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Cut everything below......??? Equalizer Plugins
Old 31st March 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 

Cut everything below......???

Hi,

i wanna ask with freq. i have to cut to make dance music?
Some say everything below 40 Hz and some say below 30 Hz.
Is it not wise to put an Lowcut on the masterchannel?

thanks.
Old 31st March 2010
  #2
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Generally speaking I cut below 30Hz.

But it all depends on the track that I am working with and the EQ I am working with. Not all EQs have the same roll-off slope in their highpass filters.
Old 31st March 2010
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mameboy View Post
Hi,

i wanna ask with freq. i have to cut to make dance music?
Some say everything below 40 Hz and some say below 30 Hz.
Is it not wise to put an Lowcut on the masterchannel?

thanks.
You don't have to do anything.
As safeandsound says, just listen to what it sounds like with or without various filters. If it sounds better to you on a system with good sub response, do it. If it makes it sound thin, don't.
Old 31st March 2010
  #4
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Precisely. The only necessary cutoff would be 0.00(...)001 Hz, or whatever your definition of DC is. Will one cycle each decade do or shall we think in millennias?
Old 31st March 2010
  #5
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I always high-pass at 21kHz. You get incredible amounts of headroom back that way.
Old 31st March 2010
  #6
Vum
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And regarding dance music/club music - if you can't monitor as low as possible while mixing/mastering you're better off erring on the side of caution and cutting out those low frequencies. Clubs typically hype the bass anyways, anything too swampy going into the system is going to come out sounding bad.

Start with what these guys were saying by filtering at 40,30,21 and check them in an environment (like a car) where you can boost the hell out of the bass with a shelving filter. That is a pretty good test when I do rap/dance etc.
Old 31st March 2010
  #7
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OK, let's say we like 40 Hz for the corner, so what type of filter will best flatter rock and pop? What about other music styles??
Old 31st March 2010
  #8
Gear Maniac
so much depends on the music. do you want featured, prominent bass? where you start to roll off (if you actually do) can be contingent on the key of the song, too.

i just finshed a jazz funk master for a client that was mixed bass-heavy. i don't think the listening conditions where mixing was done are ideal...they wanted that 'meat' in there, though, and asked me to keep as much as they could while "clearing things up" a bit...

i found that having to do some (subtle) low end cut was the only way to clean up these mixes at mastering (well, i did duck out some mud between 200-300 on some tunes). the "corners" on these ranged from 25-32Hz in most cases. only once did i get above 40Hz with a lo-cut.

and, it was a gentle slope about -4db...

recently mastered a brass recording done at a local state university, and did some gentle sloping again in the 50-60Hz range, but i did have to watch that when those tunes incorporated a marching band-style bass drum. too much, and that puppy will disappear.

rock stuff: which instrument, bass, synth, or kick, does the music seem to 'feature' more in the bottom end?...or are these blended more to perfrom as one? how dense is the mix? lots of things to consider.

since we're talking low end here, it pays to know the fundamentals of the instruments occupying that range and begin working from there...and, again, it often pays to consider the key the piece is in for better fine tuning...

best,
Old 31st March 2010
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
I always high-pass at 21kHz. You get incredible amounts of headroom back that way.
Using some/most minimum phase filters actually causes more headroom to be lost because of the bump at the cut off frequency.
Old 31st March 2010
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
I always high-pass at 21kHz. You get incredible amounts of headroom back that way.
Indeed lots of headroom...
Did you mean [email protected] or [email protected]?
Or was it a joke?

I´m slow today.. no coffee :(
Old 31st March 2010
  #11
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It was a joke.

I'll stop all that in the future, my apologies.
Old 31st March 2010
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
It was a joke.

I'll stop all that in the future, my apologies.
I hear humor grows hair on your palms and makes your spinal fluid leak out.
Old 31st March 2010
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertone View Post
Indeed lots of headroom...
Did you mean [email protected] or [email protected]?
Or was it a joke?

I´m slow today.. no coffee :(
+1 - didn't see the k - nevermind
Old 31st March 2010
  #14
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I would say understand the difference between filters. For instance, know that a sharp filter in a minimum phase design can cause resonance near the filter's frequency. Especially when using plugins, they have a nice little graph showing you a nice clean filter, but the graphic is not necessarily accurate. For some fun, run pink noise through a filter (filter meaning EQ) and pop a spectral analyser after it to see what is REALLY happening to the signal. Of course use your ears, but it is nice to know the science behind this stuff so you know why things work the way they do. I really like Reaper's ReaEQ for this as it will show you phase and let you screw with the slope of a filter.

One note on using a HPF, they are also useful for cleaning up DC offset and that can indeed buy you some head room.
Old 31st March 2010
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
It was a joke.

I'll stop all that in the future, my apologies.
Yes, there is no room for humour in mastering, i should know,
added a bongo track to some songs the other day, apparently not ok!?
Old 31st March 2010
  #16
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If the waveform looks visibly asymmetrical, it's probably a good idea to high pass as low as possible for DC purposes. Up to maybe 15-20Hz is OK. Otherwise don't do any high passing lower than your monitors go!

