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Heroes of Anti-Loudness. Dynamics Plugins
Old 23rd March 2010
  #31
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I thought it was "Herpes of Anti-Loudness."
Old 23rd March 2010
  #32
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24-96 Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaySickLy View Post
You have officially won this conversation!

Lol honestly, though I might have been writing confidently, I don't really know what I'm talking about on this topic.

I was mostly bsing with some undeveloped theory seeing if I could sneak it in there and to see if anyone bought it.

It's refreshing to have a discussion with a true critical thinker who posseses sound reasoning and I respect that you politely called me on my bs hypothesis.

*goes to study physics of sound*
Ha, I feel like a twat now. I hope my firmness before didn't come across as arrogance.

As I mentioned before, if I take your comments to be with regard to 'mixing hot for the sound of it', and not about 'mastering a CD loud while accepting that a mix is being subjected to necessary degradation', your argument makes sense to me completely.
Old 24th March 2010
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaySickLy View Post
Loudness = Energy.
Dynamics = Introspective/Focus on detail.

...you are left with a movement of anti-loudness by a disconnected mixer-listener relationship. To hate loudness is to hate anyone that has different testosteroe levels than you.

...it's like going on a rollercoaster vs going on a lazy river river lagoon ride.

On a rollercoaster you get an experience of viceral intensity that overwhelms your body and mind.

...
The mixing engineers who are fans of lagoon rides are arguing that a rollercoaster should have more nuance.

It's like missing the whole point of riding a rollercoaster. (aka driving down the street with your volume on max just bumpin the hell out of the music.) that's a viceral experience that most people enjoy moreso than contemplating the nuance of a perfect dynamic mix.
This is very misguided. You are talking about macro dynamics. The song does not get quiet/loud within itself. It is just full-blast.

That is not what this is all about. We're talking micro dynamics: The milliseconds that occupy a drum hit. That is what gets crushed. That is what sounds horrible once it is gone.



Loud and quiet have nothing to do with the RMS on a CD. Loud has to do with the sound coming out of the speakers. And that is controlled by a volume knob. The CD could have an RMS of -16 and it can be as loud and visceral as I want it to be.

The dumb unwashed masses can have their roller coaster (incidentally, you don't even have to be a testosterone beast to like that stuff). What, do you think nobody rolled along blasting their car stereo in 1993? The only difference is the knob was further to the right. It wouldn't have been louder if the CD was louder. We already had it as loud as we could take it. And the knob had room to go further. If the CD was louder, the knob would have just been further to the left.

And the real kicker is that a screaming loud playback of a track with a sane RMS and the microdynamics in tact sounds louder than a -5 RMS track blasted at an equal perceived volume because the drums can actually rise above the rest and hit you for real.

A true testosterone-soaked caveman would get an even bigger rush and an even louder experience if the CD was not as "loud".



Again: The giant misconception is that the loudness is on the CD. It is not. It is in the amplifier and speakers. All of this limiting for volume is pure damage and nothing else.
Old 24th March 2010
  #34
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan s View Post
I have noticed that every time I listen to Shellac, I have to turn it up from what I was listening to before. It doesn't surprise me, coming from audio geeks that haven't been shy about hate for compression. I think the music is what rocks, not the loudness. If you record a song that is played loud with an emotionally explosive feel, you don't have to crush the crap out of it. Emotional energy is always better than a crushed track, not that squeezing it a bit doesn't help get the point across but the feel should be there to begin with.
And let me guess, because you've turned it up (1000 Hurts, anyway), that REALLY LOUD BIT after a silence in one of the tracks makes you jump every time? heh I know it does me, and it certainly wouldn't have the same impact if the whole album was maximised all the way through...

