as the capture A/D. You can playback from another instance of WL7 or any other DAW and capture in WL7.

-d-
Old 17th December 2010
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Hi.

Wavelab does not care if you play an 88.2 kHz file and, record using 44.1 kHz in real-time on a single sound card.

If you are having difficulty doing so, it may be due using a Macintosh Computer. Windows does not offer such an obstacle.

It may be best to consult a Wavelab 7 user operating a Macintosh computer since version 6 and under were only designed for Windows.

Possibly you are assuming Wavelab follows the same method as a DAW that is aimed for making music in which, you can open an additional track and set it to record.

Bear in mind Wavelab is not a Multi-track Recording system hence, the reason why you must either loop the input/outputs internally or route the output to your desired processors and, send it back into the inputs.



Cheers!
Old 19th December 2010
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Davis View Post
WL7 has no real manual, just a half-baked bizarre online help system that's chock full of unusual terminology - for instance you don't "bounce" or "export" files in WL7, you render them; searching for "bounce" yields nothing, search for "export" leads to project file exports etc. I've had the app for 3 months, and can do basic operations, but anything beyond that is a complete mystery. Even old WL6 manuals are no help, since the GUIs so changed. A real mess right now...
Funny how we all see things differently. I have been using WL for over ten years and it is still the single most intuitive DAW I have played with. I have never needed a manual as I always try to do something the way I think it should be done and WL does it that way.

Bounce is something for a ball, export to where? Render is exactly what you are doing, and print makes sense as well.

I am trying to learn Pyramix at the moment and it is an uphill battle. I also bought Samplitude, and use Reaper for recording, because Wavelabs main weakness is multitrack. But as a stereo editor and mastering program, I find it so intelligently designed and built.

Dave, have you got into the montage yet? The montage is WL. I rarely if ever use the WAV window.

Also, let us help you with things on the WL forum, its a very friendly place with us old hands there to help.
www.steinberg.net • View forum - WaveLab 7 | WaveLab Elements 7
Old 19th December 2010
  #22
Lives for gear
 
greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Indeed, I spent a few hours with WL7 Mac last weekend, it's still a mystery, documentation seem to start with "do the paint job, then shingle the roof, then texture the walls", barely a mention of the foundation, framing and plumbing...

and I thought Sonic had a steep learning curve ; - )

Cheers, JT

p.s. hats off to WL users who figured it out long ago...
Don't feel bad. I have been using Wavelab since version 4 and I think Steinberg really blew it by not including a manual. Ironically, WL6 has a fantastic manual.

If you had a PC I would suggest purchasing WL6 with a manual and then migrating over to 7 on the Mac. You can also use the WL6 PDF.

I would also recommend learning the wave edit window simply to become comfortable and then explore the montage. The reason is that I have run into a few people who didn't know wavelab very well who were doing things in the montage that could have been handled much easier and quicker in the wave edit window.
Old 19th December 2010
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
The reason is that I have run into a few people who didn't know wavelab very well who were doing things in the montage that could have been handled much easier and quicker in the wave edit window.
Very interested to hear what these things were.
Old 19th December 2010
  #24
Hi Dave. Thanks for the tips, and yes, I definitely use the Montage - thanks Greggy for tips to rediscover the wave editor too. I found the forums within a week or two of starting my demo and owe it all knowledge I've gleaned to date.

I'll second the referral to the WL6 manual - even for a mac user on WL7 it provides a very nice foundation for the application's workflow and paradigm.

Dave, I think my issues are less related to terminology than function and layout. Reviewing the (great) old manual I'm able to see connections between sections of the app, and how things work. WL7 to a newbie without a manual is like an explosion of toothpick factory - windows everywhere, all look the same for no apparent reason. The Help system simply doesn't (and cannot) show how it all works together, or why one might want to leave the Montage.

Honestly I think we've reached a point where MOST mastering DAWs are less intuitive than tracking DAWs. First of all, there are at least 3 dominant paradigms, and a couple emerging new ones (Wave Editor's "layers" concept comes to mind). WL7 is a little trickier than others because it's an all-encompassing model. It can be a waveform editor, like SD2 or Peak (only it works). It can be an object-oriented non-destructive EDL-based mastering daw like sB, sadie and sequioia. And it has a better batch processor than all of the above, and quite a few dedicated batch processing tools as well. To complicate things a little further, all 3 of these approaches are very well integrated, so you can use them entirely separately or all at once. The changes between WL6 and WL7 make the connections a lot less obvious, but also make each section considerably more powerful. But its a lot to learn.

I'm getting better and faster with it, and have used all of it's functions on billable jobs. There remain issues that make it a bit slower for me in my workflow than my main axe, soundBlade. But it has some features that keep me plugging away... for instance I prefer it's loop-capture workflow (simple insert, anywhere in the path) to sB, making my outboard more flexible. Very cool tool, and with 7.01 more dependable and solid.

-d-
Old 19th December 2010
  #25
Mastering Moderator
 
Riccardo's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Hey Larry,

Recent experiments proved that I could easily run PT8 & sB 2 in tandem on the same Mac Pro at different rates, thanks to 2 different Core Audio devices and drivers. I may switch over to this next year, but for now am quite happy with the dual daw approach. I'd bet that PT8 (or 9) and WL7 would do this as well.

Cheers, JT
I have also started "testing" this config with PT and sB running on the same puter. No issues so far. PT playing back 48k, sB capturing 44.1.
I'll experiment a bit more when time allows.
Old 19th December 2010
  #26
Heya Riccardo,

That combo's been stable for YEARS actually... I left a job in 2008 where I'd been running sB alongside PT for 2 years prior to that. Works great.
Old 19th December 2010
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riccardo View Post
I have also started "testing" this config with PT and sB running on the same puter. No issues so far. PT playing back 48k, sB capturing 44.1.
I'll experiment a bit more when time allows.
Excellent! I think it's a great workflow.

The only thing that's keeping me from going to this approach full-time at the moment is I like using Sonic NoNoise & Crane Song Phoenix with PTHD 7.4 on my vintage G5, the source DAW.

So the options I'm considering:

Get a PCIe HD core card to run PTHD8 on the Mac Pro alongside sB 2.0, place the G5 in semi-retirement with the other legacy DAWs.

Run PT LE 8 natively on the Mac Pro incorporating iZotope Rx into the workflow (instead of NoNoise for PT), along with sB 2.0 & NoNoise II, and find some other ITB solution for occasional ITB analog color.

Add WaveLab 7 Mac into the fray for some of its advanced features, alongside sB2.0, perhaps in place of PT.

So 2011 will be a fun productive year for experimenting with DAW workflow, yet another fun part of the mastering gig.

JT
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Pronecobra / Music Computers
5
perx / Music Computers
5
Measuring Man / Mastering forum
10
Djembe / Mastering forum
2
Slogun / Music Computers
4

Forum Jump
Forum Jump