Maybe 30Hz is appropriate for a mix, maybe 40 is but that's fairly rare in my experience.

If it sounds the same with and without high pass, unless you're very confident in your monitors/room it's best to do nothing in case you're removing something that improves the mix under different conditions.
Old 31st March 2010
  #17
t_d
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cut everything below 12k.
Old 31st March 2010
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtalahde View Post
I hear humor grows hair on your palms and makes your spinal fluid leak out.
Yikes!
Old 31st March 2010
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
Using some/most minimum phase filters actually causes more headroom to be lost because of the bump at the cut off frequency.
So is linear phase the way to go in order to have more headroom?
Old 31st March 2010
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertone View Post
added a bongo track to some songs the other day, apparently not ok
It's a good way to have some of the transient impact back.
Old 31st March 2010
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diogo_c View Post
So is linear phase the way to go in order to have more headroom?
They all do the same thing in essence... however they do it differently and have their own problems. Linear phase can have ringing issues (though, so can minimum phase, but at least it is only susceptible to post ringing). Steep filters in general make all the limitations of a design come to the surface.

Though, careful with "headroom" talk. Are we talking head room in a power amp, a wide band sidechain causing a compressor to go nuts due to rumble, high frequency transients causing us to hit 0dbFS? DC offset can rob you of amplitude head room ( ie: things peak at say 3dbFS hotter than they should). In that case yes, rolling off the low end will give you back that amplitude potential... but only if you have a DC offset problem to begin with.
Old 31st March 2010
  #22
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As always in mastering the rule is there's no rule !

You want to cut ... then listen to what changes when you cut. For some music even a cut below 20hz is not a good option. Be sure to be able to hear what's happening that low.
OF course it's a common technique to cut at least at 20-25hz to avoid losing too much energy in the lows and have more impact a bit higher.

You really can get very interesting low end by keeping the 30hz range depending on the music instruments and arrangement
Old 31st March 2010
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump View Post
They all do the same thing in essence... however they do it differently and have their own problems. Linear phase can have ringing issues (though, so can minimum phase, but at least it is only susceptible to post ringing). Steep filters in general make all the limitations of a design come to the surface.

Though, careful with "headroom" talk. Are we talking head room in a power amp, a wide band sidechain causing a compressor to go nuts due to rumble, high frequency transients causing us to hit 0dbFS? DC offset can rob you of amplitude head room ( ie: things peak at say 3dbFS hotter than they should). In that case yes, rolling off the low end will give you back that amplitude potential... but only if you have a DC offset problem to begin with.
Thanks for the input. I'm aware of the DC offset issue, but my point was regarding EQ types and the "bumps" of some HPFs. Generally speaking, there's that idea of "cutting the low low low end" in order to get a bit more headroom, but we have that bump on some HPF designs (mentioned by Waltz Mastering). So which design will give a smaller "bump"?
Old 31st March 2010
  #24
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Another mastering myth!
Old 1st April 2010
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diogo_c View Post
there's that idea of "cutting the low low low end" in order to get a bit more headroom, but we have that bump on some HPF designs. So which design will give a smaller "bump"?
Preference and sound aside, It's easy to verify if you put up a mp plug and notice the peak level before and after and then do the same with a lp.
Old 1st April 2010
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
Preference and sound aside, It's easy to verify if you put up a mp plug and notice the peak level before and after and then do the same with a lp.
Yes, but as some plugs shows you no bump at all you start to get a little paranoid. At least the bump is not on their GUIs so I feel like it is better to feed my paranoia and test, test, test......and the 2 plugs I trust for that task shows no bumps, but they sound great (Epure and Equality).

@ Ben F = LOL, Friedemann Tischmeyer is one of the responsibles for spreading that myth around! heh

Thanks for the help guys!
Old 1st April 2010
  #27
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Regarding the increase in level when HPFing, it's not just down to the amplitude response (ripple), but also due to phase shift reaching a considerable way above the cutoff.

See here .

As the frequency decreases towards the cutoff, the amount of phase shift increases, causing the constituent frequencies of a signal to add up (I'll avoid the word 'sum') differently. This results in a different peak level, which often is greater than the previous peak level.

This is why you don't see it in a LinPh filter. It's not just about the amplitude response, but the phase response and the content of the signal.

Old 1st April 2010
  #28
Gear Head
 

The credibility of this forum always going down... No people can just answer the questions asked... This kind of stupid answer are the reason why BK don't post here any more and why I come here one day a week...

Come on guys...
Old 1st April 2010
  #29
Gear Maniac
^^^somebody has to say it: lighten up, frances
Old 1st April 2010
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
Regarding the increase in level when HPFing, it's not just down to the amplitude response (ripple), but also due to phase shift reaching a considerable way above the cutoff.

See here .

As the frequency decreases towards the cutoff, the amount of phase shift increases, causing the constituent frequencies of a signal to add up (I'll avoid the word 'sum') differently. This results in a different peak level, which often is greater than the previous peak level.

This is why you don't see it in a LinPh filter. It's not just about the amplitude response, but the phase response and the content of the signal.

Thanks for the enlightenment. thumbsup
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