Speaking of Steve Albini, and also a fairly modern record that has a fantastic dynamic range: Dogs, the first album by Nina Nastasia. Brilliant. In fact probably any of her albums sound just as good, but that's the only one I've listened to very much on CD (so far...)
Old 25th March 2010
  #35
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Mark Knopfler (studio albums from 2007 and 2009). Also the last two John Mayer records don't sound too loud to me.
Old 25th March 2010
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaySickLy View Post
Loudness jumps out at you and captures your attention without you having to devote attention. It does the work for you. The immersion is more potent if the song is mixed louder. Why would someone make a song less captivating in this MTV generation world of short attention spans.
Maximum loudness is set by the users volume knob. Reducing dynamic range on an arbitrary storage medium does nothing but reduce dynamic range, it does not make anything louder or quieter in an absolute sense. If you play a flatlined mix and a mix with dynamics at the same volume (not the same knob setting, the same volume), the flatlined mix sounds wimpy and quiet with no punch whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaySickLy View Post
Obviously there is a consumer demand for mixing things hot. Now what is the argument for not giving consumers what they respond to again?
First of all, I'd like to see the reputable scientific evidence to support that. How can "hot" be defined in an absolute sense when the actual volume is controlled by the user? I bet a controlled test with volumes matched would prove just the opposite of what you're suggesting. The mixes with dynamics would sound far louder and punchier even to the layperson.
Old 25th March 2010
  #37
Gear Head
 

I say this in the nicest possible way. Love you all but threads like this crack me up. All the op asked for was recommendations of albums masterd with tastful dynamics and maybe the name of the ME, and we drag the thread down a totally different and beaten path!
Gearsluts R Us!
Old 25th March 2010
  #38
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
There's no evidence of any preference for loudness beyond the first fifteen to thirty seconds. In fact on the radio the added distortion makes people change the station sooner.
Old 25th March 2010
  #39
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Bubbakron's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
There's no evidence of any preference for loudness beyond the first fifteen to thirty seconds. In fact on the radio the added distortion makes people change the station sooner.
Exactly, I think the most over looked aspect of music production is ear fatigue- and its soooo important at the same time!!!!!
Old 8th April 2010
  #40
Gear Nut
well, me!

I'm not famous, but I'm a gearslutz addicted so I clearly stated with the ME that I strongly preferred dynamics over loudness.

an example:

Chill - track 1 from my new record "Morning"

Cheers!

-----------
www.pietrogirardi.com
Old 9th April 2010
  #41
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I'm all about quality and dynamics, I do my damn hardest to convince someone I am working with to go with dynamics over loudness, Create a
balance between the two and it's perfect. Don't compress it 6db, don't limit
it 800dB. No brick, d-y-n-a-m-i-c-s. For the love of gods, dynamics!!!

That being said, I listen to a lot of black metal and death metal. Ironic eh?

heh
Old 9th April 2010
  #42
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Table Of Tone's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I just try N give em what they ask for and try N make it sound as good as possible!
I'll tell em it'll sound better if it's not stupidly loud.

Sometimes that sinks in.
Sometimes it don't!

What can ya do?
Old 9th April 2010
  #43
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Waltz Mastering's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
What can ya do?
Sometimes for trying to gauge a new online client, I'll give them a sample choice to choose from.

"Conservative" and "Loud" but as tasteful as possible. Guess which one they go for most of the time...not always though...
Old 9th April 2010
  #44
Gear Head
 

most dynamic record i know of:
slint - Spiderland

then there's Grizzly Bears Veckatimest which isn't too loud either. the newest "lightspeed champion" is very dynamic too....
Old 9th April 2010
  #45
Gear Nut
 

Ive got a Son House - Delta Blues and Spirituals album that I love. Also, I think over time I've grown tired of the wall of noise and changed a couple of my car radio presets from the standard rock stations to toronto's jazz station and classical station. I wouldn't say i'm a die hard of either but the dynamics are so refreshing (even if its over the radio).

That's another point... it's one things for a ME to crush a record (whether it be his/her own decision or that of the producer/artist) but if its going on the radio... guh. Radio stations will often have multiple compressors compressing their music before transmission reducing the dynamics even more. All too often I hear a track on the radio and it just doesn't feel right and i'll grab the ACTUAL album (which may or may not also be crushed) and play that and it will be way better.

...when you can tell that a musician is getting louder but the volume isnt rising there is a problem. It's like an aural/psychological confusion that, personally, makes me uncomfortable.
Old 3rd June 2010
  #46
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat View Post
This is very misguided. You are talking about macro dynamics. The song does not get quiet/loud within itself. It is just full-blast.

That is not what this is all about. We're talking micro dynamics: The milliseconds that occupy a drum hit. That is what gets crushed. That is what sounds horrible once it is gone.



Loud and quiet have nothing to do with the RMS on a CD. Loud has to do with the sound coming out of the speakers. And that is controlled by a volume knob. The CD could have an RMS of -16 and it can be as loud and visceral as I want it to be.

The dumb unwashed masses can have their roller coaster (incidentally, you don't even have to be a testosterone beast to like that stuff). What, do you think nobody rolled along blasting their car stereo in 1993? The only difference is the knob was further to the right. It wouldn't have been louder if the CD was louder. We already had it as loud as we could take it. And the knob had room to go further. If the CD was louder, the knob would have just been further to the left.

And the real kicker is that a screaming loud playback of a track with a sane RMS and the microdynamics in tact sounds louder than a -5 RMS track blasted at an equal perceived volume because the drums can actually rise above the rest and hit you for real.

A true testosterone-soaked caveman would get an even bigger rush and an even louder experience if the CD was not as "loud".



Again: The giant misconception is that the loudness is on the CD. It is not. It is in the amplifier and speakers. All of this limiting for volume is pure damage and nothing else.

This needs to be printed as a sign and hung in every ME's studio for client's to see and hopefully understand!!!
Old 3rd June 2010
  #47
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Teddy Ray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
Wilco
thumbsup

Also...Loose Fur, and any other band Jim O Rourke is involved with..

Alison Krauss/Union Station records(especially Live) are great. The Wailin Jennys 40 Days...

Ryan Adams/Cardinals- Easy Tiger and "Cold Roses"

I see that those were mastered by Bob Ludwig and Doug Sax, Fred Kevorkian, and Konrad Strauss. so there you go. Heroes of Anti-loudness. And amazing sound.
Old 3rd June 2010
  #48
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streetbeats's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
Bob Weston of Chicago Mastering plays bass in the band, I don't think they're are interested in making the loudest records. I have the "1000 Hurts CD". Bob's on GS.
At Action Park still tops it for me though.

The Shellac curated ATP festival in the UK in 2002 is without doubt the best live event Ive ever been to....some incredible music

ARCWELDER
BLONDE REDHEAD
BONNIE PRINCE BILLY
BRICK LAYER CAKE
CHEAP TRICK
CONSONANT
DANIELSON
DAVID LOVERING
DEAD MOON
DIANOGAH
DO MAKE SAY THINK
FLOUR
GODSPEED YOU! BLACK EMPEROR
HIGH DEPENDENCY UNIT
LONESOME ORGANIST
LOW
MARK ROBINSON
MELT BANANA
MISSION OF BURMA
NINA NASTASIA
OXES
PLUSH
P.W. LONG
RACHEL'S
ROBBIE FULKS
SHANNON WRIGHT
SHELLAC
SHIPPING NEWS
SILKWORM
BILL CALLAHAN (SMOG)
THE BREEDERS
THE EX ORKEST
THE FALL
THE NEW YEAR
THE UPPER CRUST
THREE SECOND KISS
THRENODY ENSEMBLE
VERSUS
WIRE
ZENI GEVA
Old 3rd June 2010
  #49
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Table Of Tone's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Clients nearly always go for the dude that can give em the best sounding loudness!
Even when they initially tell you that they're against it, when it finally comes down to business, they want it pushed a little more!

Even if it comes out pretty loud in the end, I never run a ceiling at zero!
I normally run between -0.5 and -0.1.

I'm not sure how much that helps?

Fingers crossed my cuts seem to come across sounding just fine on radio but I may have just been lucky with the particular broadcasting process used at the time?
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